Brexit delayed

[Stom]

This does feel a bit like arguing over whether someone has been fired or forced out by constructive dismissal when the pertinent thing is they don't have a job, but fine, if you want to call people being hounded out of the party by intimidation and threats and/or by disgust at the policies and behaviour of the loony left running the show something else that's all good, for the purposes of this conversation and in the context I'm fine calling a rose a rose.

Intimdation and threats?

Puja

Well yes, and even if not being done with Corbyn's direct approval, it might only be tacit, he's certainly doing little to stop them. And really the people doing them are the sort of people John Smith, Kinnock and so on fought so hard to kick out of the Labour Party and who Corbyn is delighted to see back so he can call them Comrade and sing We'll Keep the Red Flag Flying Here together. Lord only knows how many such reports there have now been, lord only knows how many haven't been reported. Broadly they seem to compromise of threats online, through phone calls and even people shouting things at MPs kids coming out of school, some vandalism against private property and constituency offices, and there's running throughout them and wider discourse in the Labour Party talk of deselection to bring in believers of the true faith.

Both major parties have sadly gone mad at the same time, and whilst there's a critical series of decisions in the offing

Go on then, provide proof of any of this that you didn't read in the Telegraph, Times, Mail, or Express?

I do agree that some politicians have been "pushed" out of the Labour party, but we're talking closet Tories. Let's take Luciana Berger for instance. She was not protected from the abuse because the leadership wanted to get rid of her for her political views.

Yes, that's not a very good look, I agree.

But I also agree she doesn't belong in the Labour party.

But there is a difference between having a lack of backbone and being Boris fucking Johnson.

And if you cannot see that...you're even worse than I already thought you were

[Digby]

This does feel a bit like arguing over whether someone has been fired or forced out by constructive dismissal when the pertinent thing is they don't have a job, but fine, if you want to call people being hounded out of the party by intimidation and threats and/or by disgust at the policies and behaviour of the loony left running the show something else that's all good, for the purposes of this conversation and in the context I'm fine calling a rose a rose.

A] Please, stop making me feel that I have to defend the current labour party - it makes me feel dirty.
B] Please show your evidence - so far, all your doing is repeating Daily Mail type headlines with absolutely no substantiation whatsoever.

We still have more ex-tory than ex-labour MPs - unles you can show me differently - whether they jumped or were pushed.
We still haven't found any ex-labour MPs who were deselected for disagreeing with the leadership.
We now have accusations of threats and intimidation - please show you're evidence.

Leaving of your own accord due to disagreements with the direction the party is taking is absolutely fair and normal (see all those ex-tories). Being deselected or constructive dismissals are another thing entirely (see those other ex-tory MPs).

I never read the Daily Mail, well I might have seen 20 articles this century and even then 15+ of those would be rugby related, though why I need to go and search for the stories when they're myriad to anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention I don't know. I'm not without sympathy for the desire to see a fairer society, and I'm not without sympathy for that idea being to the left of several recent governments (including Blair and Brown) but those defending Corbyn do rather remind my of Lindsey Graham defending Trump, partly the defending or a rather disgusting cult, and partly from the idea that complex problems can be sorted by simplistic populism. (And fwiw I'd add in those defending Boris and Brexit into the same nonsense pot of populism)

[Son of Mathonwy]

We face a huge crisis with one chance only to fix it.

Boris will send us over a cliff which will be very difficult to get back from (leaving the EU without a deal, signing up to an indefinite US trade deal, with who knows what kind of penalties for withdrawal) whereas the most extreme thing Corbyn can do is to remain in the EU and maybe renationalise the railways or a utility. There's nothing that Labour could do which couldn't be reversed by the following government; whereas reversing BJ's actions would be extremely difficult.

Corbyn is far from ideal, but he's the better of the two options.

[Sandydragon]

This does feel a bit like arguing over whether someone has been fired or forced out by constructive dismissal when the pertinent thing is they don't have a job, but fine, if you want to call people being hounded out of the party by intimidation and threats and/or by disgust at the policies and behaviour of the loony left running the show something else that's all good, for the purposes of this conversation and in the context I'm fine calling a rose a rose.

A] Please, stop making me feel that I have to defend the current labour party - it makes me feel dirty.
B] Please show your evidence - so far, all your doing is repeating Daily Mail type headlines with absolutely no substantiation whatsoever.

We still have more ex-tory than ex-labour MPs - unles you can show me differently - whether they jumped or were pushed.
We still haven't found any ex-labour MPs who were deselected for disagreeing with the leadership.
We now have accusations of threats and intimidation - please show you're evidence.

Leaving of your own accord due to disagreements with the direction the party is taking is absolutely fair and normal (see all those ex-tories). Being deselected or constructive dismissals are another thing entirely (see those other ex-tory MPs).

I never read the Daily Mail, well I might have seen 20 articles this century and even then 15+ of those would be rugby related, though why I need to go and search for the stories when they're myriad to anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention I don't know. I'm not without sympathy for the desire to see a fairer society, and I'm not without sympathy for that idea being to the left of several recent governments (including Blair and Brown) but those defending Corbyn do rather remind my of Lindsey Graham defending Trump, partly the defending or a rather disgusting cult, and partly from the idea that complex problems can be sorted by simplistic populism. (And fwiw I'd add in those defending Boris and Brexit into the same nonsense pot of populism)

Amen.

[Stom]

A] Please, stop making me feel that I have to defend the current labour party - it makes me feel dirty.
B] Please show your evidence - so far, all your doing is repeating Daily Mail type headlines with absolutely no substantiation whatsoever.

We still have more ex-tory than ex-labour MPs - unles you can show me differently - whether they jumped or were pushed.
We still haven't found any ex-labour MPs who were deselected for disagreeing with the leadership.
We now have accusations of threats and intimidation - please show you're evidence.

Leaving of your own accord due to disagreements with the direction the party is taking is absolutely fair and normal (see all those ex-tories). Being deselected or constructive dismissals are another thing entirely (see those other ex-tory MPs).

I never read the Daily Mail, well I might have seen 20 articles this century and even then 15+ of those would be rugby related, though why I need to go and search for the stories when they're myriad to anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention I don't know. I'm not without sympathy for the desire to see a fairer society, and I'm not without sympathy for that idea being to the left of several recent governments (including Blair and Brown) but those defending Corbyn do rather remind my of Lindsey Graham defending Trump, partly the defending or a rather disgusting cult, and partly from the idea that complex problems can be sorted by simplistic populism. (And fwiw I'd add in those defending Boris and Brexit into the same nonsense pot of populism)

Amen.

So, again, you'd rather a No Deal Brexit and potentially disastrous trade deal with the US than hold your nose and vote for Corbyn?

[Digby]

I never read the Daily Mail, well I might have seen 20 articles this century and even then 15+ of those would be rugby related, though why I need to go and search for the stories when they're myriad to anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention I don't know. I'm not without sympathy for the desire to see a fairer society, and I'm not without sympathy for that idea being to the left of several recent governments (including Blair and Brown) but those defending Corbyn do rather remind my of Lindsey Graham defending Trump, partly the defending or a rather disgusting cult, and partly from the idea that complex problems can be sorted by simplistic populism. (And fwiw I'd add in those defending Boris and Brexit into the same nonsense pot of populism)

Amen.

So, again, you'd rather a No Deal Brexit and potentially disastrous trade deal with the US than hold your nose and vote for Corbyn?

Boris says he doesn't want No Deal, as does Jeremy. I don't trust either of them, and that is a problem. If I'm going to break it down then the Labour Party position is stronger on Europe given my bias than the Tories, but Boris is probably a far bigger believer in the EU than Jeremy, so it's playing swings and roundabouts where both outcomes are just terrible

I'd like to be able to trust Jeremy will be guided by Keir Starmer in the event he gained power, but as I don't trust him then in advance it seems just as likely he'll be guided by some Momentum prat.

I'd say this much for Jeremy, as much as I dislike him I honestly think he's not in this for himself, I think he genuinely is in it for the people or what he thinks the people are, whereas the is a little something about Boris which perhaps suggests he's in this for Boris

[Which Tyler]

I never read the Daily Mail, well I might have seen 20 articles this century and even then 15+ of those would be rugby related, though why I need to go and search for the stories when they're myriad to anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention I don't know. I'm not without sympathy for the desire to see a fairer society, and I'm not without sympathy for that idea being to the left of several recent governments (including Blair and Brown) but those defending Corbyn do rather remind my of Lindsey Graham defending Trump, partly the defending or a rather disgusting cult, and partly from the idea that complex problems can be sorted by simplistic populism. (And fwiw I'd add in those defending Boris and Brexit into the same nonsense pot of populism)

OK,so no examples, and no evidence, just a general disgust for anything to do with Corbyn, for no reason beyond those things being to do with Corbyn.
Seems to be one of those things that "everyone knows". It's amazing how infrequently things that "everyone knows" are the same as "things that are true".

[Digby]

I never read the Daily Mail, well I might have seen 20 articles this century and even then 15+ of those would be rugby related, though why I need to go and search for the stories when they're myriad to anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention I don't know. I'm not without sympathy for the desire to see a fairer society, and I'm not without sympathy for that idea being to the left of several recent governments (including Blair and Brown) but those defending Corbyn do rather remind my of Lindsey Graham defending Trump, partly the defending or a rather disgusting cult, and partly from the idea that complex problems can be sorted by simplistic populism. (And fwiw I'd add in those defending Boris and Brexit into the same nonsense pot of populism)

OK,so no examples, and no evidence, just a general disgust for anything to do with Corbyn, for no reason beyond those things being to do with Corbyn.
Seems to be one of those things that "everyone knows". It's amazing how infrequently things that "everyone knows" are the same as "things that are true".

There are lots of examples and lots of statements from those involved/on the receiving end. I suppose it's possible they're all lying, I haven't made any effort to for instance visit their homes or constituency offices to check if shit really was smeared on them, or if windows really were bricked in, nor have I looked on their social media accounts to see if the vile abuse they say they're receiving is still up (or even visible in the first place), but such behaviour from Momentum against those acting as they see it against the interests of socialism and thus the greater good doesn't in any way surprise me

[Which Tyler]

I'll give you a hand then (via Wiki, so a pinch of salt and all that) - which of these are essentially constructive dismissal?

Jared O'Mara (Sheffield Hallam) – initially suspended for sexist and homophobic comments
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton) – suspended for sexual misconduct
Ivan Lewis (Bury South) – suspended for sexual harassment
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) – suspended for sexual harassment
Frank Field (Birkenhead) – You could be right here, though as far as I'm aware he was calling out his constituency party, not Corbyn
Fiona Onasanya (Peterborough) – expelled for perverting the course of justice
Luciana Berge (Liverpool Wavertree) – resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Ann Coffey (Stockport) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Angela Smith (Peninstone and Stockbridge) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
China Umuna (Streatham) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Joan Ryan (Enfield North) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Ian Austin (Dudley North) – You could be right here – accused Corbyn of creating an atmosphere of intolerance
Chris Williamson (Derby North) – suspended because he felt no need to apologise for anti-semitism
Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) – suspended for sexual harassment
Louise Ellman (Liverpool Riverside) – resigned due to anti-semitism and dislike of Corbyn
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) – suspended due to current scandal
Lindsey Hoyle (Chorley) – new speaker of the house


I make that 2 possible cases of "intimidation and threats", 2 with an openly personal issue with Corbyn, and 0 who've been deselected for not following the party line.
Obviously a purging of the moderates completely on a par with Boris's 21 outright firings and however many other leaving of their own accord.

[Digby]

And it's your consideration none of these people were facing ongoing criticism of a nature many people, including many still inside the Labour Party whether MPs or not (just sadly not the leadership team), find reprehensible?

[Which Tyler]

And it's your consideration none of these people were facing ongoing criticism of a nature many people, including many still inside the Labour Party whether MPs or not (just sadly not the leadership team), find reprehensible?

No, that's not my consideration.
My consideration is that I'm not going to believe malicious rumour spread by a continuous campaign by the right wing, without some form of evidence.

And I'm certainly not going to call the above list "a purge", equivalent to Johnson's purge, or hard and fast evidence of an orchestrated campaign of threats and intimidation. Nor will I use the above list to say that Labour have remotely equivalent to the conservatives when it comes to bullying, deselecting etc etc.

No-one in the labour ranks is as publicly reknowned for bullying as Dominic Cummings is.
Not one single ex-labour MP has been deselected due to disagreeing with the leadership.

There is no equivalence to draw; doing so is pure deflection by the right.

[Which Tyler]

For the sake of transparency; here's the conservative equivalent of that list:

Charlie Elphicke (Dover) - suspended for sexual assault
Anna Soubry (Broxstowe) - resigned due to Brexit and tory lurch to the right
Heidi Allen (South Cambridgshire) - resigned due to Brexit and tory lurch to the right
Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) - resigned due to Brexit
Phillip Lee (Bracknell) - resigned due to Brexit and tory lurch to the right
Amber Rudd (Hastings & Rye) - resigned due to Brexit and tory deselections
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) - deselected for voting against the leadership
David Gauke (South West Hertfordshire) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Justine Greening (Putney) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Anne Milton (Guildford) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Antoinette Sandbach (Eddisbury) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Richard Benyon (Newbury) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Steve Brine (Winchester) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Richard Harrington (Watford) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Margot James (Stourbridge) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Ed Vaizey (Wantage) - deselected for voting against the leadership

[Sandydragon]

I'll give you a hand then (via Wiki, so a pinch of salt and all that) - which of these are essentially constructive dismissal?

Jared O'Mara (Sheffield Hallam) – initially suspended for sexist and homophobic comments
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton) – suspended for sexual misconduct
Ivan Lewis (Bury South) – suspended for sexual harassment
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) – suspended for sexual harassment
Frank Field (Birkenhead) – You could be right here, though as far as I'm aware he was calling out his constituency party, not Corbyn
Fiona Onasanya (Peterborough) – expelled for perverting the course of justice
Luciana Berge (Liverpool Wavertree) – resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Ann Coffey (Stockport) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Angela Smith (Peninstone and Stockbridge) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
China Umuna (Streatham) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Joan Ryan (Enfield North) - resigned due to Brexit and anti-semitism
Ian Austin (Dudley North) – You could be right here – accused Corbyn of creating an atmosphere of intolerance
Chris Williamson (Derby North) – suspended because he felt no need to apologise for anti-semitism
Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) – suspended for sexual harassment
Louise Ellman (Liverpool Riverside) – resigned due to anti-semitism and dislike of Corbyn
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) – suspended due to current scandal
Lindsey Hoyle (Chorley) – new speaker of the house


I make that 2 possible cases of "intimidation and threats", 2 with an openly personal issue with Corbyn, and 0 who've been deselected for not following the party line.
Obviously a purging of the moderates completely on a par with Boris's 21 outright firings and however many other leaving of their own accord.

Not withstanding the points you make about the Labour leadership, does that not strike you as a long list of suspensions for inappropriate behaviour/ criminal activities? On a serious note, is that Labour having a few issues or perhaps better at identifying a problem, sexual harassment?

[Banquo]

For the sake of transparency; here's the conservative equivalent of that list:

Charlie Elphicke (Dover) - suspended for sexual assault
Anna Soubry (Broxstowe) - resigned due to Brexit and tory lurch to the right
Heidi Allen (South Cambridgshire) - resigned due to Brexit and tory lurch to the right
Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) - resigned due to Brexit
Phillip Lee (Bracknell) - resigned due to Brexit and tory lurch to the right
Amber Rudd (Hastings & Rye) - resigned due to Brexit and tory deselections
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) - deselected for voting against the leadership
David Gauke (South West Hertfordshire) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Justine Greening (Putney) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Anne Milton (Guildford) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Antoinette Sandbach (Eddisbury) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Richard Benyon (Newbury) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Steve Brine (Winchester) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Richard Harrington (Watford) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Margot James (Stourbridge) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) - deselected for voting against the leadership
Ed Vaizey (Wantage) - deselected for voting against the leadership

For the sake of accuracy, you might want to check this list and the descriptions.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Amen.

So, again, you'd rather a No Deal Brexit and potentially disastrous trade deal with the US than hold your nose and vote for Corbyn?

Boris says he doesn't want No Deal, as does Jeremy. I don't trust either of them, and that is a problem. If I'm going to break it down then the Labour Party position is stronger on Europe given my bias than the Tories, but Boris is probably a far bigger believer in the EU than Jeremy, so it's playing swings and roundabouts where both outcomes are just terrible

I'd like to be able to trust Jeremy will be guided by Keir Starmer in the event he gained power, but as I don't trust him then in advance it seems just as likely he'll be guided by some Momentum prat.

I'd say this much for Jeremy, as much as I dislike him I honestly think he's not in this for himself, I think he genuinely is in it for the people or what he thinks the people are, whereas the is a little something about Boris which perhaps suggests he's in this for Boris

No amount of argument from us is likely to change your mind (that's not how people change their minds). And it would take a huge swing from Tory to Labour to affect your constituency anyway.

In the end, you are aware of the facts, and you'll make whatever decision you're comfortable with.

[Digby]

And it's your consideration none of these people were facing ongoing criticism of a nature many people, including many still inside the Labour Party whether MPs or not (just sadly not the leadership team), find reprehensible?

No, that's not my consideration.
My consideration is that I'm not going to believe malicious rumour spread by a continuous campaign by the right wing, without some form of evidence.

And I'm certainly not going to call the above list "a purge", equivalent to Johnson's purge, or hard and fast evidence of an orchestrated campaign of threats and intimidation. Nor will I use the above list to say that Labour have remotely equivalent to the conservatives when it comes to bullying, deselecting etc etc.

No-one in the labour ranks is as publicly reknowned for bullying as Dominic Cummings is.
Not one single ex-labour MP has been deselected due to disagreeing with the leadership.

There is no equivalence to draw; doing so is pure deflection by the right.

Most of my news is consumed watching Channel 4 News, listing to Today (and PM but rarely, too early), reading the Times (paper version), or watching Newsnight. Point being that doesn't make referencing stories I've heard/read all that easy, and I'm ill inclined to spend time researching something I've already heard extended testimony about from numerous sources.

And there are worse than Cummings on the Labour side and the Tory side, actually on Cummings I don't see how he can be bullying them much, most of them have never spoken to him.

[Which Tyler]

Not withstanding the points you make about the Labour leadership, does that not strike you as a long list of suspensions for inappropriate behaviour/ criminal activities? On a serious note, is that Labour having a few issues or perhaps better at identifying a problem, sexual harassment?

Yeah, I thought that when writing it out

For the sake of accuracy, you might want to check this list and the descriptions.

Care to give me a hint? I took it straight from wiki

[Banquo]

Not withstanding the points you make about the Labour leadership, does that not strike you as a long list of suspensions for inappropriate behaviour/ criminal activities? On a serious note, is that Labour having a few issues or perhaps better at identifying a problem, sexual harassment?

Yeah, I thought that when writing it out

For the sake of accuracy, you might want to check this list and the descriptions.

Care to give me a hint? I took it straight from wiki

might want to check who had the whip restored- and that having the whip removed does not equal deselection necessarily.

[Which Tyler]

might want to check who had the whip restored- and that having the whip removed does not equal deselection necessarily.

I'm good with that.
They were fired for disagreeing with the leadership, which is what this discussion was about.
That they got their jobs back again after Cockwomble got what he wanted is immaterial not the fact that they were fired initially.

And no, I'm not going into the technicality of calling it a job, when they actually kept their job, just not as representatives of their party, as that has nothing to do with the point.

Whichnis a maximum of 2 labour MP were subject to constructive dismissal, whilst 10 times as many conservative MPs were subject to actual dismissal.
That those verifiable facts do not equate to "labour are less tolerant of disagreement than the conservatives" or even "both sides do it" or even "labour also purged their parliamentary party of those who disagree with the leadership".


As for Digby's later point that he gets his news from multiple sources, and therefore can't name a single example or provide a source for anyone at all who has quit the labour party over threats and intimidation from the leadership for honest political disagreement, despite being given a list of every labour who has left the party since the last GE...
That's called bias / conspiracy theory "I see the evidence, butni known what I know, and the evidence must be wrong"

[Digby]

The ERG are comparable in some instances to Momentum, though I don't know they've been physically attacking offices, whether putting bricks through windows or smearing shit onto doors and windows, I'm also not sure the ERG have been sending online abuse as have Momentum, though without doubt some morons partially inspired by the ERG/BNP/Brexit Party have been sending abuse up to and including death threats.

However, whilst not wanting to defend the Tories overly the problem I was alluding to with Labour is that Corbyn is either implicitly approving of or turning a blind eye to the actions of those on the left of his party in the name of the greater good and that creates a problem for me when it comes to the idea of voting Labour. Whereas I don't have that problem with the Conservative party because I'm not even considering voting for them, my comments being directed at Labour are down to my considering whether I can hold my nose and vote Labour given they're more my cup of tea on Brexit, or whether that's going too far and abandoning principle.

And Labour have had a long time to address these problems, and consistently for whatever reason they do not seem to care. If you want to look into it then by all means track down comments from the likes of Margaret Hodge, Luciana Berger, Jess Phillips, Sadiq Khan... they and others have made plenty of comments on the abuse they've received or their thoughts on abuse their colleagues are receiving from within the Labour movement. I've no interest in making any of this stuff up, I'd like to be able to vote Labour given they've something of a better policy on Brexit, but I also haven't been noting times and dates when I've heard people being live interviewed on radio or TV, and that does make it tricky to reference

[Sandydragon]

The ERG are comparable in some instances to Momentum, though I don't know they've been physically attacking offices, whether putting bricks through windows or smearing shit onto doors and windows, I'm also not sure the ERG have been sending online abuse as have Momentum, though without doubt some morons partially inspired by the ERG/BNP/Brexit Party have been sending abuse up to and including death threats.

However, whilst not wanting to defend the Tories overly the problem I was alluding to with Labour is that Corbyn is either implicitly approving of or turning a blind eye to the actions of those on the left of his party in the name of the greater good and that creates a problem for me when it comes to the idea of voting Labour. Whereas I don't have that problem with the Conservative party because I'm not even considering voting for them, my comments being directed at Labour are down to my considering whether I can hold my nose and vote Labour given they're more my cup of tea on Brexit, or whether that's going too far and abandoning principle.

And Labour have had a long time to address these problems, and consistently for whatever reason they do not seem to care. If you want to look into it then by all means track down comments from the likes of Margaret Hodge, Luciana Berger, Jess Phillips, Sadiq Khan... they and others have made plenty of comments on the abuse they've received or their thoughts on abuse their colleagues are receiving from within the Labour movement. I've no interest in making any of this stuff up, I'd like to be able to vote Labour given they've something of a better policy on Brexit, but I also haven't been noting times and dates when I've heard people being live interviewed on radio or TV, and that does make it tricky to reference

The ERG are a bit more sophisticated in that they prefer to set the conditions for others to do the dirty work. Their language during Brexit and before has been at times incendiary and they have no problem in allowing others to take direct action on the back of that whilst telling the world 'not our fault guv'. Equally the wider party membership which supports the ERG wouldn't dream of beating up an immigrant (most of them are elderly anyway) but their language and supports allows such things to happen.

[Stom]

So the Brexit party have thrown their support behind Boris. Now we know for sure that's the party of xenophobes.

The Lib Dems need to change their bloody campaign or risk it all. I will be absolutely livid with them if there's no deal on the back of their actions. And let's not pretend it isn't. If they try to take votes away from Labour and those seats go to the Brexit party, they've lost it all for no reason other than nonsense.

[Digby]

You could say the same thing about Labour and the Lib Dems in reverse, though I hope nobody would because they're neither Labour nor Lib Dem votes, they're the voters' votes. Fwiw I doubt the Lib Dems would be too cross if people were livid with them, the typical situation they find themselves in is being an irrelevance, so at least people being cross with them acknowledges their existence, before they go back to nothingness

[Sandydragon]

So the Brexit party have thrown their support behind Boris. Now we know for sure that's the party of xenophobes.

The Lib Dems need to change their bloody campaign or risk it all. I will be absolutely livid with them if there's no deal on the back of their actions. And let's not pretend it isn't. If they try to take votes away from Labour and those seats go to the Brexit party, they've lost it all for no reason other than nonsense.

All the anti-Brexit parties need to cooperate. The party with the best shot vs the Conservatives should be given a free run, regardless of which party it is.

Interestingly thought, Farage has agreed not to stand against existing Tory MPs, but will still compete in Labour and Liberal held areas. So that means that the Tories trying to keep their seats have an easier ride on the whole (although some will have Labour or Lib Dems breathing down their necks) but those seats which Boris is trying to take to actually form a majority will still have a Brexit party candidate as well. Farage has made it easier for the Conservatives to hold their current seats but not get a majority.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Labour and the LibDems really need to make a pact now.

I did a quick, super-simplistic analysis based on the 2017 results. If Labour and the Lib Dems made way for each other where appropriate, Labour could have won an extra 31 seats and the Lib Dems an extra 8. Which would have given Labour a small majority.

Of course, a lot of things have changed, but it would make a lot of sense to stand aside for each other in 50 or so seats (seats they have no chance of winning anyway).