Shots Fired on London Bridge

[Sandydragon]

There are reports that one of those who tackled the perpetrator was on day release from a murder sentence. If true, it kind of sums up how difficult this parole/tagging/day release business is. Not really a case of right or wrong, just people making educated guesses.

Indeed. Lots of prisoners get released on license and do no further harm. It’s not an exact science.

[Digby]

There are reports that one of those who tackled the perpetrator was on day release from a murder sentence. If true, it kind of sums up how difficult this parole/tagging/day release business is. Not really a case of right or wrong, just people making educated guesses.

Indeed. Lots of prisoners get released on license and do no further harm. It’s not an exact science.

I heard a report that one of the people involved in sitting on the offender was themselves a released prisoner, and he's now a hero. And at least one of the heroes is also a Pole, as has been noted by others, damn immigrants coming over here and dealing with our terrorists

[Sandydragon]

There are reports that one of those who tackled the perpetrator was on day release from a murder sentence. If true, it kind of sums up how difficult this parole/tagging/day release business is. Not really a case of right or wrong, just people making educated guesses.

Indeed. Lots of prisoners get released on license and do no further harm. It’s not an exact science.

I heard a report that one of the people involved in sitting on the offender was themselves a released prisoner, and he's now a hero. And at least one of the heroes is also a Pole, as has been noted by others, damn immigrants coming over here and dealing with our terrorists

I’m picturing the editor of the Daily Mail melting down with that information.

[Mellsblue]

ISIL have claimed the attack as their’s but intelligence services say there is no evidence to corroborate.


The Times:
‘A Cambridge law graduate killed in the London Bridge terror attack has been described by his father as a “beautiful spirit”.
Jack Merritt, 25, is one of two people who died during knifeman Usman Khan’s rampage on Friday afternoon.’

[Sandydragon]

ISIL have claimed the attack as their’s but intelligence services say there is no evidence to corroborate.


The Times:
‘A Cambridge law graduate killed in the London Bridge terror attack has been described by his father as a “beautiful spirit”.
Jack Merritt, 25, is one of two people who died during knifeman Usman Khan’s rampage on Friday afternoon.’

At best inspired by them. It’s likely that this could be a personal thing as much as an ideological things.

[Digby]

ISIL have claimed the attack as their’s but intelligence services say there is no evidence to corroborate.


The Times:
‘A Cambridge law graduate killed in the London Bridge terror attack has been described by his father as a “beautiful spirit”.
Jack Merritt, 25, is one of two people who died during knifeman Usman Khan’s rampage on Friday afternoon.’

At best inspired by them. It’s likely that this could be a personal thing as much as an ideological things.

Given the fake suicide vest it's an extreme personal thing, it feels very different to carrying a knife and losing his temper with the event he'd been attending and that there very likely was some plan involved.

It's been noted his poor father said Jack wouldn't want anyone using his death as an excuse to sanction more draconian sentences for prisoners, which will present a difficult balancing act for those who in election season have already commented strongly on our incarceration processes

[Son of Mathonwy]

ISIL have claimed the attack as their’s but intelligence services say there is no evidence to corroborate.


The Times:
‘A Cambridge law graduate killed in the London Bridge terror attack has been described by his father as a “beautiful spirit”.
Jack Merritt, 25, is one of two people who died during knifeman Usman Khan’s rampage on Friday afternoon.’

At best inspired by them. It’s likely that this could be a personal thing as much as an ideological things.

Given the fake suicide vest it's an extreme personal thing, it feels very different to carrying a knife and losing his temper with the event he'd been attending and that there very likely was some plan involved.

It's been noted his poor father said Jack wouldn't want anyone using his death as an excuse to sanction more draconian sentences for prisoners, which will present a difficult balancing act for those who in election season have already commented strongly on our incarceration processes

Hopefully more money can be found for probation services and other functions that attempt to transition prisoners back to the real world. Not saying it would necessarily helped in this case. More police on the streets might have, though.

[Digby]

At best inspired by them. It’s likely that this could be a personal thing as much as an ideological things.

Given the fake suicide vest it's an extreme personal thing, it feels very different to carrying a knife and losing his temper with the event he'd been attending and that there very likely was some plan involved.

It's been noted his poor father said Jack wouldn't want anyone using his death as an excuse to sanction more draconian sentences for prisoners, which will present a difficult balancing act for those who in election season have already commented strongly on our incarceration processes

Hopefully more money can be found for probation services and other funcions that attempt to transition prisoners back to the real world. Not saying it would necessarily helped in this case. More police on the streets might have, though.

No idea where the more money comes from other than the same place as the rest of the money coming from nobody knows. For myself I'd want to look at mental health services, education and community services, and wonder again just why we've the ambition to lock up in prison so many who're some mix of being the stupidest, poorest and most mentally challenged amongst us? Essentially there are likely enough places in prison, and if we didn't fill it with so many petty criminal we'd have space to keep in serious prisoners for longer and actually work on some rehabilitation - this almost certainly requires some shift on legalising or at least decriminalisation of (some) drugs

[Stom]

Given the fake suicide vest it's an extreme personal thing, it feels very different to carrying a knife and losing his temper with the event he'd been attending and that there very likely was some plan involved.

It's been noted his poor father said Jack wouldn't want anyone using his death as an excuse to sanction more draconian sentences for prisoners, which will present a difficult balancing act for those who in election season have already commented strongly on our incarceration processes

Hopefully more money can be found for probation services and other funcions that attempt to transition prisoners back to the real world. Not saying it would necessarily helped in this case. More police on the streets might have, though.

No idea where the more money comes from other than the same place as the rest of the money coming from nobody knows. For myself I'd want to look at mental health services, education and community services, and wonder again just why we've the ambition to lock up in prison so many who're some mix of being the stupidest, poorest and most mentally challenged amongst us? Essentially there are likely enough places in prison, and if we didn't fill it with so many petty criminal we'd have space to keep in serious prisoners for longer and actually work on some rehabilitation - this almost certainly requires some shift on legalising or at least decriminalisation of (some) drugs

Well, indeed.

[Mellsblue]

Hopefully more money can be found for probation services and other funcions that attempt to transition prisoners back to the real world. Not saying it would necessarily helped in this case. More police on the streets might have, though.

No idea where the more money comes from other than the same place as the rest of the money coming from nobody knows. For myself I'd want to look at mental health services, education and community services, and wonder again just why we've the ambition to lock up in prison so many who're some mix of being the stupidest, poorest and most mentally challenged amongst us? Essentially there are likely enough places in prison, and if we didn't fill it with so many petty criminal we'd have space to keep in serious prisoners for longer and actually work on some rehabilitation - this almost certainly requires some shift on legalising or at least decriminalisation of (some) drugs

Well, indeed.

Thirded.

I know virtually nothing about the prison services and all the issues that surround it, bar the stuff that makes the news, (but when has that ever stopped any of us offering an opinion) and I’d start from a position of only incarcerating those that are a danger to the public. The rest would receive education, if required, and enrol on community service. Community service wouldn’t just be picking up litter etc but a two way process in which the local community gains, primarily, and the criminal gains too. I’d also be educating those in prison.
Being a horrible Tory, it’s not just an altruistic position but about £££. I’ll never understand why we spend circa £60k a year to stick someone in a prison cell with little provision to help them not reoffend. Educate them and you might save yourself a further £60k a year and receive tax receipts from when they get a job.
Along the lines of the above, I have a serious respect for Timpson’s employment philosophy.

[Puja]

No idea where the more money comes from other than the same place as the rest of the money coming from nobody knows. For myself I'd want to look at mental health services, education and community services, and wonder again just why we've the ambition to lock up in prison so many who're some mix of being the stupidest, poorest and most mentally challenged amongst us? Essentially there are likely enough places in prison, and if we didn't fill it with so many petty criminal we'd have space to keep in serious prisoners for longer and actually work on some rehabilitation - this almost certainly requires some shift on legalising or at least decriminalisation of (some) drugs

Well, indeed.

Thirded.

I know virtually nothing about the prison services and all the issues that surround it, bar the stuff that makes the news, (but when has that ever stopped any of us offering an opinion) and I’d start from a position of only incarcerating those that are a danger to the public. The rest would receive education, if required, and enrol on community service. Community service wouldn’t just be picking up litter etc but a two way process in which the local community gains, primarily, and the criminal gains too. I’d also be educating those in prison.
Being a horrible Tory, it’s not just an altruistic position but about £££. I’ll never understand why we spend circa £60k a year to stick someone in a prison cell with little provision to help them not reoffend. Educate them and you might save yourself a further £60k a year and receive tax receipts from when they get a job.
Along the lines of the above, I have a serious respect for Timpson’s employment philosophy.

Agreed - it's far cheaper to reduce crime at the very outset than it is to hire XX,000 extra police officers and put in XX,000 extra prison places. Unfortunately, from a political perspective, it's something for the greater good that has a long lead-in time, so it's spending money to create a drop in crime for a future government. I don't think there's a doubt that the uptick in crime and ASB has been helped along by austerity closing the SureStarts and youth clubs.

Puja

[Stom]

No idea where the more money comes from other than the same place as the rest of the money coming from nobody knows. For myself I'd want to look at mental health services, education and community services, and wonder again just why we've the ambition to lock up in prison so many who're some mix of being the stupidest, poorest and most mentally challenged amongst us? Essentially there are likely enough places in prison, and if we didn't fill it with so many petty criminal we'd have space to keep in serious prisoners for longer and actually work on some rehabilitation - this almost certainly requires some shift on legalising or at least decriminalisation of (some) drugs

Well, indeed.

Thirded.

I know virtually nothing about the prison services and all the issues that surround it, bar the stuff that makes the news, (but when has that ever stopped any of us offering an opinion) and I’d start from a position of only incarcerating those that are a danger to the public. The rest would receive education, if required, and enrol on community service. Community service wouldn’t just be picking up litter etc but a two way process in which the local community gains, primarily, and the criminal gains too. I’d also be educating those in prison.
Being a horrible Tory, it’s not just an altruistic position but about £££. I’ll never understand why we spend circa £60k a year to stick someone in a prison cell with little provision to help them not reoffend. Educate them and you might save yourself a further £60k a year and receive tax receipts from when they get a job.
Along the lines of the above, I have a serious respect for Timpson’s employment philosophy.

I did take a course in law and justice at LSE, but that was 15 years ago and if I’m honest, I can’t remember too much about it.

I agree that education should be a priority, but you do need to draw a line somewhere

[Mellsblue]

Well, indeed.

Thirded.

I know virtually nothing about the prison services and all the issues that surround it, bar the stuff that makes the news, (but when has that ever stopped any of us offering an opinion) and I’d start from a position of only incarcerating those that are a danger to the public. The rest would receive education, if required, and enrol on community service. Community service wouldn’t just be picking up litter etc but a two way process in which the local community gains, primarily, and the criminal gains too. I’d also be educating those in prison.
Being a horrible Tory, it’s not just an altruistic position but about £££. I’ll never understand why we spend circa £60k a year to stick someone in a prison cell with little provision to help them not reoffend. Educate them and you might save yourself a further £60k a year and receive tax receipts from when they get a job.
Along the lines of the above, I have a serious respect for Timpson’s employment philosophy.

Agreed - it's far cheaper to reduce crime at the very outset than it is to hire XX,000 extra police officers and put in XX,000 extra prison places. Unfortunately, from a political perspective, it's something for the greater good that has a long lead-in time, so it's spending money to create a drop in crime for a future government. I don't think there's a doubt that the uptick in crime and ASB has been helped along by austerity closing the SureStarts and youth clubs.

Puja

Is that last bit true? Both the uptick in crime, with context, and it being caused by closing SureStarts and youth centres?
From what I’ve read, crime is pretty much level but ‘new’ crimes - hate crimes & those facilitated by the internet - crimes where victims now feel more comfortable coming forward - eg rape - and knife crimes - correlating to the down grading of stop and search - are pushing stats up slightly. That’s to say, there is more crime but it’s not just about the bottom line figure.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ngjune2019

Plenty of evidence that SureStarts weren’t particularly successful and I thought they were/are a top class idea.

[Puja]

Thirded.

I know virtually nothing about the prison services and all the issues that surround it, bar the stuff that makes the news, (but when has that ever stopped any of us offering an opinion) and I’d start from a position of only incarcerating those that are a danger to the public. The rest would receive education, if required, and enrol on community service. Community service wouldn’t just be picking up litter etc but a two way process in which the local community gains, primarily, and the criminal gains too. I’d also be educating those in prison.
Being a horrible Tory, it’s not just an altruistic position but about £££. I’ll never understand why we spend circa £60k a year to stick someone in a prison cell with little provision to help them not reoffend. Educate them and you might save yourself a further £60k a year and receive tax receipts from when they get a job.
Along the lines of the above, I have a serious respect for Timpson’s employment philosophy.

Agreed - it's far cheaper to reduce crime at the very outset than it is to hire XX,000 extra police officers and put in XX,000 extra prison places. Unfortunately, from a political perspective, it's something for the greater good that has a long lead-in time, so it's spending money to create a drop in crime for a future government. I don't think there's a doubt that the uptick in crime and ASB has been helped along by austerity closing the SureStarts and youth clubs.

Puja

Is that last bit true? Both the uptick in crime, with context, and it being caused by closing SureStarts and youth centres?
From what I’ve read, crime is pretty much level but ‘new’ crimes - hate crimes & those facilitated by the internet - crimes where victims now feel more comfortable coming forward - eg rape - and knife crimes - correlating to the down grading of stop and search - are pushing stats up slightly. That’s to say, there is more crime but it’s not just about the bottom line figure.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ngjune2019

Plenty of evidence that SureStarts weren’t particularly successful and I thought they were/are a top class idea.

You know, I don't actually know for certain. Had taken it as a truism that ASB and petty crime was up, although that may just be because I've moved house from Bath to Trowbridge during this government! I'm willing to be corrected by statistics, although I'm not sure how many petty crimes are reported nowadays as people lose faith that the police will actually do anything about it.

What was the evidence/arguments against SureStarts?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Agreed - it's far cheaper to reduce crime at the very outset than it is to hire XX,000 extra police officers and put in XX,000 extra prison places. Unfortunately, from a political perspective, it's something for the greater good that has a long lead-in time, so it's spending money to create a drop in crime for a future government. I don't think there's a doubt that the uptick in crime and ASB has been helped along by austerity closing the SureStarts and youth clubs.

Puja

Is that last bit true? Both the uptick in crime, with context, and it being caused by closing SureStarts and youth centres?
From what I’ve read, crime is pretty much level but ‘new’ crimes - hate crimes & those facilitated by the internet - crimes where victims now feel more comfortable coming forward - eg rape - and knife crimes - correlating to the down grading of stop and search - are pushing stats up slightly. That’s to say, there is more crime but it’s not just about the bottom line figure.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ngjune2019

Plenty of evidence that SureStarts weren’t particularly successful and I thought they were/are a top class idea.

You know, I don't actually know for certain. Had taken it as a truism that ASB and petty crime was up, although that may just be because I've moved house from Bath to Trowbridge during this government! I'm willing to be corrected by statistics, although I'm not sure how many petty crimes are reported nowadays as people lose faith that the police will actually do anything about it.

What was the evidence/arguments against SureStarts?

Puja

Certain crimes are up but overall I believe it’s fairly flat. For those crimes that have dropped off, and there is stuff about showing that people aren’t reporting as much ’petty’ stuff - there’s one statistic I saw about burglary that once you take into account the % believed to be reported and then then % in which the perpetrator is caught that made me consider burglary as a career - there are ‘new‘ crimes such as internet fraud and hate crimes becoming more prevalent, crimes such as rape and hate crimes, again, that people now feel more confident coming forward about - though, I believe rape reporting rates are now dropping again - and, obviously, knife crime - mostly attributed to less bobbies on the beat and relaxation of stop and search - that keep the numbers flattish.

Can’t remember details on SureStarts. There was a study against some metrics in areas where SureStarts had set up. There was little to no improvement in those areas. Iirc, the Cameron govt only removed funding for SureStarts in better off postcodes initially but after the report removed it completely in favour of targeting problem families directly.

Far from an expert on any of this, though.

[Banquo]

There are reports that one of those who tackled the perpetrator was on day release from a murder sentence. If true, it kind of sums up how difficult this parole/tagging/day release business is. Not really a case of right or wrong, just people making educated guesses.

Indeed. Lots of prisoners get released on license and do no further harm. It’s not an exact science.

I heard a report that one of the people involved in sitting on the offender was themselves a released prisoner, and he's now a hero. And at least one of the heroes is also a Pole, as has been noted by others, damn immigrants coming over here and dealing with our terrorists

Hardly surprising given the event that the perpetrator targeted.

[Digby]

Indeed. Lots of prisoners get released on license and do no further harm. It’s not an exact science.

I heard a report that one of the people involved in sitting on the offender was themselves a released prisoner, and he's now a hero. And at least one of the heroes is also a Pole, as has been noted by others, damn immigrants coming over here and dealing with our terrorists

Hardly surprising given the event that the perpetrator targeted.

Absolutely

[Sandydragon]

The speed with which both campaigns jump on events like this is disgusting. Boris blames the previous Labour government which is frankly ludicrous and no one really believes that Corbyn would be thought in potential terrorists.

[Mellsblue]

In contrast to our politicians:
the three people fighting the nutter were called Andy, Lukasz and Mohammed. Well done modern Britain. Well done.
Not sure which was the most British act. Andy with his fire extinguisher, Lukasz with the narwhal tusk or Mohammed who went straight back to his job after tackling someone he thought was a suicide bomber.
Heroes, all three.

[Which Tyler]

In contrast to our politicians:
the three people fighting the nutter were called Andy, Lukasz and Mohammed. Well done modern Britain. Well done.
Not sure which was the most British act. Andy with his fire extinguisher, Lukasz with the narwhal tusk or Mohammed who went straight back to his job after tackling someone he thought was a suicide bomber.
Heroes, all three.

[Puja]

In contrast to our politicians:
the three people fighting the nutter were called Andy, Lukasz and Mohammed. Well done modern Britain. Well done.
Not sure which was the most British act. Andy with his fire extinguisher, Lukasz with the narwhal tusk or Mohammed who went straight back to his job after tackling someone he thought was a suicide bomber.
Heroes, all three.

78227459_10157388348051201_6273611299943350272_n.jpg

Puja

[Sandydragon]

In contrast to our politicians:
the three people fighting the nutter were called Andy, Lukasz and Mohammed. Well done modern Britain. Well done.
Not sure which was the most British act. Andy with his fire extinguisher, Lukasz with the narwhal tusk or Mohammed who went straight back to his job after tackling someone he thought was a suicide bomber.
Heroes, all three.

Damn right.