Digby wrote:
His target as things stand is to be better than Farrell, and he's showing little to nothing at even trying to take on that hurdle
Why do you say that? In the way Sarries play, he has no platform to show what he can or can't do as a distributor.
Partly the platform and style and partly he just doesn't, which is what I'd expect from a kid who runs so well but you'd also want more by now. Quite possible he does have a passing game, I'd just like to see it, it might even suit Sarries if there were other ways to get the ball to their 15 than opposition kicks
well quite. You seemed to be sure he hasn't got one. Bit like your defence of Billy V's ability to play wide, its not purely down to the player that we don't see skill sets that may exist
Banquo wrote:
Why do you say that? In the way Sarries play, he has no platform to show what he can or can't do as a distributor.
Partly the platform and style and partly he just doesn't, which is what I'd expect from a kid who runs so well but you'd also want more by now. Quite possible he does have a passing game, I'd just like to see it, it might even suit Sarries if there were other ways to get the ball to their 15 than opposition kicks
well quite. You seemed to be sure he hasn't got one. Bit like your defence of Billy V's ability to play wide, its not purely down to the player that we don't see skill sets that may exist
I felt I was stressing sufficiently we hadn't seen Lozowski passing more than he simply couldn't do it, but even if I hadn't seen Billy playing wider I would be content that running game would be a problem for anyone in the 13 channel.
Digby wrote:
Partly the platform and style and partly he just doesn't, which is what I'd expect from a kid who runs so well but you'd also want more by now. Quite possible he does have a passing game, I'd just like to see it, it might even suit Sarries if there were other ways to get the ball to their 15 than opposition kicks
well quite. You seemed to be sure he hasn't got one. Bit like your defence of Billy V's ability to play wide, its not purely down to the player that we don't see skill sets that may exist
I felt I was stressing sufficiently we hadn't seen Lozowski passing more than he simply couldn't do it, but even if I hadn't seen Billy playing wider I would be content that running game would be a problem for anyone in the 13 channel.
How are we so bad at producing 9's? It's so weird. Do you think we should have been taking players like kyle eastmond aside at age grade and trying to convert them then? Some thing clearly isn't working.
twitchy wrote:How are we so bad at producing 9's? It's so weird. Do you think we should have been taking players like kyle eastmond aside at age grade and trying to convert them then? Some thing clearly isn't working.
I think we are bad at giving young 9's enough opportunity to develop. Mind, the list of great English 9's is very short, and possibly near zero-- maybe I'm being unkind tho.
There’s an element in more recent times of not actually giving our best performing 9’s a go in the national team. Dan Robson and Ben Spencer have had runs of form in the last few seasons every bit as good as other top NH scrumhalves, but have combined for about 80 test minutes between them.
If Robson was Welsh/Irish/South African etc, and performing as he did for Wasps between 2017-2019 most would be lamenting the fact that we don’t produce 9’s like him. Ditto Spencer starting and shining in Champions Cup finals.
On one hand I do hope it's a joke. On the other I'd rather pick the Curry twins as a left and right flanker/scrum-half combo than ever see Youngs play for England again.
Mikey Brown wrote:On one hand I do hope it's a joke. On the other I'd rather pick the Curry twins as a left and right flanker/scrum-half combo than ever see Youngs play for England again.
Timbo wrote:There’s an element in more recent times of not actually giving our best performing 9’s a go in the national team. Dan Robson and Ben Spencer have had runs of form in the last few seasons every bit as good as other top NH scrumhalves, but have combined for about 80 test minutes between them.
If Robson was Welsh/Irish/South African etc, and performing as he did for Wasps between 2017-2019 most would be lamenting the fact that we don’t produce 9’s like him. Ditto Spencer starting and shining in Champions Cup finals.
True, always liked the cut of Robson's jib.....mind I do remember some folks saying he was the weak link in his intl age group team, which indicates something or other...
Mikey Brown wrote:On one hand I do hope it's a joke. On the other I'd rather pick the Curry twins as a left and right flanker/scrum-half combo than ever see Youngs play for England again.
JNGF bait if ever I saw it...
In my defence it was more about having a 9 on either side of the pitch so they don't have to run about so much.
Worrying about which way round the flankers pack down at the scrum is kind of like which way round the 12/13 line up. It simply doesn't matter.
Mikey Brown wrote:On one hand I do hope it's a joke. On the other I'd rather pick the Curry twins as a left and right flanker/scrum-half combo than ever see Youngs play for England again.
JNGF bait if ever I saw it...
In my defence it was more about having a 9 on either side of the pitch so they don't have to run about so much.
Worrying about which way round the flankers pack down at the scrum is kind of like which way round the 12/13 line up. It simply doesn't matter.
Good point. Like props and lock and wingers too...
I suspect that it's probably less of a case of actually playing him at 9 and more of an Austin Healey style role, where he's acting as a second 9 to get the play moving faster. Same as the Jack Nowell thing didn't see him playing flank, but saw them experimenting with him close to the breakdown and working on his rucking.
It could be that, but what if it is a suggestion that’s actually being mooted? The Bergamasco experiment was an abject failure, but that was for a one off game and I can see a kind of logic to it if enough time was invested in to it. Having played a lot of rugby at 7, I’d say there are quite a few similarities in attack at least. As an openside, you’re essentially trying to get to the breakdown and you’re running support lines. Of course there are lots of other specialist skills around passing and kicking, but I’ve seen Ben Curry show some fairly deft ball skills so maybe there’s more to it. Crazy, but if it worked, it could be a little bit of genius.
Scrumhead wrote:It could be that, but what if it is a suggestion that’s actually being mooted? The Bergamasco experiment was an abject failure, but that was for a one off game and I can see a kind of logic to it if enough time was invested in to it. Having played a lot of rugby at 7, I’d say there are quite a few similarities in attack at least. As an openside, you’re essentially trying to get to the breakdown and you’re running support lines. Of course there are lots of other specialist skills around passing and kicking, but I’ve seen Ben Curry show some fairly deft ball skills so maybe there’s more to it. Crazy, but if it worked, it could be a little bit of genius.
its both skills and decision making though, its a huge leap imo.
Tom Youngs made a successful switch so it can be done and comparatively late too. He was about 19/20 when he started playing hooker.
it's quite an ask to get a flanker to play SH though. Would take a good season or two to make the adjustments and if it doesnt work out, where does that leave Ben who is an established premiership standard back row forward?
fivepointer wrote:Tom Youngs made a successful switch so it can be done and comparatively late too. He was about 19/20 when he started playing hooker.
it's quite an ask to get a flanker to play SH though. Would take a good season or two to make the adjustments and if it doesnt work out, where does that leave Ben who is an established premiership standard back row forward?
Steve Thompson made the switch from backrow to hooker too and Sheridan from second row to prop. However all three of those inc Youngs would not have made it in their original positions so there was a different drive. Switching to 9 is very challenging, I think a season or two is pretty optimistic given the range of skills and esp decision making needed.
Oakboy wrote: Bloody hell, we are so desperate to find a half-decent SH that we believe this sort of crap.
very fair point
I like the fact that we've gone from having no 7s to being able to suggest cavalierly chucking one away for 2 seasons to learn how to flap his arms at referees and complain.
twitchy wrote:How are we so bad at producing 9's? It's so weird. Do you think we should have been taking players like kyle eastmond aside at age grade and trying to convert them then? Some thing clearly isn't working.
I think we are bad at giving young 9's enough opportunity to develop. Mind, the list of great English 9's is very short, and possibly near zero-- maybe I'm being unkind tho.
Oakboy wrote: Bloody hell, we are so desperate to find a half-decent SH that we believe this sort of crap.
very fair point
I like the fact that we've gone from having no 7s to being able to suggest cavalierly chucking one away for 2 seasons to learn how to flap his arms at referees and complain.
Puja
Posts like this almost make me want a rating system on this board
twitchy wrote:How are we so bad at producing 9's? It's so weird. Do you think we should have been taking players like kyle eastmond aside at age grade and trying to convert them then? Some thing clearly isn't working.
I think we are bad at giving young 9's enough opportunity to develop. Mind, the list of great English 9's is very short, and possibly near zero-- maybe I'm being unkind tho.
Steady on man - Dickie Jeeps!
hence 'near' zero. I knew Dickie pretty well rest his soul.
Harry Mallinder playing on the wing vs. Benetton is interesting. Like everyone else, I haven’t seen him play for a long time, but while I do recall him being deceptively quick, I wouldn’t have said he had the gas to play on the wing?
Bloody hell, we are so desperate to find a half-decent SH that we believe this sort of crap. 
