America

[Donny osmond]

Ive written previously that it should be in a museum. With a full explanation to allow for healthy debate.

I feel that when/if they fish it out of the Avon, it will have more impact and more of a story in a museum now.

I think they've done history a service by toppling it and throwing it into the river. I think it's an important part of history now.

They did petition the council.

The woman at the end of the Last Week Tonight show has it right: the social contract has been broken. What do you expect to happen?

How has the social contract in this country been broken? There has been an incredible amount of work to reduce inequality and just because Bristol city council don't move as quickly as you would like, that's not evidence of any social contract being broken.

Thats just an excuse for criminal behaviour. At what point does acceptable criminality become unacceptable, and who gets to decide that?

We all have a line in the sand, but where different people draw that line is an interesting question.

This guy in Bristol was shitting on slaves in the late 1600s so there's a very public line that anyone who was evil at that time should not be celebrated. So 300 - 350 years back from now is our starting point.

Are we going any further back? There were plenty of horrible people around, or at least people who did some horrible things, in the centuries immediately before that, so are we going back further still, or declaring an amnesty at some random point around 350 - 400 years back?

Also, it would be interesting to find out what the criteria are for being judged as EVIL? Colson? Coldston? Coulson? Bristol guy did some good stuff but NOT ENOUGH and has been cast down. What about guys like Andrew Carnegie? Henry Ford? Do acts of philanthropy, kindness and generosity ever count as balance, or is 1 evil act always and forever more important?

For Cashead and others who struggle with comprehension, I am not defending Bristol guy or deflecting away from him. I couldn't give less of a shit about his statue. I am interested in where this path takes us tho.

[Galfon]

After this, the path will involve a number of lists by various groups, after seeing thus far that direct mob action can get a result.
Hopefully debate through normal channels and some sensitivity will be the order of the day.

Here's the next likely candidate..
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/p ... is-4204163

[Son of Mathonwy]

After this, the path will involve a number of lists by various groups, after seeing thus far that direct mob action can get a result.
Hopefully debate through normal channels and some sensitivity will be the order of the day.

Here's the next likely candidate..
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/p ... is-4204163

Drake. Damn that's a tricky one.

The full story should be told, not the propaganda version, but still he's probably important enough for other reasons to be left alone.

[Stones of granite]

After this, the path will involve a number of lists by various groups, after seeing thus far that direct mob action can get a result.
Hopefully debate through normal channels and some sensitivity will be the order of the day.

Here's the next likely candidate..
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/p ... is-4204163

Drake. Damn that's a tricky one.

The full story should be told, not the propaganda version, but still he's probably important enough for other reasons to be left alone.

Not at all a tricky one for Clan McDonnell. Drake was responsible for the massacre of 600 people on Rathlin Island, including women and children.

[Donny osmond]

Cromwell?

Wallace? Robert the Bruce? Too far back, amnesty

Henry 8th? Descended from God, so tricky, but also essentially a mass murderer so....

Robert Peel?

Duke of Wellington?



Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

[Son of Mathonwy]

I'll return to my main point. You don't get to choose which laws you like or don't like. Criminal damage is still criminal damage. Assaulting police officers remains an offence. Protesting about a police officer in the US who broke the law (allegedly) and then breaking the law yourself in the UK does your argument no favours.

Allegedly? We've all seen the video; I think we can call a spade a spade, and a murder a murder.

Otherwise, for balance, you should go back and add "allegedly" to all mentions of criminal damage.

[Stones of granite]

Cromwell?

Wallace? Robert the Bruce? Too far back, amnesty

Henry 8th? Descended from God, so tricky, but also essentially a mass murderer so....

Robert Peel?

Duke of Wellington?



Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

How did you manage to leave Edward 1st off that list?

[Donny osmond]

Cromwell?

Wallace? Robert the Bruce? Too far back, amnesty

Henry 8th? Descended from God, so tricky, but also essentially a mass murderer so....

Robert Peel?

Duke of Wellington?



Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

How did you manage to leave Edward 1st off that list?

Ooof you're quite right he should def be there. Even with an amnesty he's still a good candidate.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

[Mikey Brown]

I feel that when/if they fish it out of the Avon, it will have more impact and more of a story in a museum now.

I think they've done history a service by toppling it and throwing it into the river. I think it's an important part of history now.

Well put.

I think there will be a few moments from all this that are viewed that way. Yes some of it is ugly, yes some of it goes against the divine rule of law. This will happen if you push people to the brink.

That’s not to simply forgive every illegal action or say people can pick and choose which laws they obey, but it seems strange to act as if there is no understandable breaking point. To think that democracy will always work perfectly on its own, with every eventuality covered by existing procedures, without anybody ever having to say “oh right, looks like people actually won’t stand for this shit and they’re doing what they can to kick up a fuss” it surely isn’t realistic?

I could understand being pushed to the brink in the US, not in the UK where the government of all hues have pushed racial equality for years and change is being effected. Most people have protested peacefully, yet there are the usual suspects who see it as an opportunity for a fight.

Yeah, I appreciate I was talking in broad terms about this whole thread there. I was still mostly talking about the US. All of this is ramped up to a different level in the states but similar things apply here.

You’re right to say racial equality is something that gets much more of a push here, and that’s great, but it’s obviously not a binary thing. We seem determined to mimic the US in so many ways already, it doesn’t surprise me some people are worried that what we’re seeing over there right now is where we could be headed, minus the guns.

[Stones of granite]

Cromwell?

Wallace? Robert the Bruce? Too far back, amnesty

Henry 8th? Descended from God, so tricky, but also essentially a mass murderer so....

Robert Peel?

Duke of Wellington?



Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

How did you manage to leave Edward 1st off that list?

Ooof you're quite right he should def be there. Even with an amnesty he's still a good candidate.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

Labour may well grant him amnesty for his anti-semitism.

[Donny osmond]

Luckily we no longer need to think about it, there is a website that tells us who to hate to the appropriate level...

https://www.toppletheracists.org/

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[Sandydragon]

I feel that when/if they fish it out of the Avon, it will have more impact and more of a story in a museum now.

I think they've done history a service by toppling it and throwing it into the river. I think it's an important part of history now.

They did petition the council.

The woman at the end of the Last Week Tonight show has it right: the social contract has been broken. What do you expect to happen?

How has the social contract in this country been broken? There has been an incredible amount of work to reduce inequality and just because Bristol city council don't move as quickly as you would like, that's not evidence of any social contract being broken.

Thats just an excuse for criminal behaviour. At what point does acceptable criminality become unacceptable, and who gets to decide that?

We all have a line in the sand, but where different people draw that line is an interesting question.

This guy in Bristol was shitting on slaves in the late 1600s so there's a very public line that anyone who was evil at that time should not be celebrated. So 300 - 350 years back from now is our starting point.

Are we going any further back? There were plenty of horrible people around, or at least people who did some horrible things, in the centuries immediately before that, so are we going back further still, or declaring an amnesty at some random point around 350 - 400 years back?

Also, it would be interesting to find out what the criteria are for being judged as EVIL? Colson? Coldston? Coulson? Bristol guy did some good stuff but NOT ENOUGH and has been cast down. What about guys like Andrew Carnegie? Henry Ford? Do acts of philanthropy, kindness and generosity ever count as balance, or is 1 evil act always and forever more important?

For Cashead and others who struggle with comprehension, I am not defending Bristol guy or deflecting away from him. I couldn't give less of a shit about his statue. I am interested in where this path takes us tho.

Its very hard to draw arbitrary lines, or even judge who is an evil c*nt in history and who isn't. Some characters are absolutely loathsome even by the standards of the day, some look bad when viewed through a contemporary lens. I have no issue with people holding views about Cecil Rhodes (total wanker) or Churchill (a mix but the positives greatly outweighs the negative), or Florence Nightingale (not too much to criticise there I'd suggest). If we expect 100% sainthood from public/historic figures then there won't be any statues.

Likewise, I think that this particular statue would have been better placed in a museum given his past associations. We shouldn't whitewash our history, but I wonder if a town centre spot for commemoration is appropriate?

My issue is that if the mob decides that a statue must go, then what else does the mob decide in a moment of anger. Mob actions can often turn out to have poor outcomes (as Bristol discovered not that long ago) where anger overspills into direct action. A group of people believe that something is evil and take direct action can also become a group of people believing someone is evil and taking direct action. And then justifying it as the police didn't act, or society didn't care, etc, etc. We are a functioning democracy, there is a process for managing issues like this at all levels that doesn't involve breaking the law. Without that our society will resort to something like Lord of the Flies and no one wants that.

[Sandydragon]

I'll return to my main point. You don't get to choose which laws you like or don't like. Criminal damage is still criminal damage. Assaulting police officers remains an offence. Protesting about a police officer in the US who broke the law (allegedly) and then breaking the law yourself in the UK does your argument no favours.

Allegedly? We've all seen the video; I think we can call a spade a spade, and a murder a murder.

Otherwise, for balance, you should go back and add "allegedly" to all mentions of criminal damage.

I probably should, although hIm not referring to an individual who is named, and that police officer hasn't been convicted yet.

[Sandydragon]

Cromwell?

Wallace? Robert the Bruce? Too far back, amnesty

Henry 8th? Descended from God, so tricky, but also essentially a mass murderer so....

Robert Peel?

Duke of Wellington?



Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

How did you manage to leave Edward 1st off that list?

Ooof you're quite right he should def be there. Even with an amnesty he's still a good candidate.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

Most of our autocratic monarchs (and Cromwell) would not compare to contemporary standards. That said, if we are going to be even handed about this and remove anyone who is racist or who people just don't like, then we should also ban all posters of Che Guevara and any of the leaders of the Soviet Union. Or any other dictatorship for that matter. Mosto f them are despicable fuckers in their own right and don't have the benefit of ancient historical norms to hide behind.

[Stom]

Ive written previously that it should be in a museum. With a full explanation to allow for healthy debate.

I feel that when/if they fish it out of the Avon, it will have more impact and more of a story in a museum now.

I think they've done history a service by toppling it and throwing it into the river. I think it's an important part of history now.

They did petition the council.

The woman at the end of the Last Week Tonight show has it right: the social contract has been broken. What do you expect to happen?

How has the social contract in this country been broken? There has been an incredible amount of work to reduce inequality and just because Bristol city council don't move as quickly as you would like, that's not evidence of any social contract being broken.

Thats just an excuse for criminal behaviour. At what point does acceptable criminality become unacceptable, and who gets to decide that?

When you look at the figures around employment opportunities, or the makeup of the CEOs of FTSE 100 companies... there is definitely some inequality going on there.

We are still pretty much run by rich, old, white men.

[Stones of granite]

I feel that when/if they fish it out of the Avon, it will have more impact and more of a story in a museum now.

I think they've done history a service by toppling it and throwing it into the river. I think it's an important part of history now.

They did petition the council.

The woman at the end of the Last Week Tonight show has it right: the social contract has been broken. What do you expect to happen?

How has the social contract in this country been broken? There has been an incredible amount of work to reduce inequality and just because Bristol city council don't move as quickly as you would like, that's not evidence of any social contract being broken.

Thats just an excuse for criminal behaviour. At what point does acceptable criminality become unacceptable, and who gets to decide that?

When you look at the figures around employment opportunities, or the makeup of the CEOs of FTSE 100 companies... there is definitely some inequality going on there.

We are still pretty much run by rich, old, white men.

The CEO's of FTSE 100 companies are predominantly rich and old? That's some insightful shit right there.

[Digby]

Cromwell?

Wallace? Robert the Bruce? Too far back, amnesty

Henry 8th? Descended from God, so tricky, but also essentially a mass murderer so....

Robert Peel?

Duke of Wellington?



Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

Justice 4 Thomas Moore, so fantastic a man he was made a saint

[paddy no 11]

The statue came down - good riddance. Let it lie and be its own history

[paddy no 11]

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishti ... 3fmode=amp

[Sandydragon]

I feel that when/if they fish it out of the Avon, it will have more impact and more of a story in a museum now.

I think they've done history a service by toppling it and throwing it into the river. I think it's an important part of history now.

They did petition the council.

The woman at the end of the Last Week Tonight show has it right: the social contract has been broken. What do you expect to happen?

How has the social contract in this country been broken? There has been an incredible amount of work to reduce inequality and just because Bristol city council don't move as quickly as you would like, that's not evidence of any social contract being broken.

Thats just an excuse for criminal behaviour. At what point does acceptable criminality become unacceptable, and who gets to decide that?

When you look at the figures around employment opportunities, or the makeup of the CEOs of FTSE 100 companies... there is definitely some inequality going on there.

We are still pretty much run by rich, old, white men.

You're quite right. Only 28% of top posts are filled with women and something like 8% are filled by people of BAME background (total pop of about 14%).

Not that long ago, there would have been virtually no business leaders from the BAME community so progress is being made although since it usually take a long time to work to the top jobs, it won't be overnight change. Many big companies have very good programmes to encourage BAME candidates into senior leadership roles but one f the key obstacles highlighted by BAME respondents to recent surveys is the lack of role models, which is a bit chicken and egg.

I would also suggest that its worth looking at home many top jobs go to people who have had private school education vs comprehensive. The former are very over represented and I would suggest that many in the BAME community aren't attending those institutions. So there is a wider piece to consider about how well children and young people are prepared for work, what support they have from their peer groups, and the educational standard they attain, even before looking at hiring and promotion practices in organisations.

[morepork]

I agree. I'd rather put up a sign explaining why he was such a c*nt (or even move the statue to a less high profile location) than just rip down our history. The fact is we did indulge and promote the slave trade and then we took the lead in stopping it. You can't cherry pick the bits of history you like.

I do understand that the nature of a statue his to commemorate and there are good reasons to remove them. But that is the decision of the local democratically elected council, not a mob.

So presumably both of you would have had objections to the plaque that was added that sanitised Colston's history of slavery, focusing on his philanthropy. After all, if "you can't cherry pick the bits of history you like," then conversely, you can't downplay the bits you don't like, right?

The arguments made by the both of you are literally the same shit peddled by people who try to argue to keep Confederate statues standing, and it's quite telling that both of you are also downplaying local criticism and efforts to even have the fucking plaque on the statue to acknowledge Colston's role in the slave trade, which was heavily obstructed by Tory councillors and the Society of Merchant Venturers, who did not want any mention of his affiliation in Parliament mentioned (can't imagine why), his role in the slave trade downplayed, and the punitive measures he took against any individuals or groups that did not share his views on the slave trade - all of which are recorded facts with primary evidence supporting them.

So, is it OK that the Merchant Venturers and the Tories went out of their way to play interference against the democratically elected City Council's attempt at any acknowledgement of Colston's role in the slave trade, including a campaign of misinformation? Do the local community campaigns against the statue and other Colston shit in Bristol not count? How is it fair, or democratic that a small cabal of Tories or the Merchant Venturers get to continue publicly celebrating someone like Colston and sanitising his history over the objections from the wider community?

On the other hand, this fucking guy?

The statue thing is great because the kind of people getting outraged by the icon of a slaver being pulled down are exactly the types of people who deserve to be outraged and so can fuck off.

This fucking guy gets it.

Utter rubbish. I would have explained all of Colston's history (indeed I have pointed that out below so I suggest you actually read some of these posts properly).

You highlight a debate in the local council. Thats what its there for, not everyone agrees with you and your viewpoint.

Do try and get your head around the fact that people who don't agree with you aren't necessary supporting racism. We just have different views on how it should be dealt with.

And haven't those views just been fantastic at addressing the problem thus far. Jesus christ son....

[morepork]

How low can you go?

[Mikey Brown]

Ah, the old smash your head against the floor trick.

[morepork]

I totally do that all the time to sock it to the man.

[Mikey Brown]

Maybe he just had a pre-existing head wound.