America

[Sandydragon]

So presumably both of you would have had objections to the plaque that was added that sanitised Colston's history of slavery, focusing on his philanthropy. After all, if "you can't cherry pick the bits of history you like," then conversely, you can't downplay the bits you don't like, right?

The arguments made by the both of you are literally the same shit peddled by people who try to argue to keep Confederate statues standing, and it's quite telling that both of you are also downplaying local criticism and efforts to even have the fucking plaque on the statue to acknowledge Colston's role in the slave trade, which was heavily obstructed by Tory councillors and the Society of Merchant Venturers, who did not want any mention of his affiliation in Parliament mentioned (can't imagine why), his role in the slave trade downplayed, and the punitive measures he took against any individuals or groups that did not share his views on the slave trade - all of which are recorded facts with primary evidence supporting them.

So, is it OK that the Merchant Venturers and the Tories went out of their way to play interference against the democratically elected City Council's attempt at any acknowledgement of Colston's role in the slave trade, including a campaign of misinformation? Do the local community campaigns against the statue and other Colston shit in Bristol not count? How is it fair, or democratic that a small cabal of Tories or the Merchant Venturers get to continue publicly celebrating someone like Colston and sanitising his history over the objections from the wider community?

On the other hand, this fucking guy?



This fucking guy gets it.

Utter rubbish. I would have explained all of Colston's history (indeed I have pointed that out below so I suggest you actually read some of these posts properly).

You highlight a debate in the local council. Thats what its there for, not everyone agrees with you and your viewpoint.

Do try and get your head around the fact that people who don't agree with you aren't necessary supporting racism. We just have different views on how it should be dealt with.

And haven't those views just been fantastic at addressing the problem thus far. Jesus christ son....

Don't confuse your country with the UK. There has been progress here and whilst it can be agonisingly slow at times, these are issues that will take generations to resolve in some cases.

[morepork]

Why generations?

[Stom]

How has the social contract in this country been broken? There has been an incredible amount of work to reduce inequality and just because Bristol city council don't move as quickly as you would like, that's not evidence of any social contract being broken.

Thats just an excuse for criminal behaviour. At what point does acceptable criminality become unacceptable, and who gets to decide that?

When you look at the figures around employment opportunities, or the makeup of the CEOs of FTSE 100 companies... there is definitely some inequality going on there.

We are still pretty much run by rich, old, white men.

You're quite right. Only 28% of top posts are filled with women and something like 8% are filled by people of BAME background (total pop of about 14%).

Not that long ago, there would have been virtually no business leaders from the BAME community so progress is being made although since it usually take a long time to work to the top jobs, it won't be overnight change. Many big companies have very good programmes to encourage BAME candidates into senior leadership roles but one f the key obstacles highlighted by BAME respondents to recent surveys is the lack of role models, which is a bit chicken and egg.

I would also suggest that its worth looking at home many top jobs go to people who have had private school education vs comprehensive. The former are very over represented and I would suggest that many in the BAME community aren't attending those institutions. So there is a wider piece to consider about how well children and young people are prepared for work, what support they have from their peer groups, and the educational standard they attain, even before looking at hiring and promotion practices in organisations.

Which brings us full circle toward institutionalised racism (and sexism and bigotry in general). That doesn't mean it's intentional, the UK isn't full of a bunch of screaming racists, but actions do result in inequality.

Every single part of our system is geared toward keeping people in their "place". As most black people were at the bottom of the pile when these systems were put in place, that's where they've stayed.

That's what people mean. You don't see how broken it all is, but it is incredibly broken. Especially in the UK because no-one likes talking about upsetting the apple cart. No-one likes to cause disruption. But without disruption we have an unfair system that puts people into boxes it's incredibly hard to escape.

[Stom]

Utter rubbish. I would have explained all of Colston's history (indeed I have pointed that out below so I suggest you actually read some of these posts properly).

You highlight a debate in the local council. Thats what its there for, not everyone agrees with you and your viewpoint.

Do try and get your head around the fact that people who don't agree with you aren't necessary supporting racism. We just have different views on how it should be dealt with.

And haven't those views just been fantastic at addressing the problem thus far. Jesus christ son....

Don't confuse your country with the UK. There has been progress here and whilst it can be agonisingly slow at times, these are issues that will take generations to resolve in some cases.

See my post for why I feel that view is completely wrong.

[Sandydragon]

When you look at the figures around employment opportunities, or the makeup of the CEOs of FTSE 100 companies... there is definitely some inequality going on there.

We are still pretty much run by rich, old, white men.

You're quite right. Only 28% of top posts are filled with women and something like 8% are filled by people of BAME background (total pop of about 14%).

Not that long ago, there would have been virtually no business leaders from the BAME community so progress is being made although since it usually take a long time to work to the top jobs, it won't be overnight change. Many big companies have very good programmes to encourage BAME candidates into senior leadership roles but one f the key obstacles highlighted by BAME respondents to recent surveys is the lack of role models, which is a bit chicken and egg.

I would also suggest that its worth looking at home many top jobs go to people who have had private school education vs comprehensive. The former are very over represented and I would suggest that many in the BAME community aren't attending those institutions. So there is a wider piece to consider about how well children and young people are prepared for work, what support they have from their peer groups, and the educational standard they attain, even before looking at hiring and promotion practices in organisations.

Which brings us full circle toward institutionalised racism (and sexism and bigotry in general). That doesn't mean it's intentional, the UK isn't full of a bunch of screaming racists, but actions do result in inequality.

Every single part of our system is geared toward keeping people in their "place". As most black people were at the bottom of the pile when these systems were put in place, that's where they've stayed.

That's what people mean. You don't see how broken it all is, but it is incredibly broken. Especially in the UK because no-one likes talking about upsetting the apple cart. No-one likes to cause disruption. But without disruption we have an unfair system that puts people into boxes it's incredibly hard to escape.

That's just not true.

There are plenty of opportunities to move up the social hierarchy. There are plenty of BAME community examples I can think of who have managed to do just that. Yes, it's harder to get to the top job if you are starting out from the lowest levels of society, but its achievable.

Many look at the fact that we have an hereditary monarchy and public schools and assume that we are class riven and everyone is stuck where they are born. It's certainly easier to achieve success if you are born with the silver spoon in your mouth, but this doesn't mean that its impossible. Its just harder. But this is a social class thing which is also hard for white children from poorer families who are stuck in poor schools and have unhealthy peer pressure and low expectations.

[Sandydragon]

Why generations?

I was considering the under representation of BAME in CEO and similar functions. Thats not something you can fix overnight. Generations might be a bit of an exaggeration but it's not a quick fix in that you can't just parachute someone without appropriate experience into those roles and expect success.

[morepork]

I really don't understand how anyone can struggle to see the bigger picture here. Pretty sure there the UK has it's fair share of inequality. Yet some choose to view public expression of frustration at this ongoing state of affairs through the lens of law and order. I really don't get that.

[Stom]

You're quite right. Only 28% of top posts are filled with women and something like 8% are filled by people of BAME background (total pop of about 14%).

Not that long ago, there would have been virtually no business leaders from the BAME community so progress is being made although since it usually take a long time to work to the top jobs, it won't be overnight change. Many big companies have very good programmes to encourage BAME candidates into senior leadership roles but one f the key obstacles highlighted by BAME respondents to recent surveys is the lack of role models, which is a bit chicken and egg.

I would also suggest that its worth looking at home many top jobs go to people who have had private school education vs comprehensive. The former are very over represented and I would suggest that many in the BAME community aren't attending those institutions. So there is a wider piece to consider about how well children and young people are prepared for work, what support they have from their peer groups, and the educational standard they attain, even before looking at hiring and promotion practices in organisations.

Which brings us full circle toward institutionalised racism (and sexism and bigotry in general). That doesn't mean it's intentional, the UK isn't full of a bunch of screaming racists, but actions do result in inequality.

Every single part of our system is geared toward keeping people in their "place". As most black people were at the bottom of the pile when these systems were put in place, that's where they've stayed.

That's what people mean. You don't see how broken it all is, but it is incredibly broken. Especially in the UK because no-one likes talking about upsetting the apple cart. No-one likes to cause disruption. But without disruption we have an unfair system that puts people into boxes it's incredibly hard to escape.

That's just not true.

There are plenty of opportunities to move up the social hierarchy. There are plenty of BAME community examples I can think of who have managed to do just that. Yes, it's harder to get to the top job if you are starting out from the lowest levels of society, but its achievable.

Many look at the fact that we have an hereditary monarchy and public schools and assume that we are class riven and everyone is stuck where they are born. It's certainly easier to achieve success if you are born with the silver spoon in your mouth, but this doesn't mean that its impossible. Its just harder. But this is a social class thing which is also hard for white children from poorer families who are stuck in poor schools and have unhealthy peer pressure and low expectations.

I didn't say it wasn't, it's just that BAME kids are more likely to be in that "class" to start.

And while many may look at the UK and think it's class riven...

It is.

I know, I went to a "fee paying" school. Inverted commas because it was only partially fee paying, they accepted people from all social groups. But those from the lower social group were looked down on really badly. And those from the top social group were appointed to student roles, given extra opportunities, and so on.

Of the people I know from school, the ones from the lower classes have gone on to live lives in, well, the lower classes. While those from a higher social class have gone on to live lives in, well, higher classes!

You might want to deny it, but when you see politics and the sheer quantity of privately educated politicians, the presence of SPADs, nearly all of whom aren't jut privately educated but went to public schools, and the backgrounds of all the CEOs of top companies...

You realise the UK has a serious class problem. There are exceptions, there always are...but hey, you're a military man and, well, how do you get into officer school? What's the makeup of officer school in terms of social background?

Denying the UK has a class, and therefore a bigotry, problem is sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala.

[Digby]

Why generations?

Because humanity thus far hasn't thus far shown itself to be capable of more. If we could end racism, sexism, homophobia, rape, domestic violence and the like by pulling down some monuments I'm happy to see every statue in the world toppled by close of play tomorrow, and I'd take the hit to democracy as easily worth it.

[Stom]

Why generations?

Because humanity thus far hasn't thus far shown itself to be capable of more. If we could end racism, sexism, homophobia, rape, domestic violence and the like by pulling down some monuments I'm happy to see every statue in the world toppled by close of play tomorrow, and I'd take the hit to democracy as easily worth it.

The thing is...changing a system causes pain for the people who are benefiting from the system. And those people are the same people who make up the political class.

If they're left to their own devices, nothing changes.

By letting it take generations, you're basically letting it go unchanged, as nothing will happen. Some meaningless platitudes will happen, and some facile changes, but nothing lasting, nothing real, and nothing that 90% of those exploited by the current system can cling on to.

Racism is not the cause here, it is a symptom of the cause. The cause is widespread, extreme corruption, cronyism, protectionism, and fear.

[Sandydragon]

Why generations?

Because humanity thus far hasn't thus far shown itself to be capable of more. If we could end racism, sexism, homophobia, rape, domestic violence and the like by pulling down some monuments I'm happy to see every statue in the world toppled by close of play tomorrow, and I'd take the hit to democracy as easily worth it.

The thing is...changing a system causes pain for the people who are benefiting from the system. And those people are the same people who make up the political class.

If they're left to their own devices, nothing changes.

By letting it take generations, you're basically letting it go unchanged, as nothing will happen. Some meaningless platitudes will happen, and some facile changes, but nothing lasting, nothing real, and nothing that 90% of those exploited by the current system can cling on to.

Racism is not the cause here, it is a symptom of the cause. The cause is widespread, extreme corruption, cronyism, protectionism, and fear.

So what would you do to change the situation in a shorter time frame? Britain is already a very tolerant nation, compared to
So many others it really is, and whilst not perfect radical change isn’t the answer. It’s about encouragement and support which is available now. Pushing quotas is self defeating, and many BAME employees I speak to don’t want anything like that.

[Sandydragon]

Which brings us full circle toward institutionalised racism (and sexism and bigotry in general). That doesn't mean it's intentional, the UK isn't full of a bunch of screaming racists, but actions do result in inequality.

Every single part of our system is geared toward keeping people in their "place". As most black people were at the bottom of the pile when these systems were put in place, that's where they've stayed.

That's what people mean. You don't see how broken it all is, but it is incredibly broken. Especially in the UK because no-one likes talking about upsetting the apple cart. No-one likes to cause disruption. But without disruption we have an unfair system that puts people into boxes it's incredibly hard to escape.

That's just not true.

There are plenty of opportunities to move up the social hierarchy. There are plenty of BAME community examples I can think of who have managed to do just that. Yes, it's harder to get to the top job if you are starting out from the lowest levels of society, but its achievable.

Many look at the fact that we have an hereditary monarchy and public schools and assume that we are class riven and everyone is stuck where they are born. It's certainly easier to achieve success if you are born with the silver spoon in your mouth, but this doesn't mean that its impossible. Its just harder. But this is a social class thing which is also hard for white children from poorer families who are stuck in poor schools and have unhealthy peer pressure and low expectations.

I didn't say it wasn't, it's just that BAME kids are more likely to be in that "class" to start.

And while many may look at the UK and think it's class riven...

It is.

I know, I went to a "fee paying" school. Inverted commas because it was only partially fee paying, they accepted people from all social groups. But those from the lower social group were looked down on really badly. And those from the top social group were appointed to student roles, given extra opportunities, and so on.

Of the people I know from school, the ones from the lower classes have gone on to live lives in, well, the lower classes. While those from a higher social class have gone on to live lives in, well, higher classes!

You might want to deny it, but when you see politics and the sheer quantity of privately educated politicians, the presence of SPADs, nearly all of whom aren't jut privately educated but went to public schools, and the backgrounds of all the CEOs of top companies...

You realise the UK has a serious class problem. There are exceptions, there always are...but hey, you're a military man and, well, how do you get into officer school? What's the makeup of officer school in terms of social background?

Denying the UK has a class, and therefore a bigotry, problem is sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalalala.

I grew up in a single parent family in a council estate. I worked damn hard to get my commission.

A good percentage of officer cadets are from military families already and many benefit from
Private education because that has been a benefit that can be available to all military personnel.

However a good number of ex rankers were also on my course along with direct entrants who had been to comprehensives.

The UK has a serious education problem where too many bright kids are held back in substandard schools where their expectations are low. Those state school don’t have the facilities or offer the opportunities that public schools do. That’s not a race specific problem, it’s a financial one.

Whilst we continue with the current situation, it is harder for poorer kids of all ethnicities to move upwards. But not impossible. And don’t forget many kids are from
Families where education just isn’t that important. Again that covers much of the racial fabric with a few exceptions.

[Digby]

Because humanity thus far hasn't thus far shown itself to be capable of more. If we could end racism, sexism, homophobia, rape, domestic violence and the like by pulling down some monuments I'm happy to see every statue in the world toppled by close of play tomorrow, and I'd take the hit to democracy as easily worth it.

The thing is...changing a system causes pain for the people who are benefiting from the system. And those people are the same people who make up the political class.

If they're left to their own devices, nothing changes.

By letting it take generations, you're basically letting it go unchanged, as nothing will happen. Some meaningless platitudes will happen, and some facile changes, but nothing lasting, nothing real, and nothing that 90% of those exploited by the current system can cling on to.

Racism is not the cause here, it is a symptom of the cause. The cause is widespread, extreme corruption, cronyism, protectionism, and fear.

So what would you do to change the situation in a shorter time frame? Britain is already a very tolerant nation, compared to
So many others it really is, and whilst not perfect radical change isn’t the answer. It’s about encouragement and support which is available now. Pushing quotas is self defeating, and many BAME employees I speak to don’t want anything like that.

Some of my BAME employees have some shockingly racist views (they're a split of Indian and Polish in the main) that rather jar with an urban educated existence in modern Britain

And on the point the elite is an issue then typically we find whatever sits at the top of any society at any point in history is corrupt. Even with that we are opening up as a society and becoming more open, becoming more tolerant, I can certainly bear witness to that in my lifetime. But I'd happily take a fix for the corruption of the elite.

As to pushing it faster if you've got an idea which will quickly change how people think by all means get it out there. I'm not sure it's a case of letting it take generations for more progress to come, I just don't imagine shifting values across the whole of society will come at a greater pace, no matter I might want it. And I assume when we get there some people will only be addressing other wrongs they consider need righting, as that too is our experience.

[morepork]

If it doesn't happen soon the incompetence of those in charge will be so inbred into government that they will not be able to accommodate logic and planning if this spectacular public health response cluster fuck is anything to go by.

[Sandydragon]

I really don't understand how anyone can struggle to see the bigger picture here. Pretty sure there the UK has it's fair share of inequality. Yet some choose to view public expression of frustration at this ongoing state of affairs through the lens of law and order. I really don't get that.

The UK is one of the most tolerant places in the world and to suggest that violent acts are required to overcome repression is to drastically misunderstand the situation. There is a lot of opportunity and support for BAME (and other groups) to progress. There are strong equality laws. Yes there are individuals who are racist but they are working outside of the law when they do so.

The main problem is many BAME who live in relative poverty and have the same problems that white people in the same situation do with regards to progression. Its much harder due to crap education and opportunities. If you want to get more BAME (and poorer white) children to progress up the social ladder then sort out the education problem (as well as the attitudes of their own parents and peers).

[Digby]

Some of the crappy outcomes some people have from our education and health systems are partly on those individuals, it's not all down to the state/society

[Donny osmond]

It might be worth remembering that within living memory the overwhelming majority of UK citizens would have been considered working class and poor, certainly by today's standards. That the UK today has such a large middle class is a testament to the changes that have occurred over the last 80 - 100 years.

Again, for those of a binary thought process, this isn't me saying that we've moved far enough or quickly enough; we could've done more and should be doing more, but the lived experience of millions of UK citizens is that movement is eminently achievable.

Of course, that's been done on the back of the utter destruction of the local and global environment, so I can accept that many of those avenues are now closed and massive change is needed, but that's not a problem exclusive to the UK.

I deeply deeply hate talking about class. It is, with a bitter irony, so completely class-less. Not least because so many staunchly "middle class" people like to pretend they are, or at least are the voice of the, "working class". Really grinds my gears.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

[cashead]

Utter rubbish. I would have explained all of Colston's history (indeed I have pointed that out below so I suggest you actually read some of these posts properly).

You highlight a debate in the local council. Thats what its there for, not everyone agrees with you and your viewpoint.

Do try and get your head around the fact that people who don't agree with you aren't necessary supporting racism. We just have different views on how it should be dealt with.

And haven't those views just been fantastic at addressing the problem thus far. Jesus christ son....

Don't confuse your country with the UK. There has been progress here and whilst it can be agonisingly slow at times, these are issues that will take generations to resolve in some cases.

Spoken like a true bootlicker.

Not putting up a statue of a slaver or publicly acknowledging the extent of his actions during and after slavery is not one of them.

But hey, "different views" and "oh you're getting emotional about it," right?

Some of the crappy outcomes some people have from our education and health systems are partly on those individuals, it's not all down to the state/society

Go on, let's hear more of this.

[Donny osmond]

And haven't those views just been fantastic at addressing the problem thus far. Jesus christ son....

Don't confuse your country with the UK. There has been progress here and whilst it can be agonisingly slow at times, these are issues that will take generations to resolve in some cases.

Spoken like a true bootlicker.

Not putting up a statue of a slaver or publicly acknowledging the extent of his actions during and after slavery is not one of them.

But hey, "different views" and "oh you're getting emotional about it," right?

Some of the crappy outcomes some people have from our education and health systems are partly on those individuals, it's not all down to the state/society

Go on, let's hear more of this.

I had looked up a definition of bigotry, but couldn’t quite remember the exact wording...

[Sandydragon]

And haven't those views just been fantastic at addressing the problem thus far. Jesus christ son....

Don't confuse your country with the UK. There has been progress here and whilst it can be agonisingly slow at times, these are issues that will take generations to resolve in some cases.

Spoken like a true bootlicker.

Not putting up a statue of a slaver or publicly acknowledging the extent of his actions during and after slavery is not one of them.

But hey, "different views" and "oh you're getting emotional about it," right?

Some of the crappy outcomes some people have from our education and health systems are partly on those individuals, it's not all down to the state/society

Go on, let's hear more of this.

Grow up fella. People disagree with your views. Get over it.

[Sandydragon]

It might be worth remembering that within living memory the overwhelming majority of UK citizens would have been considered working class and poor, certainly by today's standards. That the UK today has such a large middle class is a testament to the changes that have occurred over the last 80 - 100 years.

Again, for those of a binary thought process, this isn't me saying that we've moved far enough or quickly enough; we could've done more and should be doing more, but the lived experience of millions of UK citizens is that movement is eminently achievable.

Of course, that's been done on the back of the utter destruction of the local and global environment, so I can accept that many of those avenues are now closed and massive change is needed, but that's not a problem exclusive to the UK.

I deeply deeply hate talking about class. It is, with a bitter irony, so completely class-less. Not least because so many staunchly "middle class" people like to pretend they are, or at least are the voice of the, "working class". Really grinds my gears.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

Apparently the old classes are defunct now anyway. I do roll my eyes when someone brings up class; it’s a load of old bollocks.

And yes the middle class discovering a conscience and lecturing the working class on how to behave or what to expect is deeply patronising.

[Sandydragon]

If it doesn't happen soon the incompetence of those in charge will be so inbred into government that they will not be able to accommodate logic and planning if this spectacular public health response cluster fuck is anything to go by.

You’re a bit late with that comment. Why do so many talented people avoid politics? Discuss.

[Sandydragon]

And in some more good news, the far right and various football hooligans associations (not right wing honest) are going to defend British statues from anti racist campaigners.

I bet the police can’t wait.



Please note the sarcasm in this post before replying like a dick.

[cashead]

I had looked up a definition of bigotry, but couldn’t quite remember the exact wording...

"Both sides" shit is shit, hth.

Grow up fella. People disagree with your views. Get over it.

OK, bootlicker.

[Digby]

Grow up fella. People disagree with your views. Get over it.

Never knowingly under virtue signalled