Scrumhead wrote:And fair play to them for it ... I liked what I saw of Will Butler when he played for the U20s, but I haven’t seen much of him since. Hopefully he can get more game time as he looked to me like a handy, playmaking 12.
I know Billy Searle is not a Worcester academy product but I think he’s a good young 10 whose injuries mean he’s kind of flown under the radar. I think he’s a very astute signing who will do well for you.
I really like Will Butler but he cannot stay fit at all. He's had a couple of long term injuries now and is falling down the pecking order. He captained our A-side a couple of seasons ago and did really well. Needed to bulk up a little bit as he's on the small size for a centre.
Only seen Searle play once and that was against us this season and he looked a good ball player. Should hopefully give us another dimension to Weir.
If you'll take my opinion, Searle is a better player than Weir all around. Highly underrated - he'd never trouble an international team, but he's the kind of solid all-around player that your lot have a knack for coaxing really good form out of. He's a sharp acquisition.
Mind, I like the look of Shillcock for your lot as well. Do you see him as a 10 going forwards or Pennell's heir?
Puja
Shilcocks main issue, other than a few injuries, is finding his position. He came through the academy as a 9, broke into the first team in the back 3 and started playing 10 when we had injuries a couple of seasons ago.
Personally I think long term he's a 15. He likes to run the ball and has a great tactical kicking game. Think he just takes too long on the ball to make a decision. The extra time at 15 suits him better. I think he wants to be a 10 though.
Pennell started getting back to his pre neck injury best towards the end of last season and start of this. He was never the quickest and he's lost a yard of pace. Still one of the best defensively and other than Mike Brown I've not seen a better English full back under the high ball. Not sure how much he will be involved when the season starts as Malani Nanai looks to be more of a fullback than winger
Warrior85 wrote:I think Kai Owen should get plenty of time now. I think he was finishing a degree up until now. I think he should definitely be 2nd choice ahead of Callum Black.
Losing Bryce Heem was massive for us. Such a top bloke and incredible player. Whenever we used to get stuck playing sideways and backwards (which was often) he used to get us going forward on his own. We've got high hopes with Fidow if he can work on his defensive positioning.
Solly and the new owners are really trying to build a foundation through our academy rather than bringing journey men as we have done in the past.
So strange to read this after his time at Edinburgh was notable mostly for the number of very average journeymen that he brought in and a general reluctance to trust youth. I wonder if he's being forced into it due to circumstances, has learned a lesson or Worcesters academy is just that much better.
London Irish sign on with Quins to play the rest of the season at The Stoop until their new stadium is available. Sensible decision and hopefully Quins aren't rooking them for it.
Puja wrote:London Irish sign on with Quins to play the rest of the season at The Stoop until their new stadium is available. Sensible decision and hopefully Quins aren't rooking them for it.
Puja
Probably hoping some fans will be allowed in (small proportion of total capacity) so they can make some money on drinks and food.
Ted Hill new Worcester club captain at 21. Barring injury he’ll be in the next England World Cup squad, and can quite easily see him being a starter.
And keeping it topical, as he was being discussed earlier in this thread, Will Butler vice captain. Butler and Lawrence could be an exciting centre combo, and potentially good for England.
That seems like a totally pointless amount of pressure to put him under, no? I often get this weird feeling clubs are handing out captaincies to players who want that bit more of a push to England contention, week by week I mean. Club captain is a very different thing. If he's really ready for it that's fantastic though.
Puja wrote:London Irish sign on with Quins to play the rest of the season at The Stoop until their new stadium is available. Sensible decision and hopefully Quins aren't rooking them for it.
Puja
Probably hoping some fans will be allowed in (small proportion of total capacity) so they can make some money on drinks and food.
To be honest, if they're allowed to have more than 10% of the stadium filled, then that'd be an alien environment for London Irish anyway.
Timbo wrote:Ted Hill new Worcester club captain at 21. Barring injury he’ll be in the next England World Cup squad, and can quite easily see him being a starter.
And keeping it topical, as he was being discussed earlier in this thread, Will Butler vice captain. Butler and Lawrence could be an exciting centre combo, and potentially good for England.
Not sure about making Butler vice captain when he rarely gets picked, but Hill as captain isn’t a crazy decision IMO. He’s massively influential, even if it isn’t in an obviously vocal way.
I’ve said this on numerous occasions, but Hill is the real deal and I see him being our first choice 6 before long. He’s made for Eddie’s preferred role for a blindside too.
Ted as captain was a bit if a surprise to be honest purely as we have other options. He's definitely captain material tho and is already a leader on the field so don't think it detract from his game.
Will Butler has been 2nd team captain for a couple of seasons and has been earmarked as a potential leader. If he can stay fit he'll play a more this year.
I think the captain choices are a reflection on Solly and the clubs attitude of promoting and building the club on the academy and Worcester boys.
Matt Moulds has been named team captain (not entirely sure what that is when we have a club captain as recognised starter), so I imagine will be effectively the vice captain.
I’m not sure it works in the pro game, but at my club, the ‘club captain’ is more of an overall figurehead/representative, but we have ‘team captains’ for our first XV and second XV who actually take the on-field leadership role.
I’m excited to see more of Butler. As I said earlier in the thread, I really liked what I’ve seen from him in the past so it’ll be good to see more of him.
I also saw that Moulds is out injured for a couple of months so won’t be playing until September/October.
Scrumhead wrote:I’m not sure it works in the pro game, but at my club, the ‘club captain’ is more of an overall figurehead/representative, but we have ‘team captains’ for our first XV and second XV who actually take the on-field leadership role.
I’m excited to see more of Butler. As I said earlier in the thread, I really liked what I’ve seen from him in the past so it’ll be good to see more of him.
I also saw that Moulds is out injured for a couple of months so won’t be playing until September/October.
Exactly. I get wanting to see Hill game charge of the side at points, but having a 21 year old (who’s still developing and looking to break in to the national team) also having to do all the media and whatnot that comes with being club captain seems pointless.
Particularly when you have some very experienced players in there who are pretty settled at their level.
Timbo wrote:Ted Hill new Worcester club captain at 21. Barring injury he’ll be in the next England World Cup squad, and can quite easily see him being a starter.
And keeping it topical, as he was being discussed earlier in this thread, Will Butler vice captain. Butler and Lawrence could be an exciting centre combo, and potentially good for England.
Not sure about making Butler vice captain when he rarely gets picked, but Hill as captain isn’t a crazy decision IMO. He’s massively influential, even if it isn’t in an obviously vocal way.
I’ve said this on numerous occasions, but Hill is the real deal and I see him being our first choice 6 before long. He’s made for Eddie’s preferred role for a blindside too.
The interesting thing for me is that Willis , Ludlum , Wilson could also fit that mold - some real class competition for blindside berth for sure
Timbo wrote:Ted Hill new Worcester club captain at 21. Barring injury he’ll be in the next England World Cup squad, and can quite easily see him being a starter.
And keeping it topical, as he was being discussed earlier in this thread, Will Butler vice captain. Butler and Lawrence could be an exciting centre combo, and potentially good for England.
Not sure about making Butler vice captain when he rarely gets picked, but Hill as captain isn’t a crazy decision IMO. He’s massively influential, even if it isn’t in an obviously vocal way.
I’ve said this on numerous occasions, but Hill is the real deal and I see him being our first choice 6 before long. He’s made for Eddie’s preferred role for a blindside too.
The interesting thing for me is that Willis , Ludlum , Wilson could also fit that mold - some real class competition for blindside berth for sure
They are in the sense that they’re all excellent options to have. However, I think Eddie’s continual experimentation with Lawes/Itoje at 6 suggests that he actually wants the 6 to be a genuine lineout forward. Willis, Ludlam and Wilson can and do jump in the lineout with some capability, but Ted Hill is much closer to being an English PSdT which is what I think Eddie really wants.
As much as I like the combination of Curry and Underhill at 6/7 and I’m always perfectly happy to see Wilson at 6, in the longer term I think Hill is the answer we’re looking for to create a genuinely balanced back row. I’m a massive fan of Willis, but I think he and Ludlam are bringing more of what we already have, while Hill is something different.
Scrumhead wrote:
Not sure about making Butler vice captain when he rarely gets picked, but Hill as captain isn’t a crazy decision IMO. He’s massively influential, even if it isn’t in an obviously vocal way.
I’ve said this on numerous occasions, but Hill is the real deal and I see him being our first choice 6 before long. He’s made for Eddie’s preferred role for a blindside too.
The interesting thing for me is that Willis , Ludlum , Wilson could also fit that mold - some real class competition for blindside berth for sure
They are in the sense that they’re all excellent options to have. However, I think Eddie’s continual experimentation with Lawes/Itoje at 6 suggests that he actually wants the 6 to be a genuine lineout forward. Willis, Ludlam and Wilson can and do jump in the lineout with some capability, but Ted Hill is much closer to being an English PSdT which is what I think Eddie really wants.
As much as I like the combination of Curry and Underhill at 6/7 and I’m always perfectly happy to see Wilson at 6, in the longer term I think Hill is the answer we’re looking for to create a genuinely balanced back row. I’m a massive fan of Willis, but I think he and Ludlam are bringing more of what we already have, while Hill is something different.
I certainly think that whilst Billy at 8 and Underhill at 7 remain Eddie’s first choice picks in their respective positions and there’s a strong argument to say they’re both Lions 1st XV class (certainly I think Eddie sees them as, not withstanding injury, undroppable - even though I’d say there are potentially exciting 8 and 7 options outside current England squad —who may have enough talent to usurp them) - then that does make a strong case for picking a specialist lineout jumper in the backrow even if they aren’t the greatest all round blindside. For me T Curry may well get edged out of test side over next season or two simply because there’s so many better 6 and 8 options out there and whilst he’s actually a very good and talented test specialist openside I’m not convinced his talents are quite up to competing with the sheer defensive brilliance of Underhill. T Curry’s young enough to make a comeback but it must be a tough decision for him at this point as to whether he carries on as a utility backrow ( and frankly imo players like Wilson, Ludlum and Earl can all do this better ) or really targets getting that 7 shirt off Underhill - a big ask!
I think you are more or less alone (certainly on this board) in thinking Curry is the most vulnerable player in our back row.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Underhill is a fantastic player but with the exception of tackling, I’d put Curry on a par or ahead of him in pretty much every aspect of what I want from a flanker. He’s a better link player, a better jackal, a better lineout jumper and at least equal for carrying (probably better IMO). Curry is also an excellent defender even if his tackling isn’t quite as destructive as Underhill’s (but we could say that about most other players).
It’s a great problem to have, but if it’s a choice between Underhill and Curry for the 7 shirt, I think there’s only one winner.
If Willis gets a chance and is able to transfer his club form to test rugby, I think he has the potential to be as good as/possibly even better than both, but I see Hill as the most likely to be he long term answer at 6. Like du Toit, he is the embodiment of what you want in a blindside and if he goes well as captain at Worcester, I’m going to stick my neck out and say he’s a future England captaincy contender. Quite a turnaround for me - if you searched this board a few years back I said I thought Hill was a bit overrated and was a lock trying to play at 6. I take all that back.
Scrumhead wrote:Quite a turnaround for me - if you searched this board a few years back I said I thought Hill was a bit overrated and was a lock trying to play at 6. I take all that back.
Think there’s still many of us saying this about Lawes and Itoje - apart from the bit about taking it back
Saracens’ loyal fans must be absolutely devastated to see the consequences of the huge fine and the enforced relegation that has so weakened the team for next season in the Championship. Obviously, the monetary rewards were of far more importance to the players than loyalty to the Club just as so many of the detractors of Saracens predicted.
