Channel migrants - solutions.

[Galfon]

Certainly a short stretch of water offers a different set of challenges than a land border.
Recent numbers are at record levels, suggesting that anything agreed between uk and france is not sufficient,
if arrivals through this illegal route were expected to be kept at a low level.
Any thoughts as to what should happen, and what changes (if any..) we will see in the near future ?

[canta_brian]

Maybe get the Led by Donkeys crowd to project our covid numbers into the white cliffs of Dover

[Stones of granite]

Certainly a short stretch of water offers a different set of challenges than a land border.
Recent numbers are at record levels, suggesting that anything agreed between uk and france is not sufficient,
if arrivals through this illegal route were expected to be kept at a low level.
Any thoughts as to what should happen, and what changes (if any..) we will see in the near future ?

The antipodean approach - internment camp on the Isle of Man.

That'll learn 'em

[Digby]

If you're not willing to declare them combatants and sink/shoot them on entry to British waters what is there to be done? And if your plan is to drown/shoot children there are some flaws in your plan.

Muddle through and do what we can to ensure there are less places people want to leave is what there is

[Puja]

If you're not willing to declare them combatants and sink/shoot them on entry to British waters what is there to be done? And if your plan is to drown/shoot children there are some flaws in your plan.

Muddle through and do what we can to ensure there are less places people want to leave is what there is

Good thing we don't have a government who would slash the international aid budget on the last day of parliament, shortly after swearing it was inviolable, isn't it? Oh wait, no, we *are* currently ruled by complete fucking morons, aren't we?

Puja

[Digby]

If you're not willing to declare them combatants and sink/shoot them on entry to British waters what is there to be done? And if your plan is to drown/shoot children there are some flaws in your plan.

Muddle through and do what we can to ensure there are less places people want to leave is what there is

Good thing we don't have a government who would slash the international aid budget on the last day of parliament, shortly after swearing it was inviolable, isn't it? Oh wait, no, we *are* currently ruled by complete fucking morons, aren't we?

Puja

In their defence they were very carful to give extended scrutiny of the EU withdrawal agreement and the EU it turns out will owe us an extra £180bn because of the impressive diligence shown by Boris and co, so we'll have plenty of extra to make up any cuts

[Galfon]

Muddle through and do what we can to ensure there are less places people want to leave is what there is

The problem is the list of places seems to be growing - we're not talking Kosovo/Eritrea numbers, the recent arrivals come from around a dozen countries (declared)
circa 400M population.Whilst working on the push factors, it would be interesting to know why the pull of uk
is big enough not to stay put in france or elsewhere in EU, and it can't just be the language.

[Galfon]

thank you, baked-potato..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53699511

[Digby]

Muddle through and do what we can to ensure there are less places people want to leave is what there is

The problem is the list of places seems to be growing - we're not talking Kosovo/Eritrea numbers, the recent arrivals come from around a dozen countries (declared)
circa 400M population.Whilst working on the push factors, it would be interesting to know why the pull of uk
is big enough not to stay put in france or elsewhere in EU, and it can't just be the language.

People aren't only moving to the UK, people are looking to move to France, to Germany, to Denmark, to Sweden... as well as to the UK. There are a number of reasons but language, economic opportunity, existing family/community in a country are surely big factors.

I've long wondered if back in the day one of the reasons Blair was willing to get involved in Iraq was around concerns about the number of migrants from the region trying to reach the UK, and yet here we are all those decades later with a less stable Middle East and much higher levels of migration. Though part of the increase is it's taken the smugglers time to build their businesses and as ever we're not willing to follow the money and go after the wealthy

If you want to stop them we are back to a need to declare they're invading the UK and being willing to shoot them. The other option would be to change who meets the criteria of a refugee, such that almost nobody makes the criteria, but that might be an even harder effort to make.

And if we look at the numbers who've arrived so far it's frankly not a problem beyond us, though there is a problem if we look at the number of people still in the Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, India, Africa, China, USA,.... It's not today's problems we need an answer for, it's tomorrow's.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Muddle through and do what we can to ensure there are less places people want to leave is what there is

The problem is the list of places seems to be growing - we're not talking Kosovo/Eritrea numbers, the recent arrivals come from around a dozen countries (declared)
circa 400M population.Whilst working on the push factors, it would be interesting to know why the pull of uk
is big enough not to stay put in france or elsewhere in EU, and it can't just be the language.

I've long wondered if back in the day one of the reasons Blair was willing to get involved in Iraq was around concerns about the number of migrants from the region trying to reach the UK, and yet here we are all those decades later with a less stable Middle East and much higher levels of migration.

I doubt it. IMO it was a combination of Blair's enthusiasm for military action in general, perhaps a dream of having his own Falkland's War, and a general knee-jerk obedience to the US. And it would take one hell of an optimist to think that massive military intervention in the Middle East would stabilise things. Of course it did the opposite.

In the end we will never know why Blair did it unless 1) brain-reading machines are invented (difficult) and 2) we get him in one (virtually impossible).

[Digby]

The problem is the list of places seems to be growing - we're not talking Kosovo/Eritrea numbers, the recent arrivals come from around a dozen countries (declared)
circa 400M population.Whilst working on the push factors, it would be interesting to know why the pull of uk
is big enough not to stay put in france or elsewhere in EU, and it can't just be the language.

I've long wondered if back in the day one of the reasons Blair was willing to get involved in Iraq was around concerns about the number of migrants from the region trying to reach the UK, and yet here we are all those decades later with a less stable Middle East and much higher levels of migration.

I doubt it. IMO it was a combination of Blair's enthusiasm for military action in general, perhaps a dream of having his own Falkland's War, and a general knee-jerk obedience to the US. And it would take one hell of an optimist to think that massive military intervention in the Middle East would stabilise things. Of course it did the opposite.

In the end we will never know why Blair did it unless 1) brain-reading machines are invented (difficult) and 2) we get him in one (virtually impossible).

There are a number of briefing documents around ahead of that time identifying migration other than that we sought as an issue and where people were coming/fleeing from. How much it was a factor I don't know, but it probably wasn't a hindrance to invading Iraq.

And yes it would take one hell of an optimist to think they could achieve peace or even stability in the Middle East, but the sort of person with that belief in their vision is the sort of person who tends to end up running a country.

Of course we don't know absent of our invasion things would have remained more stable than they have, though interestingly it's not like we learned much of a lesson as Cameron was very quick to try and involve us in Libya, another failed foreign intervention. Right now we're getting the knee jerk reaction which is to try and isolate ourselves more, but it's only a matter of time before we're back with someone inspired to think they can make a difference

[Stom]

It’s only going to get worse as in a few months, the Uk will have no recourse to send the migrants back to France...

[Eugene Wrayburn]

What Digby said.

And this: Pay for immigration courts and tribunals. Pay for the prosecution of the businesses (and I don't mean one man bands) who employ illegal immigrants. If you don't do these things then people will logically conclude that you aren't serious about restricting them from coming in and working for a decent amount of time, long enough to make a decent amount of money in terms of their country of origin.

We are a country that can and should take refugees. We frankly aren't pulling our weight in that regard because of fortunate geography. If someone isn't a refugee and we determine that we do not want them to enter the country then you rather need to have the administrative heft to deal with it in good time.

[Stom]

What Digby said.

And this: Pay for immigration courts and tribunals. Pay for the prosecution of the businesses (and I don't mean one man bands) who employ illegal immigrants. If you don't do these things then people will logically conclude that you aren't serious about restricting them from coming in and working for a decent amount of time, long enough to make a decent amount of money in terms of their country of origin.

We are a country that can and should take refugees. We frankly aren't pulling our weight in that regard because of fortunate geography. If someone isn't a refugee and we determine that we do not want them to enter the country then you rather need to have the administrative heft to deal with it in good time.

When my wife first came to the Uk, her and her friends needed an NI number to work. But in order to get an NI number, they needed to provide 3 invoices to show they were working.

I mean, what?

[Galfon]

When my wife first came to the Uk, her and her friends needed an NI number to work. But in order to get an NI number, they needed to provide 3 invoices to show they were working.

I mean, what?

My understanding is you need a NI no.to pay tax and NI, and also to claim benefits as these are taxable income.
They won't issue them automatically just because someone lives here, and it is not a legal requirement to have one when working..(but it is to pay NI if earning above the threshold. )

[Galfon]

Interesting article from the grauniad a few years back..
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/m ... side-story

It would be very sad if hard line connection proven between migration policy changes, 2nd iraq war (03) and 'get as many people here from anywhere' ideas to change the landscape of the country.

[Digby]

It’s only going to get worse as in a few months, the Uk will have no recourse to send the migrants back to France...

I was only today listening to Theresa Villiers say the current deal isn't exactly working and thus Brexit gives us a chance to negotiate a better deal. I know she's trying to spin in favour of the government but I did have to smile at her comment

[canta_brian]

Here’s a solution. Allow them in and process their claims for asylum. The UK granted asylum to 18 and a half thousand people in the 12 months to June 2019. If a tiny % arrive in a rubber dinghy so what.

Let’s concentrate on the fact that yesterday the uk had more new covid cases than they have since mid June.

[Puja]

Here’s a solution. Allow them in and process their claims for asylum. The UK granted asylum to 18 and a half thousand people in the 12 months to June 2019. If a tiny % arrive in a rubber dinghy so what.

Let’s concentrate on the fact that yesterday the uk had more new covid cases than they have since mid June.

Puja

[Galfon]

The UK granted asylum to 18 and a half thousand people in the 12 months to June 2019. If a tiny % arrive in a rubber dinghy so what.

Running at c.120/day at the moment.That's around 44k p.a.
that's why it's making the news - few have beef about genuine refugees and uk doing their bit; illegal smuggling brings the unease. If it doesn't matter, the Border force could just ship them over to ensure lives are not endangered.

The spikes in Corona cases across Europe look even more alarming - no lockdown = no escape it seems..

[canta_brian]

The UK granted asylum to 18 and a half thousand people in the 12 months to June 2019. If a tiny % arrive in a rubber dinghy so what.

Running at c.120/day at the moment.That's around 44k p.a.
that's why it's making the news - few have beef about genuine refugees and uk doing their bit; illegal smuggling brings the unease. If it doesn't matter, the Border force could just ship them over to ensure lives are not endangered.

The spikes in Corona cases across Europe look even more alarming - no lockdown = no escape it seems..

I think you will find it is making the news because the right wing media, at the behest of the government, are looking to distract from the clusterfuck that is the pandemic response.

[Galfon]

It's not the media pushing the dinghys out ; Quite rightly the pandemic information remains highest profile, and those warts and scars won't ever go away..
Unfortunately it looks as if things will get worse before getting better.

[canta_brian]

It's not the media pushing the dinghys out ; Quite rightly the pandemic information remains highest profile, and those warts and scars won't ever go away..
Unfortunately it looks as if things will get worse before getting better.

But hey, you keep on swallowing the kool aid if that floats your dinghy.

[Which Tyler]

Quick question. Is the response to BLM till that "all lives matter"?
There are some kids on a dinghy that would like to know

[Galfon]

'sudden' and 'crisis' ? - bit dramatic that.
Home office figures show steady tick-over of channel crossings of c. 200/month for period jul 19 - mar 20., followed by increase to c. 650/month in apr, may & jun, and a further increase to 1100 in july, so yeah it's fake news, good seasonal fodder like giant shark-fins and aggressive sea-gulls.