Refereeing

[Puja]

I watched the Wasps vs Sale and Bristol vs Exeter games back to back and the sheer abrupt quality difference in the refereeing was enough to give me whiplash.

I really want to like Craig Maxwell-Keys - he's a young referee which we always need, but he's just got no minerals when it comes to controlling the game. Wasps committed a selection of penalties in their own 22 in the opening stages - there was only about 3 or 4, but some of them were clearly cynical attempts to kill a Sale maul or attack. That is what a yellow card exists for! It's not a nuclear option to be held back until there is no other choice or until you have given two warnings about it - if someone cheats in a cynical fashion, get them off the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's the first few minutes, it doesn't matter if it's the first offence - they are deliberately cheating to trade a potential try for a penalty (which they succeeded at, as Sale eventually kicked for points, rather than continuing to press for the try). And, if you do it once, I wanna bet no-one else does it for the rest of the game!

Compare my fantasy with what actually happened in the game later, Wasps had a rolling maul going forward at a good clip, Sale had lost their defensive structure, so James Phillips just pulled it down 10m out. He knew that CMK wouldn't yellow him on a first offence and he definitely wouldn't give a penalty try, so it was the right decision for Sale. Stopped a probable try, killed the game in favour of another penalty kick at goal, all because the players knew the ref didn't have the stones to make a decision. Even when did he give a yellow (for Jono Ross clearly and obviously cynically taking out a player chasing a kick through), he had to be bullied into it by the TMO as he was of the opinion that a cynical foul would only be a yellow card if it was killing a clear try-scoring opportunity.

Compare and contrast to Wayne Barnes. He was much stronger in his language to players, much more decisive when giving early decisions (first scrum was one reset and a talking to, followed by a free-kick when they did it again, compared to endless resets under CMK), and didn't actually need to give a yellow because players knew that he might. He exuded confidence and control, whereas CMK seems trepidatious. Barnes required one replay for the potential knock-on before O'Conor's try and, whether you agree with that or not, having 50 replays from different angles wouldn't have actually clarified the situation much and would just have wasted time and made him look indecisive. Whereas the Ross yellow card decision took a solid 4 minutes of umming, aahing, and "Let's see that from the first angle again"ing.

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Quite apart from the above example, I think we've got a dearth of decent referees in the Prem right now. Barnes is clearly far and away above the rest, but he is 41 and won't last forever. I was surprised to learn that the RFU made JP Doyle redundant as part of their cost-cutting efforts after the coronavirus crisis as I quite liked him as a ref. I've got high hopes for Karl Dickson, although he's still got a bit of work to do. Has anyone else got a (domestic) ref that they like or loathe?

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

What's an average sort of shelf life for a ref? I feel like there used to be a few more refs in their 50s knocking around with grey hair? Is that just the game changing?

[Mikey Brown]

I can't retain any information about refs. I don't want to see them or hear any of them as much as we get now, but I'm happy for them to really hammer players with the tough calls whilst we've got this chance to reset the game a bit.

[Puja]

What's an average sort of shelf life for a ref? I feel like there used to be a few more refs in their 50s knocking around with grey hair? Is that just the game changing?

I think that might be the game changing. The fitness requirements for refs in the modern game are mental and Nigel Owens is seen as the outlier by still going at age 49.

Puja

[Oakboy]

How old is CMK? Is he only on the list because young refs are few and far between?

What seems odd is that feedback within the system is not putting him right on Puja's points. He is obviously only capable of about 5/10 at best compared with WB's regular 9/10. Surely, just sitting him in front of last night's two videos would sort a lot out unless he is thick. 'Here's how to do it' v 'Here's what you are doing'.

[fivepointer]

Barnes was excellent and is a cut above all the other Prem refs. In fairness he has been at the top level for a while now. CMK may attain that level. Time will tell.
I think Luke Pearce is a very good ref and also have high hopes for Karl Dickson. Christophe Ridley is another i think might develop into a top ref.
I'm not too keen on Carley or Foley, but the reality is that reffing at this level is very demanding and there isnt a long list of blokes who could do it.
Losing JP is very disappointing as i felt he was an outstanding game manager.

[Stom]

How old is CMK? Is he only on the list because young refs are few and far between?

What seems odd is that feedback within the system is not putting him right on Puja's points. He is obviously only capable of about 5/10 at best compared with WB's regular 9/10. Surely, just sitting him in front of last night's two videos would sort a lot out unless he is thick. 'Here's how to do it' v 'Here's what you are doing'.

Doesn't seem to be a technical flaw or something he can learn through watching videos, more like a mindset issue. I know a couple of seriously good sports psychologists, one was at Newcastle under Richards a couple of years ago: they make a huge difference and he could probably benefit from utilising one.

The RFU should be using them.

[Puja]

How old is CMK? Is he only on the list because young refs are few and far between?

What seems odd is that feedback within the system is not putting him right on Puja's points. He is obviously only capable of about 5/10 at best compared with WB's regular 9/10. Surely, just sitting him in front of last night's two videos would sort a lot out unless he is thick. 'Here's how to do it' v 'Here's what you are doing'.

Doesn't seem to be a technical flaw or something he can learn through watching videos, more like a mindset issue. I know a couple of seriously good sports psychologists, one was at Newcastle under Richards a couple of years ago: they make a huge difference and he could probably benefit from utilising one.

The RFU should be using them.

IIRC, one of his very first Prem games had him receive opprobrium for red carding someone for knocking out George North with a knee, when it was clearly an accidental collision. Maybe that knocked his confidence to be strict on offences and get the card out?

Puja

[Stom]

How old is CMK? Is he only on the list because young refs are few and far between?

What seems odd is that feedback within the system is not putting him right on Puja's points. He is obviously only capable of about 5/10 at best compared with WB's regular 9/10. Surely, just sitting him in front of last night's two videos would sort a lot out unless he is thick. 'Here's how to do it' v 'Here's what you are doing'.

Doesn't seem to be a technical flaw or something he can learn through watching videos, more like a mindset issue. I know a couple of seriously good sports psychologists, one was at Newcastle under Richards a couple of years ago: they make a huge difference and he could probably benefit from utilising one.

The RFU should be using them.

IIRC, one of his very first Prem games had him receive opprobrium for red carding someone for knocking out George North with a knee, when it was clearly an accidental collision. Maybe that knocked his confidence to be strict on offences and get the card out?

Puja

Well indeed. We have access to mind coaches and psychologists now, they should be used. Hell, I should give him my wife's number, maybe she'd learn a bit more about rugby in the process! lol

[Gloskarlos]

Luke Pearce was very inconsistent for the Glos Brizz game, I want him to do well, but he’s not started the season too well. I like Dickson, always been more or less happy with his reffing, they do all need to aspire to the Barnes level though.

[Raggs]

How old is CMK? Is he only on the list because young refs are few and far between?

What seems odd is that feedback within the system is not putting him right on Puja's points. He is obviously only capable of about 5/10 at best compared with WB's regular 9/10. Surely, just sitting him in front of last night's two videos would sort a lot out unless he is thick. 'Here's how to do it' v 'Here's what you are doing'.

Doesn't seem to be a technical flaw or something he can learn through watching videos, more like a mindset issue. I know a couple of seriously good sports psychologists, one was at Newcastle under Richards a couple of years ago: they make a huge difference and he could probably benefit from utilising one.

The RFU should be using them.

IIRC, one of his very first Prem games had him receive opprobrium for red carding someone for knocking out George North with a knee, when it was clearly an accidental collision. Maybe that knocked his confidence to be strict on offences and get the card out?

Puja

It was Hughes and north. He's always since been a ref I've felt that wasps have had to overcome in a game as well as the opposition. Very hard for wasps to get a decision out of him.

[Peej]

I also like Dickson, but think Ridley or Pearce is the best of the pack behind Barnes. Carley, Foley and Tempest are all equally terrible

[Raggs]

I also like Dickson, but think Ridley or Pearce is the best of the pack behind Barnes. Carley, Foley and Tempest are all equally terrible

Think Dickson is better than both Ridley and Pearce, but I think a lot of that comes from his experiences, they'll surely get there. Dickson is probably one of my favourite refs at the moment, like Pearce and Ridley though.

Actively dislike seeing CMK, not crazy about Carley or Foley, but not too upset either.

[Cameo]

Watching a few games of the prem (and Glasgow Edinburgh) after seeing most of Super Rugby Aotearoa, it seems like the refs in the NH are following up on the increased strictness at the ruck but aren't doing the same for offside. I really hope they start soon.

My comment on Barnes is my usual. I think he's a great game manager, I just disagree with quite a lot of his decisions (more than with some others). Not completely outrageous but that looked like a clear knock on for Bristol's try.

[Banquo]

It's a very difficult gig, made more difficult by constant updating on 'interpretations' (even if they have a positive intent), increasingly whiny and dissenting players, and frankly over-coached teams who analyse every which way to game whatever interpretations come into force; its a complex game, so angles are easy to find if you are that way minded.

It also can't be a surprise that a highly experienced ref towards the end of his career is much better than one starting out.

[Shiny]

I thought Barnes did well as the TMO last night guiding Ridley to generally the right decisions and kept up a good communication throughout. Hopefully when he hangs up his boots he will become a TMO.

[Beasties]

Ridley has generally been very good since he started. Haven't seen him for a while though. JP was very good but had been on the downward performance curve for a while now imo. Still surprised he was dropped though.

[Raggs]

Ridley has generally been very good since he started. Haven't seen him for a while though. JP was very good but had been on the downward performance curve for a while now imo. Still surprised he was dropped though.

I suspect between the downwards curve and probably commanding one of the largest pay packages...

[Which Tyler]

I thought Barnes did well as the TMO last night guiding Ridley to generally the right decisions and kept up a good communication throughout. Hopefully when he hangs up his boots he will become a TMO.

I felt they both had a god day at the office.
Missed a few forward passes - but mostly of the offload variety which are always tougher to call as a ref.
The only real mistake IMO was the failure to penalise Hutchinson(?) for the high hit on TdG in the act of scoring. It should have been that the try stands, Hutchinson heads off for 10 minutes, and a penalty restart from the centre spot.
They didn't even mention it, despite how long TdG was being assessed at the side of the pitch right next to him. I suspect that the delay in awarding the try meant that they didn't want to delay things further by going through all the protocols on that as well, let alone with putting themselves in the middle of a controversy.

[Mellsblue]

Rugby World Mag’s One Game at a Time podcast has an interesting episode with Karl Dickson about being a ref:

[Mikey Brown]

I thought there was a recent discussion around box kicks and caterpillar rucks but I gave up trying to find it.

This made me laugh, but also I think it’s probably for the better of the game if every side nominates a Rob Harley of their own at the ruck. Maybe the point will get across if everyone starts doing this.

[Raggs]

Now the player definitely went over time, but the shouting player was going too quickly. If he Mississippily counted it, and started on 5 as soon as the ref shouted, it would have probably worked.

Some refs don't like it, but I'd tell the ref I'm not doing it to put off the scrum half, I'm doing it to prepare the defence (honest guvnor...).

[Puja]

I thought there was a recent discussion around box kicks and caterpillar rucks but I gave up trying to find it.

This made me laugh, but also I think it’s probably for the better of the game if every side nominates a Rob Harley of their own at the ruck. Maybe the point will get across if everyone starts doing this.

I've seen referees get narky with players for doing that though - Marler did it last year and was told if he didn't stop, the ref would give a penalty cause it was questioning his decisions.

In other news, interesting appointments for the 8N this autumn (if it happens). Joy Neville gets her first men's Test with Wales vs Georgia, and Karl Dickson gets his first big Test with France vs Wales. I rate them both as up-and-coming referees, so good to see them getting opportunities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54285375

Puja

[Peej]

Joy Neville as TMO though, not the person with the whistle

[Puja]

Joy Neville as TMO though, not the person with the whistle

Ah sh*t - I misread the article. What a let-down. I don't really see why she isn't given a Test - she's a very talented ref and her performances in domestic rugby have shown that she's got no problem with handling men's games.

Puja