Italy vs England and 6N permutations

[FKAS]

From the training vids, Maro looks (predictably) like an absolute colossus. Manhandled Genge twice.

The bit in the game where Genge made a powerful crashball run and just got stopped dead and then driven back by Itoje was a thing of utter beauty. Hopefully some valuable lessons about technique for Genge, but Itoje just doesn't seem to stop improving. I really hope he does get to go do some Super Rugby in the new year; I'd love to see him measure up and learn from time at a Kiwi franchise.

Puja

The Kiwis will swing from jaw grinding annoyance that they have to admit Itoje is the best lock in world rugby to delight at claiming they are the making of him.

[Danno]

Can you have him de-barked before sending him down?

Eh? I hope you're talking about his chattering

[morepork]

Yes. "Chattering", aka, shouty shout shout.

[Puja]

Yes. "Chattering", aka, shouty shout shout.

He's actually cut way down on that over the past couple of years (to my pleasure). Also, don't you guys have Ardie Savea who did a weird roaring thing twice in the RWC semi-final? Pot, kettle, etc. At least Itoje does it when he's winning.

Puja

[morepork]

You spiteful little bitch.

[francoisfou]

Can you have him de-barked before sending him down?

Could we send Farrell to NZ too, for a minimum of ten years?

[Oakboy]

Can you have him de-barked before sending him down?

Could we send Farrell to NZ too, for a minimum of ten years?

In the DT today, in the context of Lawrence's possible selection at 12, Solomons is quoted as describing Farrell as the 'best FH in the world'!!!!!

[Which Tyler]

Can you have him de-barked before sending him down?

Could we send Farrell to NZ too, for a minimum of ten years?

If we're waiting for a slick mis-pass off his left to find a runner with space in front of him... It'll take longer than that.

[Puja]

You spiteful little bitch.

You're welcome.

Can you have him de-barked before sending him down?

Could we send Farrell to NZ too, for a minimum of ten years?

I would actually be ridiculously in favour of this. He needs to be challenged and learn how far he is off the pace to be the best in the world. There are a few pundits who could do with learning that too.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54719707

Heinz out. I guess that's 74-80 minutes for Youngs then.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Am hearing Lawrence to start, Obano, Hill and Willis on the bench, and a 6/2 split with Earl on the bench too in the forwards.

That said, it could be the voices in the my head, but at least they're not telling me to stop killing again.

[Mikey Brown]

Happy with all of that except 6/2. I really hope that's not going to be a fixture now we've nicked SA's coach.

[Oakboy]

He needs to be challenged and learn how far he is off the pace to be the best in the world. There are a few pundits who could do with learning that too.

Puja

Puja, the part I don't understand is that it is not just pundits (i.e. conceivably, those who get into media slots because they are not good enough to coach). It is active DORs/Head coaches etc. I dislike the Lions concept in the professional era intensely and don't usually have any interest in who is selected BUT Farrell will be at 10 against Japan in the warm-up game in what looks like being another big advantage for Saracens players. So add them up: Jones, Gatland, Solomons etc.

What do they see that we don't?

Of course, if the Lions included all 6N countries, as the concept (with any credibility) should, the French 9/10 would probably get in!

[Oakboy]

Happy with all of that except 6/2. I really hope that's not going to be a fixture now we've nicked SA's coach.

I thought the 6:2 split only really worked with Ford/Farrell in the starting XV. Which two backs on the bench now?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Happy with all of that except 6/2. I really hope that's not going to be a fixture now we've nicked SA's coach.

I thought the 6:2 split only really worked with Ford/Farrell in the starting XV. Which two backs on the bench now?

Robson and Joseph is what I've heard.

Again, could be bollocks, but the guy is usually pretty accurate.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Happy with all of that except 6/2. I really hope that's not going to be a fixture now we've nicked SA's coach.

Me too, if it turns out to be right. There's no way you need a 6/2 split vs Italy really. I'd rather bring impactful backs off the bench than have an extra forward.

[Puja]

Am hearing Lawrence to start, Obano, Hill and Willis on the bench, and a 6/2 split with Earl on the bench too in the forwards.

That said, it could be the voices in the my head, but at least they're not telling me to stop killing again.

JHill rather than THill on the bench, I presume. Otherwise we'd've gone from a surfeit of locks in the XXIII to a deficit.

Happy with all of that except 6/2. I really hope that's not going to be a fixture now we've nicked SA's coach.

I thought the 6:2 split only really worked with Ford/Farrell in the starting XV. Which two backs on the bench now?

You are forgetting that Earl is actually wing cover as well now.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

Am hearing Lawrence to start, Obano, Hill and Willis on the bench, and a 6/2 split with Earl on the bench too in the forwards.

That said, it could be the voices in the my head, but at least they're not telling me to stop killing again.

JHill rather than THill on the bench, I presume. Otherwise we'd've gone from a surfeit of locks in the XXIII to a deficit.

Happy with all of that except 6/2. I really hope that's not going to be a fixture now we've nicked SA's coach.

I thought the 6:2 split only really worked with Ford/Farrell in the starting XV. Which two backs on the bench now?

You are forgetting that Earl is actually wing cover as well now.

Puja

Yes J Hill. He did also say Furbank at fullback, with May and Watson either side, and Slade at 13.

I've got a feeling it will be Ewels, as I just can't see so many debutants in the pack.

What I've heard (what I think):

Mako
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Launchbury
Curry
Underhill
Vunipola
Youngs
Farrell
May
Lawrence
Slade
Watson (Thorley)
Furbank (Watson)

Obano (Genge)
Dunn
Stuart
J Hill (Ewels)
Willis
Earl (Robson)
Robson (Umaga)
Joseph

[fivepointer]

He needs to be challenged and learn how far he is off the pace to be the best in the world. There are a few pundits who could do with learning that too.

Puja

Puja, the part I don't understand is that it is not just pundits (i.e. conceivably, those who get into media slots because they are not good enough to coach). It is active DORs/Head coaches etc. I dislike the Lions concept in the professional era intensely and don't usually have any interest in who is selected BUT Farrell will be at 10 against Japan in the warm-up game in what looks like being another big advantage for Saracens players. So add them up: Jones, Gatland, Solomons etc.

What do they see that we don't?

Of course, if the Lions included all 6N countries, as the concept (with any credibility) should, the French 9/10 would probably get in!

Funny innit...successive coaches rate him, many former players thinks he's top drawer, many current internationals speak highly of him.
Among them are people who plainly know what they're talking about. Know the game inside out and have played or coached at the highest level.
It's not an aberration among people in the game: a significant number of rational, knowledgable and perceptive people rate Farrell.
I've long come to the conclusion that they must be right. Farrell is a considerable asset to any team. What other conclusion can there be?

[Danno]

What time do we all get slightly irritated? 11.30?

[Epaminondas Pules]

He needs to be challenged and learn how far he is off the pace to be the best in the world. There are a few pundits who could do with learning that too.

Puja

Puja, the part I don't understand is that it is not just pundits (i.e. conceivably, those who get into media slots because they are not good enough to coach). It is active DORs/Head coaches etc. I dislike the Lions concept in the professional era intensely and don't usually have any interest in who is selected BUT Farrell will be at 10 against Japan in the warm-up game in what looks like being another big advantage for Saracens players. So add them up: Jones, Gatland, Solomons etc.

What do they see that we don't?

Of course, if the Lions included all 6N countries, as the concept (with any credibility) should, the French 9/10 would probably get in!

Funny innit...successive coaches rate him, many former players thinks he's top drawer, many current internationals speak highly of him.
Among them are people who plainly know what they're talking about. Know the game inside out and have played or coached at the highest level.
It's not an aberration among people in the game: a significant number of rational, knowledgable and perceptive people rate Farrell.
I've long come to the conclusion that they must be right. Farrell is a considerable asset to any team. What other conclusion can there be?

I think there is no doubt that he is a valuable asset. So many people that see things far closer than we do all agree, even with him playing 12. What exacerbates the issue is the pundit hyperbole, which is usually stoked by the likes of Woodentwat, or Barnes, or Cleary who should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be taken seriously. In essence the messageboard and pundit views are both skewed and exaggerated in opposing directions. People closet to the game favour him. I'll generally go with that, even though I can see limitations in his play.

[Mikey Brown]

He needs to be challenged and learn how far he is off the pace to be the best in the world. There are a few pundits who could do with learning that too.

Puja

Puja, the part I don't understand is that it is not just pundits (i.e. conceivably, those who get into media slots because they are not good enough to coach). It is active DORs/Head coaches etc. I dislike the Lions concept in the professional era intensely and don't usually have any interest in who is selected BUT Farrell will be at 10 against Japan in the warm-up game in what looks like being another big advantage for Saracens players. So add them up: Jones, Gatland, Solomons etc.

What do they see that we don't?

Of course, if the Lions included all 6N countries, as the concept (with any credibility) should, the French 9/10 would probably get in!

The way I see it, having Farrell on the pitch is the next best thing to Jones being on the pitch himself making the calls. He's vocal, his work-rate is insane and if you want to keep robotically running the phases it seems like he's very good at that.

I guess issues and inconsistencies some of us see in his skillset just aren't as important as those strengths, to a lot of coaches. It's interesting he's so highly rated yet has been moved aside for Ford and Sexton though, just having him on the pitch seems worth it.

As ever I think it's easy to under-rate a player who seems so widely over-rated. He's a very good player, just not as good as the hype. Also I don't imagine the coaches watch broadcasted games with the same bullshit commentary as us normies, repeatedly having the strange experience where he makes a massive error and they all pretend he didn't.

Now that seemingly every ball out to the backs goes 9 -> 12 -> forward runner/10-out-the-back, I actually don't mind him so much at 12. He can just do his Saracens phase-robot thing and then when we want to move it we use Ford. I feel like his lack of threat to the line is just as much a problem at 10 as at 12.

[Stom]

Puja, the part I don't understand is that it is not just pundits (i.e. conceivably, those who get into media slots because they are not good enough to coach). It is active DORs/Head coaches etc. I dislike the Lions concept in the professional era intensely and don't usually have any interest in who is selected BUT Farrell will be at 10 against Japan in the warm-up game in what looks like being another big advantage for Saracens players. So add them up: Jones, Gatland, Solomons etc.

What do they see that we don't?

Of course, if the Lions included all 6N countries, as the concept (with any credibility) should, the French 9/10 would probably get in!

Funny innit...successive coaches rate him, many former players thinks he's top drawer, many current internationals speak highly of him.
Among them are people who plainly know what they're talking about. Know the game inside out and have played or coached at the highest level.
It's not an aberration among people in the game: a significant number of rational, knowledgable and perceptive people rate Farrell.
I've long come to the conclusion that they must be right. Farrell is a considerable asset to any team. What other conclusion can there be?

I think there is no doubt that he is a valuable asset. So many people that see things far closer than we do all agree, even with him playing 12. What exacerbates the issue is the pundit hyperbole, which is usually stoked by the likes of Woodentwat, or Barnes, or Cleary who should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be taken seriously. In essence the messageboard and pundit views are both skewed and exaggerated in opposing directions. People closet to the game favour him. I'll generally go with that, even though I can see limitations in his play.

But I’d like to see coaches questioned on that, or former coaches. I mean, he’s obviously not our best passer, tactical kicker, runner, game manager, defender... so what is it that makes him so good? Is it really just that he doesn’t shut up?

I mean, I understand the importance of that, especially considering the previous England team was way too quiet, but we’re full of talkative buggers now. George, Maro, Curry, Ford... granted there aren’t actually many in the backs.

[Oakboy]

BBC announce Johnny Hill starting.

[Banquo]

Am hearing Lawrence to start, Obano, Hill and Willis on the bench, and a 6/2 split with Earl on the bench too in the forwards.

That said, it could be the voices in the my head, but at least they're not telling me to stop killing again.

You need to have a word with your sources!!