Italy vs England and 6N permutations

[Adam_P]

Yep, has stepped in at 10 multiple times for Saints when the starting fly half has gone off injured.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I can understand the logic behind selecting Furbank. He was in the England pre-6N squad with these coaches and played 2 games at the start of the year and has had the benefit of nearly the entire pre-Autumn training camp. Malins has had under a week to learn the systems for the first time.

I guess the same logic applies to Willis, although I am more disappointed in that as I think he's a special player and a special case. Clearly Eddie thinks that applies to JHill over Ewels (who was the other captain opposite Fazlet in that intra-squad match last week!) and is confident that Slade can drop in at 12 for England despite not having played there in 5 years. Guess Eddie meant it when he said that 12 and 13 are functionally the same position nowadays!

Puja

Hey, it's only 3 years. Though you have to wonder why Tuilagi was the one to shift to 12 previously if we could have kept similar patterns for 10.Ford/Faz 12. Faz/Slade 13.Tuilagi/Joseph.

Will be interesting to see where Lawrence comes on and if they switch things up at that point. Seems a waste of time to put Slade at 12 and then shift him after 50 minutes though.

Furbank is backup 10, with Thorley coming in and Watson to 15?

Or Slade to 15 and one of the wingers in a straight swap with Thorley.

[Raggs]

Hasn't Slade always looked fairly poor at 12?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Hasn't Slade always looked fairly poor at 12?

Dunno, he's only played there about 8 times, most of which were the best part of 6/7 years ago.

[Oakboy]

I can see Slade being 10 and 15 cover.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I can understand the logic behind selecting Furbank. He was in the England pre-6N squad with these coaches and played 2 games at the start of the year and has had the benefit of nearly the entire pre-Autumn training camp. Malins has had under a week to learn the systems for the first time.

I guess the same logic applies to Willis, although I am more disappointed in that as I think he's a special player and a special case. Clearly Eddie thinks that applies to JHill over Ewels (who was the other captain opposite Fazlet in that intra-squad match last week!) and is confident that Slade can drop in at 12 for England despite not having played there in 5 years. Guess Eddie meant it when he said that 12 and 13 are functionally the same position nowadays!

Puja

Hey, it's only 3 years. Though you have to wonder why Tuilagi was the one to shift to 12 previously if we could have kept similar patterns for 10.Ford/Faz 12. Faz/Slade 13.Tuilagi/Joseph.

Furbank is backup 10, with Thorley coming in and Watson to 15?

I actually respect the idea of being able to change the point of attack depending on the opposition, with the creativity going from 10 to 13. Gave us options.

When was Slade 12 for England in 2017 then? I had assumed he was last playing 12 in the warmups for RWC 2015.

Puja

Argentina in the Autumn and then as a sub vs Aus. Played 13 on the summer tour to Aus, with Loz and Francis playing 12, and then played 13 against Samoa with Francis at 12.

[Banquo]

Am hearing Lawrence to start, Obano, Hill and Willis on the bench, and a 6/2 split with Earl on the bench too in the forwards.

That said, it could be the voices in the my head, but at least they're not telling me to stop killing again.

You need to have a word with your sources!!

Damn straight, though I'm oddly pleased.....Willis aside.

Yep

[Banquo]

Good - Slade at 12.
Bad - no Willis, Furbank at 15.

Willis is a young player just joining his first international squad. The other backrows have had more squad time. Eddie will want him up to speed before including him. I think that's a good choice.

I have no idea why Furbank is in there. There's a better fullback in the squad. There's better fullbacks not called up.

Willis is older than both Curry and Earl just FYI. Personally I think he brings something different to the party that we could do with.

[Raggs]

Good - Slade at 12.
Bad - no Willis, Furbank at 15.

Willis is a young player just joining his first international squad. The other backrows have had more squad time. Eddie will want him up to speed before including him. I think that's a good choice.

I have no idea why Furbank is in there. There's a better fullback in the squad. There's better fullbacks not called up.

Willis is older than both Curry and Earl just FYI. Personally I think he brings something different to the party that we could do with.

I think it's more that Willis has only just arrived in camp. If he doesn't get serious game time I'll be disappointed.

[Oakboy]

Good - Slade at 12.
Bad - no Willis, Furbank at 15.

Willis is a young player just joining his first international squad. The other backrows have had more squad time. Eddie will want him up to speed before including him. I think that's a good choice.

I have no idea why Furbank is in there. There's a better fullback in the squad. There's better fullbacks not called up.

Willis is older than both Curry and Earl just FYI. Personally I think he brings something different to the party that we could do with.

The crazy thing is that Willis might have been more useful in this particular game scenario than Billy V. If the final game had been against anyone else other than Italy I'd accept the back row selection even though I'd have still had Wilis ahead of Earl on the bench.

[Stom]

Overall, it's not bad. Would have preferred Willis on the bench, of course, but overall that's a pretty OK squad. Shame about 9/10. Otherwise, a very good looking team.

[FKAS]

Good - Slade at 12.
Bad - no Willis, Furbank at 15.

Willis is a young player just joining his first international squad. The other backrows have had more squad time. Eddie will want him up to speed before including him. I think that's a good choice.

I have no idea why Furbank is in there. There's a better fullback in the squad. There's better fullbacks not called up.

Willis is older than both Curry and Earl just FYI. Personally I think he brings something different to the party that we could do with.

Curry and Earl have both been in squad before though and know how Eddie operates. Neither were in the Prem Final so have had more prep time with the squad.

I'm sure Willis will be capped shortly. He's exactly the type of flanker Eddie seems to like. I also think Eddie will develop his game further, which in a way is worrying.

[Puja]

Hey, it's only 3 years. Though you have to wonder why Tuilagi was the one to shift to 12 previously if we could have kept similar patterns for 10.Ford/Faz 12. Faz/Slade 13.Tuilagi/Joseph.

Furbank is backup 10, with Thorley coming in and Watson to 15?

I actually respect the idea of being able to change the point of attack depending on the opposition, with the creativity going from 10 to 13. Gave us options.

When was Slade 12 for England in 2017 then? I had assumed he was last playing 12 in the warmups for RWC 2015.

Puja

Argentina in the Autumn and then as a sub vs Aus. Played 13 on the summer tour to Aus, with Loz and Francis playing 12, and then played 13 against Samoa with Francis at 12.

Good knowledge, thanks.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Surprised that Jonny Hill starts rather than benches after his last few weeks, have to trust their S&C decision there.

I really don't see anything in Furbank that puts him ahead of Malins (or Watson) at FB - but its no surprise that Eddie does.


Earl over Willis is the only thing that actively makes me sad - which is nothing against Earl, and may "just" be a reflection of time in-camp. The same may well have out paid to Malins at FB.
Obviously, Young's makes me sad, but I've grown accustomed to that


The only other change I see from MY 23, is Genge in for Obano, which now picking the better player over a kinder debut

[Banquo]

Willis is a young player just joining his first international squad. The other backrows have had more squad time. Eddie will want him up to speed before including him. I think that's a good choice.

I have no idea why Furbank is in there. There's a better fullback in the squad. There's better fullbacks not called up.

Willis is older than both Curry and Earl just FYI. Personally I think he brings something different to the party that we could do with.

I think it's more that Willis has only just arrived in camp. If he doesn't get serious game time I'll be disappointed.

So have a few others, but I agree with the second part

[WaspInWales]

Yep, has stepped in at 10 multiple times for Saints when the starting fly half has gone off injured.

Cheers.

Nothing to worry about at this level then?

[Banquo]

Willis is a young player just joining his first international squad. The other backrows have had more squad time. Eddie will want him up to speed before including him. I think that's a good choice.

I have no idea why Furbank is in there. There's a better fullback in the squad. There's better fullbacks not called up.

Willis is older than both Curry and Earl just FYI. Personally I think he brings something different to the party that we could do with.

Curry and Earl have both been in squad before though and know how Eddie operates. Neither were in the Prem Final so have had more prep time with the squad.

I'm sure Willis will be capped shortly. He's exactly the type of flanker Eddie seems to like. I also think Eddie will develop his game further, which in a way is worrying.

As before, others are fresh into this current squad. But you are probably right- just think Willis potentially offers a real point of difference for the team.

[Shiny]

15. George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 50 caps)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 56 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 83 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 99 caps)
1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 59 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 49 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 35 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 38 caps)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
6. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 23 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Tom Dunn, (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 3 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 2 caps)
22. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
23. Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)

I like that. There's opportunity to mix it up somewhat in the next game, and even then there's potentially four debutants and another four players with 3 caps or less in this 23.

Nostrapuja predicts:
Ewels will come on for Hill after 45 minutes. Genge will come on after 60 minutes. Lawrence will come on for Slade after 65 minutes. Stuart, Earl, Robson and Thorley will come on between the 72nd minute and the 79th. Tom Dunn will continue coming within touching distance of a first cap then having it yanked away from him by not coming on at all. Possibly to make it hurt even worse, George will get a yellow card and then there won't be a single scrum for 10 minutes.

Puja

Its 2020, nothing would surprise me this year.

[Raggs]

If we're playing to a system that has a distributor at 15, then Watson just doesn't fit.

[Oakboy]

If we're playing to a system that has a distributor at 15, then Watson just doesn't fit.

Neither does Furbank if he keeps dropping the ball!! 0

[Puja]

Willis is older than both Curry and Earl just FYI. Personally I think he brings something different to the party that we could do with.

I think it's more that Willis has only just arrived in camp. If he doesn't get serious game time I'll be disappointed.

So have a few others, but I agree with the second part

Mind, the only other player who has just arrived, without recent experience of England, and has gone into the XXIII is Jonny Hill and he's in a much less competitive area. The gap between Hill and Ewels on current form is significantly larger than the gap between Underhill, Curry, BillyV, or Earl. Where there's finer margins, I'm okay with the decision to not dump him in after four days' training.

I mean, I'd've picked him myself, but I do understand it.

Puja

[Raggs]

I think it's more that Willis has only just arrived in camp. If he doesn't get serious game time I'll be disappointed.

So have a few others, but I agree with the second part

Mind, the only other player who has just arrived, without recent experience of England, and has gone into the XXIII is Jonny Hill and he's in a much less competitive area. The gap between Hill and Ewels on current form is significantly larger than the gap between Underhill, Curry, BillyV, or Earl. Where there's finer margins, I'm okay with the decision to not dump him in after four days' training.

I mean, I'd've picked him myself, but I do understand it.

Puja

Hill has had previous experience though. I am surprised he goes in front of Launch, but maybe there's s&c issues.

[Puja]

So have a few others, but I agree with the second part

Mind, the only other player who has just arrived, without recent experience of England, and has gone into the XXIII is Jonny Hill and he's in a much less competitive area. The gap between Hill and Ewels on current form is significantly larger than the gap between Underhill, Curry, BillyV, or Earl. Where there's finer margins, I'm okay with the decision to not dump him in after four days' training.

I mean, I'd've picked him myself, but I do understand it.

Puja

Hill has had previous experience though. I am surprised he goes in front of Launch, but maybe there's s&c issues.

I would personally count a tour from 2018, back before John Mitchell's involvement, let alone Proudfoot or Amor, as being largely irrelevant to integration into the current England squad.

Puja

[francoisfou]

If this side doesn't win by at least 50 - even with him at fly half, and a far from convincing fullback, then I'll eat my missus' hat (mine's too old and dirty!)

[Banquo]

I think it's more that Willis has only just arrived in camp. If he doesn't get serious game time I'll be disappointed.

So have a few others, but I agree with the second part

Mind, the only other player who has just arrived, without recent experience of England, and has gone into the XXIII is Jonny Hill and he's in a much less competitive area. The gap between Hill and Ewels on current form is significantly larger than the gap between Underhill, Curry, BillyV, or Earl. Where there's finer margins, I'm okay with the decision to not dump him in after four days' training.

I mean, I'd've picked him myself, but I do understand it.

Puja

Assuming you don’t rate Launchbury or Ewels then?