Italy vs England and 6N permutations

[16th man]

Vs thar Barbarians side i'm not sure another week's training wasn't more valuable.

Can't believe Italy will be improved enough by the run out they got for the extra analysis material it gives us to be outweighed.

[Digby]

Playing games is surely more valuable than training, even against unorganised drunks as with the BaaBaas

[Raggs]

I know Eddie has picked a couple of question marks for this game, but is anyone else seeing a load of people reckoning that Eddie should be shipped out? It strikes me as crazy right now, even ignoring the paucity of options out there (I'm sorry, I do not consider Baxter as a good option as head coach of England with 0 international experience), Eddie has a fantastic record.

[fivepointer]

I know Eddie has picked a couple of question marks for this game, but is anyone else seeing a load of people reckoning that Eddie should be shipped out? It strikes me as crazy right now, even ignoring the paucity of options out there (I'm sorry, I do not consider Baxter as a good option as head coach of England with 0 international experience), Eddie has a fantastic record.

Who is calling for Jones to go?

Its utterly mad. Jones may not be everyone's cup of tea but his record is very impressive and he certainly deserves the chance to take us forward for the next season or two at least.

[Oakboy]

I know Eddie has picked a couple of question marks for this game, but is anyone else seeing a load of people reckoning that Eddie should be shipped out? It strikes me as crazy right now, even ignoring the paucity of options out there (I'm sorry, I do not consider Baxter as a good option as head coach of England with 0 international experience), Eddie has a fantastic record.

Who is calling for Jones to go?

Its utterly mad. Jones may not be everyone's cup of tea but his record is very impressive and he certainly deserves the chance to take us forward for the next season or two at least.

I've seen nothing recent about getting rid of Jones. I did suggest that he needs to win this 6N or he will have failed to win the last three competitive tournaments but even then the RFU will not dump him.

As regards his record, I'd not go that far overboard. He has had the best group of players ever so one GS and one 6N win so far is no better than par. Coming 5th in the 2019 6N was not exactly fantastic.

SH pundits warned right from his appointment that he runs out of steam. I think we should be wary of that. IMO, it all depends on the coaching team that he maintains. There has been a fair turnover in that and the jury is out on the current lot.

[jngf]

I know Eddie has picked a couple of question marks for this game, but is anyone else seeing a load of people reckoning that Eddie should be shipped out? It strikes me as crazy right now, even ignoring the paucity of options out there (I'm sorry, I do not consider Baxter as a good option as head coach of England with 0 international experience), Eddie has a fantastic record.

Who is calling for Jones to go?

Its utterly mad. Jones may not be everyone's cup of tea but his record is very impressive and he certainly deserves the chance to take us forward for the next season or two at least.

I've seen nothing recent about getting rid of Jones. I did suggest that he needs to win this 6N or he will have failed to win the last three competitive tournaments but even then the RFU will not dump him.

As regards his record, I'd not go that far overboard. He has had the best group of players ever so one GS and one 6N win so far is no better than par. Coming 5th in the 2019 6N was not exactly fantastic.

SH pundits warned right from his appointment that he runs out of steam. I think we should be wary of that. IMO, it all depends on the coaching team that he maintains. There has been a fair turnover in that and the jury is out on the current lot.

At the time of World Cup final I said this was as far as England can go with Jones - since then law of diminishing returns has began to set in and whilst with the squad and a few tweaks (and some more good luck) England could conceivably get to another World Cup final it won’t do with Jones at the helm imo. Unlike SCW post ‘99 World Cup I simply don’t think Jones’ articulated a vision of what England need to do go one better and win it nor convinced he has any thought through strategy on how to do so....

[Raggs]

We came 2nd in the 2019 6n, it was 2018 when we came 5th, after the lions.

[Mikey Brown]

But you were saying that within a week of the best England performance for like 15 years. Somehow only getting to the World Cup final was a complete failure.

Is his lack of plan/vision/strategy just based on the 2020 6 nations so far?

[Oakboy]

But you were saying that within a week of the best England performance for like 15 years. Somehow only getting to the World Cup final was a complete failure.

Is his lack of plan/vision/strategy just based on the 2020 6 nations so far?

MB, is that aimed at me? The RWC SF was splendid and I did not mind losing the final to SA having predicted before the tournament started that they would win. I remain mystified and disappointed that we did not turn up for the final and I would have sacked Jones the next day. Turning our SF performance into that final performance remains the biggest failure in international rugby management, IMO. I accept absolute prejudice because I never wanted him appointed in the first place and I still dislike the man based on his public appearances and utterances - all I have to go on.

From this point on, we just have to put up with him till the RFU find someone better.

[Mellsblue]

From this point on, we just have to put up with him till the RFU find someone better.

Who is......

[morepork]

Another Star Wars character, like jar jar binks.

[Mikey Brown]

But you were saying that within a week of the best England performance for like 15 years. Somehow only getting to the World Cup final was a complete failure.

Is his lack of plan/vision/strategy just based on the 2020 6 nations so far?

MB, is that aimed at me? The RWC SF was splendid and I did not mind losing the final to SA having predicted before the tournament started that they would win. I remain mystified and disappointed that we did not turn up for the final and I would have sacked Jones the next day. Turning our SF performance into that final performance remains the biggest failure in international rugby management, IMO. I accept absolute prejudice because I never wanted him appointed in the first place and I still dislike the man based on his public appearances and utterances - all I have to go on.

From this point on, we just have to put up with him till the RFU find someone better.

Well it was aimed at Jngf but sounds like it fits with your opinion too.

For the record, I think Jones is occasionally quite entertaining but mostly a bit of a twat. He’s quite petty and seems rabidly insecure about what people think of him and his selections/tactics, but he seems to be doing a pretty good job despite that.

2018 was pretty rough and he took a lot of shit for it. But he turned things around and almost took England to the title. It’s still really gutting that the final went the way it did.

I suppose it’s anyone’s guess whether he has it in him to drive the team on and go one game better next time, but listening to the SA guys talk about their mindset that day I think it’s doing SA a disservice to say it was purely an England/Eddie failure.

I hope he’s got plans to address the mental side of things rather than just trying to replicate that South African pack.

[jngf]

But you were saying that within a week of the best England performance for like 15 years. Somehow only getting to the World Cup final was a complete failure.

Is his lack of plan/vision/strategy just based on the 2020 6 nations so far?

MB, is that aimed at me? The RWC SF was splendid and I did not mind losing the final to SA having predicted before the tournament started that they would win. I remain mystified and disappointed that we did not turn up for the final and I would have sacked Jones the next day. Turning our SF performance into that final performance remains the biggest failure in international rugby management, IMO. I accept absolute prejudice because I never wanted him appointed in the first place and I still dislike the man based on his public appearances and utterances - all I have to go on.

From this point on, we just have to put up with him till the RFU find someone better.

Well it was aimed at Jngf but sounds like it fits with your opinion too.

For the record, I think Jones is occasionally quite entertaining but mostly a bit of a twat. He’s quite petty and seems rabidly insecure about what people think of him and his selections/tactics, but he seems to be doing a pretty good job despite that.

2018 was pretty rough and he took a lot of shit for it. But he turned things around and almost took England to the title. It’s still really gutting that the final went the way it did.

I suppose it’s anyone’s guess whether he has it in him to drive the team on and go one game better next time, but listening to the SA guys talk about their mindset that day I think it’s doing SA a disservice to say it was purely an England/Eddie failure.

I hope he’s got plans to address the mental side of things rather than just trying to replicate that South African pack.

Remind you of somebody else?

[Mikey Brown]

Corbyn?

[Oakboy]

From this point on, we just have to put up with him till the RFU find someone better.

Who is......

Who knows? Maybe nobody. But that's the whole point, IMO. Jones was appointed out of desperation when previous English appointees proved disastrous. Now, we just hope he improves. We have the best FH in the world, other Saracens players in semi-rest mode and therefore absolutely no excuses - apparently!

[Which Tyler]

2018 was pretty rough and he took a lot of shit for it. But he turned things around and almost took England to the title. It’s still really gutting that the final went the way it did.

The thing that everyone forgets about 2018 is that he explicitly told us that he was going to do a thing, and that there would be inevitable short-term downsides to doing that thing.

He then did that thing, with predictable short-term downsides, and everyone lost their shit in abject confusion as to what was going on.

For those who've forgotten, he said he'd overtrain the players, said he wanted them to play whilst knackered, play every match as if it's a high pressure, high stakes matches and they've already busted their lungs a couple of days previously

[Raggs]

2018 was pretty rough and he took a lot of shit for it. But he turned things around and almost took England to the title. It’s still really gutting that the final went the way it did.

The thing that everyone forgets about 2018 is that he explicitly told us that he was going to do a thing, and that there would be inevitable short-term downsides to doing that thing.

He then did that thing, with predictable short-term downsides, and everyone lost their shit in abject confusion as to what was going on.

For those who've forgotten, he said he'd overtrain the players, said he wanted them to play whilst knackered, play every match as if it's a high pressure, high stakes matches and they've already busted their lungs a couple of days previously

I was a believer back then (or at least, someone who suspected).





EDIT - Funny thing is, people will stil hold that against Eddie, saying that as he didn't win the world cup, it wasn't worth it.

[Cameo]

Assuming that is all correct, surely people are still entitled to question whether they want a coach whose single minded focus is the World Cup (especially if he then doesn't win it). Personally, I think there is a lot more to international rugby.

[Oakboy]

I suppose, depending on one's viewpoint, it was a failure, a wonderful bit of moden thinking or eccentricity.

Or, he's always talked bollix.

[Raggs]

Assuming that is all correct, surely people are still entitled to question whether they want a coach whose single minded focus is the World Cup (especially if he then doesn't win it). Personally, I think there is a lot more to international rugby.

It wasn't his sole focus though, that was after 2 years and a record breaking run. Hardly seems unreasonable to switch to a rwc focus at that point. And yes, after 2015, we absolutely did need to focus on the world cup.

[Danno]

Assuming that is all correct, surely people are still entitled to question whether they want a coach whose single minded focus is the World Cup (especially if he then doesn't win it). Personally, I think there is a lot more to international rugby.

An away series win in Aus, a Grand Slam, another 6N title, a WC final. As rap sheets go you have you go some way back to find better. And that guy's a constant source of infuriation these days

[jngf]

Assuming that is all correct, surely people are still entitled to question whether they want a coach whose single minded focus is the World Cup (especially if he then doesn't win it). Personally, I think there is a lot more to international rugby.

An away series win in Aus, a Grand Slam, another 6N title, a WC final. As rap sheets go you have you go some way back to find better. And that guy's a constant source of infuriation these days

I anticipate “Trump“ Jones getting a lot more infuriating still until the music stops!

[Danno]

I meant SCW, but a valid point nonetheless.

[Digby]

My gripe with Eddie isn't results, based on English rugby history and how strong sides like Ireland and Wales have been and France are now you'd be smoking something to think you could do much better. It's the style of play, mainly the attack and the skills/tactics that go into that. And there's plenty of wriggle room with my areas of concern for Eddie to simply point at his results

[Scrumhead]

Assuming that is all correct, surely people are still entitled to question whether they want a coach whose single minded focus is the World Cup (especially if he then doesn't win it). Personally, I think there is a lot more to international rugby.

An away series win in Aus, a Grand Slam, another 6N title, a WC final. As rap sheets go you have you go some way back to find better. And that guy's a constant source of infuriation these days

I anticipate “Trump“ Jones getting a lot more infuriating still until the music stops!

How can you seriously compare Eddie to Trump? Your opinions on rugby are always pretty bizarre, but this is a new low.