Ita v. Eng - Match Thread

[Oakboy]

What an odd day. We won the game and the 6 nations but we all seem irritated with the performance.

We allowed ourselves to get dragged into this niggly arm wrestle of a game in the first half. Fair enough we were going in with no warm up.

The irritation is because we didn't do anything. We ran one move and scored off it and proceeded to kick every other bit of possession we had. I think we'd all be a lot happier if we'd been stop-start because we were trying things and they didn't come off, rather than being stop-start because we were resolutely avoiding trying anything.

Puja

Agreed. Yes, Jones needed the win but to pick Slade/Joseph and then employ those tactics against the weakest team in the 6N defies belief. IF, up-and-unders were considered a useful tactic why the hell would you continually kick long with no gain and never have an effective chase organised? Why not play Coka in that case?

I think we need to face up to the fact that tactically/strategically Jones is past it.

That was a horrendous spectacle and a below-par win. Yes, we won the 6N on PD. Hooray.

[Digby]

I think we need to face up to the fact that tactically/strategically Jones is past it.

For me whilst I don't happen to like the tactics, which again for me stem from Jones thinking the skills in English rugby are just shite having watched them up close, I'd still conclude Jones is absolutely on it when it comes to thinking about the game and leading an international squad. I think he's a class act

[Mr Mwenda]

No minute by minute review, then?

[16th man]

No minute by minute review, then?

Much as I enjoy them, I wouldn't want anyone to subject themselves to watching that back again.

[jngf]

Itoje was outstanding; interesting that he played left lock and jumped in the middle a lot. He seemed to have an even freer role than normal, with Hill doing a lot of tight work.

Farrell was obviously executing a pretty ugly tactical plan, but he didn’t even do that well, and how you could waste that back line having picked it beggars belief.

Underhill did the square root of nothing- no carries!

Depressing fare even allowing for ring rust.

I do think Underhill’s defending is world class (arguably best defensive forward in test rugby and he can win turnovers - however you’re right he does need to add much more of an attacking element to his game whether that’s carrying or as a linkman - as this is the thing an alternative style 7 option like Earl or Sam Simmonds would bring to the party in spades. If fetching is the paramount openside skill then that would appear to make a strong case for Willis at 7? Another option is to switch Underhill to 6 and use a linkman and/or carrier at 7 but then there is the question of where to fit in a lineout jumping backrow which I think is needed too.Whilst Curry, Underhill and Billy can all to wonderful things individually I’m increasingly seeing limitations in fielding them as a unit, lack of collective pace, linking and lineout jumping being key deficiencies. I’d be tempted to field 6 Willis 7 Earl 8 Dombrandt against Georgia just to see what an alternative (and imo better balanced combo )might do.

[Mellsblue]

No minute by minute review, then?

Much as I enjoy them, I wouldn't want anyone to subject themselves to watching that back again.

Min 1: England kick the ball away
Min 2: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 3: England kick the ball away
Min 4: England kick the ball away
Min 5: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 6: England kick the ball away
Min 7: England kick the ball away
Min 8: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 9: England kick the ball away
Min 10: England kick the ball away
Min 11: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 12: England kick the ball away
Min 13: England kick the ball away
Min 14: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 15: England kick the ball away
Min 16: England kick the ball away
Min 17: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 18: England kick the ball away
Min 19: England kick the ball away
Min 20: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 21: England kick the ball away
Min 22: England kick the ball away
Min 23: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 24: England kick the ball away
Min 25: England kick the ball away
Min 26: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 27: England kick the ball away
Min 28: England kick the ball away
Min 29: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 30: England kick the ball away
Min 31: England kick the ball away
Min 32: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 33: England kick the ball away
Min 34: England kick the ball away
Min 35: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 36: England kick the ball away
Min 37: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 38: England kick the ball away
Min 39: England kick the ball away
Min 40: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup

Min 41: England kick the ball away
Min 42: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 43: England kick the ball away
Min 44: England kick the ball away
Min 45: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 46: England kick the ball away
Min 47: England kick the ball away
Min 48: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 49: England kick the ball away
Min 50: England kick the ball away
Min 51: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 52: England kick the ball away
Min 53: England kick the ball away
Min 54: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 55: England kick the ball away
Min 56: England kick the ball away
Min 57: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 58: Itoje’s lawyer files a lawsuit against the IFR for breach of copyright
Min 59: England kick the ball away
Min 60: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 61: England kick the ball away
Min 62: Watson wonders we he’s even bothering and asks to be replaced
Min 63: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 64: England kick the ball away
Min 65: England kick the ball away
Min 66: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 67: England kick the ball away
Min 68: England kick the ball away
Min 69: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 70: England kick the ball away
Min 71: England kick the ball away
Min 72: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 73: England kick the ball away
Min 74: England kick the ball away
Min 75: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 76: England kick the ball away
Min 77: Italy react to a turnover as if they’ve won the Intergalactic Super Cup
Min 78: England kick the ball away
Min 79: England kick the ball away
Min 80: Italy react like they’ve won the wooden spoon....again.

[Puja]

As it appears I've been gazumped by Mells, I shan't bother! Although you missed a few key events.

Min 72: After even Dan Robson has been brought onto the pitch and still no sign of Eddie giving him the nod, Tom Dunn starts ostentatiously warming up in front of the coaches.
Min 75: Tom Dunn has resorted to doing cartwheels. Not a single coach is looking at him.
Min 76: Through some communication error, the notification goes out to bring Jamie George off and Dunn on.
Min 77: Syche! Turns out it was just an epic Eddie troll and George isn't going off. Tom Dunn breaks down and weeps.
Min 79.5: The fourth official takes pity and calls the game to a complete halt until George is taken from the pitch, visibly confused as to why he's not playing the 80 as was discussed before the match began.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Do they get their match fees if they don’t get off the bench?

[Oakboy]

I think we need to face up to the fact that tactically/strategically Jones is past it.

For me whilst I don't happen to like the tactics, which again for me stem from Jones thinking the skills in English rugby are just shite having watched them up close, I'd still conclude Jones is absolutely on it when it comes to thinking about the game and leading an international squad. I think he's a class act

Diggers, did you forget the smileys? I assume you were joking.

[Raggs]

Think saying Robson ran into contact and got himself isolated is rather avoiding the fact that he was rescuing shit ball when ending up in that situation ( at least in my memory).

[Digby]

I think we need to face up to the fact that tactically/strategically Jones is past it.

For me whilst I don't happen to like the tactics, which again for me stem from Jones thinking the skills in English rugby are just shite having watched them up close, I'd still conclude Jones is absolutely on it when it comes to thinking about the game and leading an international squad. I think he's a class act

Diggers, did you forget the smileys? I assume you were joking.

I doubt you'll find any examples of me using smileys, they're for the feeble minded who should be lined up against a wall and shot for the betterment of mankind. Beyond that no, I wasn't joking, he's an outstanding coach even if I don't like the tactics.

[FKAS]

Think saying Robson ran into contact and got himself isolated is rather avoiding the fact that he was rescuing shit ball when ending up in that situation ( at least in my memory).

He was unlucky with that but this is Eddie and he'll want to know why Robson didn't kick it. Trying to dance through half the Italian team was brave and one for the romantics but holding the ball and just treading water until the forwards get there might have been the more pragmatic choice. Having spent 70 minutes on the bench he probably wanted to make an impact.

[Spiffy]

Just read an article in the Guardian by a journalist called Andy Bull who describes Youngs as England's "sage elder statesman" and records that he showed "poise and purpose".

In a different article in the same paper Youngs was awarded 9 points in player ratings.

Youngs has 100 caps now and Eddie Jones is suggesting he keeps going until he notches up 150.

[Banquo]

Farrell also got an 8 in the ST. Itoje got a 7 and apparently wasn’t at his best. Wtf

[Banquo]

Itoje was outstanding; interesting that he played left lock and jumped in the middle a lot. He seemed to have an even freer role than normal, with Hill doing a lot of tight work.

Farrell was obviously executing a pretty ugly tactical plan, but he didn’t even do that well, and how you could waste that back line having picked it beggars belief.

Underhill did the square root of nothing- no carries!

Depressing fare even allowing for ring rust.

I do think Underhill’s defending is world class (arguably best defensive forward in test rugby and he can win turnovers - however you’re right he does need to add much more of an attacking element to his game whether that’s carrying or as a linkman - as this is the thing an alternative style 7 option like Earl or Sam Simmonds would bring to the party in spades. If fetching is the paramount openside skill then that would appear to make a strong case for Willis at 7? Another option is to switch Underhill to 6 and use a linkman and/or carrier at 7 but then there is the question of where to fit in a lineout jumping backrow which I think is needed too.Whilst Curry, Underhill and Billy can all to wonderful things individually I’m increasingly seeing limitations in fielding them as a unit, lack of collective pace, linking and lineout jumping being key deficiencies. I’d be tempted to field 6 Willis 7 Earl 8 Dombrandt against Georgia just to see what an alternative (and imo better balanced combo )might do.

His defending was far from world class yesterday. He puts in some big hits, it’s true.

[Digby]

I have to rather confess I'm still not sold on Underhill. He's better than I thought he was, far better, and yet he still looks the easiest of our loose forwards to drop. Against which it's much easier to be involved as the 7 if your side kicks the ball less.

[Oakboy]

I still can't make my mind up about that back row performance.

In the first few minutes I thought Billy V looked slimmer, quicker and meaner. Then, a few carries straight into traffic apart, he drifted out of the game. His restart catching was good.

Underhill was just a headless chicken - out of form and out of touch.

Curry was feisty and in the middle of everything. The try was good but he seemed to lack composure for most of the game. Being that wound up detracts from his effectiveness, IMO. The HT team talk seemed to misdirect his efforts perhaps?

Maybe, the overall pack unit performance owed a hell of a lot to the starting front five.

[Banquo]

I have to rather confess I'm still not sold on Underhill. He's better than I thought he was, far better, and yet he still looks the easiest of our loose forwards to drop. Against which it's much easier to be involved as the 7 if your side kicks the ball less.

Zero carries is a good effort though, and missing two of seven tackles isn’t a good look when one was very garish off 1st phase. Fair point on sheer volume of kicking.
I have no problem with Underhill generally, but he seems the most one dimensional of the flankers we have.

[Spiffy]

Itoje was outstanding; interesting that he played left lock and jumped in the middle a lot. He seemed to have an even freer role than normal, with Hill doing a lot of tight work.

Farrell was obviously executing a pretty ugly tactical plan, but he didn’t even do that well, and how you could waste that back line having picked it beggars belief.

Underhill did the square root of nothing- no carries!

Depressing fare even allowing for ring rust.

I do think Underhill’s defending is world class (arguably best defensive forward in test rugby and he can win turnovers - however you’re right he does need to add much more of an attacking element to his game whether that’s carrying or as a linkman - as this is the thing an alternative style 7 option like Earl or Sam Simmonds would bring to the party in spades. If fetching is the paramount openside skill then that would appear to make a strong case for Willis at 7? Another option is to switch Underhill to 6 and use a linkman and/or carrier at 7 but then there is the question of where to fit in a lineout jumping backrow which I think is needed too.Whilst Curry, Underhill and Billy can all to wonderful things individually I’m increasingly seeing limitations in fielding them as a unit, lack of collective pace, linking and lineout jumping being key deficiencies. I’d be tempted to field 6 Willis 7 Earl 8 Dombrandt against Georgia just to see what an alternative (and imo better balanced combo )might do.

His defending was far from world class yesterday. He puts in some big hits, it’s true.

Underhill is a bit of a one-trick pony. His forte is powerful, destructive tackling. He is very good at it, and has played some great games for England in that role. When the one trick is not working as well as usual he does not have a lot to fall back on. Top international flankers tend to have a more fluid, multiskilled game, and can tackle, jackal, link, carry, jump in the lineout etc.

[Oakboy]

I do think Underhill’s defending is world class (arguably best defensive forward in test rugby and he can win turnovers - however you’re right he does need to add much more of an attacking element to his game whether that’s carrying or as a linkman - as this is the thing an alternative style 7 option like Earl or Sam Simmonds would bring to the party in spades. If fetching is the paramount openside skill then that would appear to make a strong case for Willis at 7? Another option is to switch Underhill to 6 and use a linkman and/or carrier at 7 but then there is the question of where to fit in a lineout jumping backrow which I think is needed too.Whilst Curry, Underhill and Billy can all to wonderful things individually I’m increasingly seeing limitations in fielding them as a unit, lack of collective pace, linking and lineout jumping being key deficiencies. I’d be tempted to field 6 Willis 7 Earl 8 Dombrandt against Georgia just to see what an alternative (and imo better balanced combo )might do.

His defending was far from world class yesterday. He puts in some big hits, it’s true.

Underhill is a bit of a one-trick pony. His forte is powerful, destructive tackling. He is very good at it, and has played some great games for England in that role. When the one trick is not working as well as usual he does not have a lot to fall back on. Top international flankers tend to have a more fluid, multiskilled game, and can tackle, jackal, link, carry, jump in the lineout etc.

You've just replaced him with Willis!

[Stom]

I still can't make my mind up about that back row performance.

In the first few minutes I thought Billy V looked slimmer, quicker and meaner. Then, a few carries straight into traffic apart, he drifted out of the game. His restart catching was good.

Underhill was just a headless chicken - out of form and out of touch.

Curry was feisty and in the middle of everything. The try was good but he seemed to lack composure for most of the game. Being that wound up detracts from his effectiveness, IMO. The HT team talk seemed to misdirect his efforts perhaps?

Maybe, the overall pack unit performance owed a hell of a lot to the starting front five.

The locks were good, too. The backrow didn't have much to work with.

It's hard to judge individual performances from that match, the tactics were so appallingly bad...

[Peej]

As it appears I've been gazumped by Mells, I shan't bother! Although you missed a few key events.

Min 72: / even Dan Robson has been brought onto the pitch and still no sign of Eddie giving him the nod, Tom Dunn starts ostentatiously warming up in front of the coaches.
Min 75: Tom Dunn has resorted to doing cartwheels. Not a single coach is looking at him.
Min 76: Through some communication error, the notification goes out to bring Jamie George off and Dunn on.
Min 77: Syche! Turns out it was just an epic Eddie troll and George isn't going off. Tom Dunn breaks down and weeps.
Min 79.5: The fourth official takes pity and calls the game to a complete halt until George is taken from the pitch, visibly confused as to why he's not playing the 80 as was discussed before the match began.

Puja

Not too proud to admit I've done this in similar situations to try and get noticed and put on

[Puja]

As it appears I've been gazumped by Mells, I shan't bother! Although you missed a few key events.

Min 72: / even Dan Robson has been brought onto the pitch and still no sign of Eddie giving him the nod, Tom Dunn starts ostentatiously warming up in front of the coaches.
Min 75: Tom Dunn has resorted to doing cartwheels. Not a single coach is looking at him.
Min 76: Through some communication error, the notification goes out to bring Jamie George off and Dunn on.
Min 77: Syche! Turns out it was just an epic Eddie troll and George isn't going off. Tom Dunn breaks down and weeps.
Min 79.5: The fourth official takes pity and calls the game to a complete halt until George is taken from the pitch, visibly confused as to why he's not playing the 80 as was discussed before the match began.

Puja

Not too proud to admit I've done this in similar situations to try and get noticed and put on

Oh good, I'm glad it isn't just me!

Puja

[Digby]

I played a match as a sub once and was very keen not to go on as I'd damaged rib cartilage about a week earlier in an earlier game. Five minutes into the match and the idiot in my place went down with a broken shin and claimed he couldn't play on so I tried to play the remainder and was shockingly bad, not helped by being clattered by my own loosehead prop in the ribs minutes after coming on myself as he tried to help clearout.

After the match I was so slow getting undressed, showered and changed the team bus left without me and I had to walk home (this was back before I had a mobile) with my kit barely being able to breathe without it hurting badly. That's I think my one experience of being a sub, and it wasn't a happy one, well other than those games I was subbed off for refusing to enact stupid coaching strategies

[Scrumhead]

His defending was far from world class yesterday. He puts in some big hits, it’s true.

Underhill is a bit of a one-trick pony. His forte is powerful, destructive tackling. He is very good at it, and has played some great games for England in that role. When the one trick is not working as well as usual he does not have a lot to fall back on. Top international flankers tend to have a more fluid, multiskilled game, and can tackle, jackal, link, carry, jump in the lineout etc.

You've just replaced him with Willis!

This is one of the rare occasions I agree with you ... Willis might not offer quite as destructive tackling as Underhill, but offers a lot more in other areas. He’s a better jackal and a much better carrier without compromising massively on the tackling and physicality.