Ita v. Eng - Match Thread

[Puja]

I have been the guy left on the bench for nearly all of the game and it sucks sweaty donkey balls. I was ready to play my regular game for the 3rds when I got a message on Friday saying that the 2nds need you. It meant going from a home game to away and from starting to being on the bench, but I'm a reliable club man so I shrugged and said okay.

Stood on the sideline for 79 minutes in the pissing rain before getting a literal 1 minute on the pitch where I neither touched the ball nor made a tackle. If it'd been a close game, then I would've understood, but we lost badly and so there was absolutely nothing to be lost by giving me a proper appearance. Didn't even get an apology from the manager either - barely acknowledged my existence, let alone the fact that I'd given up my Saturday for him to sh*t on me.

To add insult to injury, the 3rds won 87-0 in a free-flowing game played in brilliant sunshine. Shockingly enough, the next time the 2nds called, I found an excuse.

So yes, I empathise with Dunn *a* *lot*.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Underhill is a bit of a one-trick pony. His forte is powerful, destructive tackling. He is very good at it, and has played some great games for England in that role. When the one trick is not working as well as usual he does not have a lot to fall back on. Top international flankers tend to have a more fluid, multiskilled game, and can tackle, jackal, link, carry, jump in the lineout etc.

You've just replaced him with Willis!

This is one of the rare occasions I agree with you ... Willis might not offer quite as destructive tackling as Underhill, but offers a lot more in other areas. He’s a better jackal and a much better carrier without compromising massively on the tackling and physicality.

But can he secure first phase bla bla bla

[WaspInWales]

I have been the guy left on the bench for nearly all of the game and it sucks sweaty donkey balls. I was ready to play my regular game for the 3rds when I got a message on Friday saying that the 2nds need you. It meant going from a home game to away and from starting to being on the bench, but I'm a reliable club man so I shrugged and said okay.

Stood on the sideline for 79 minutes in the pissing rain before getting a literal 1 minute on the pitch where I neither touched the ball nor made a tackle. If it'd been a close game, then I would've understood, but we lost badly and so there was absolutely nothing to be lost by giving me a proper appearance. Didn't even get an apology from the manager either - barely acknowledged my existence, let alone the fact that I'd given up my Saturday for him to sh*t on me.

To add insult to injury, the 3rds won 87-0 in a free-flowing game played in brilliant sunshine. Shockingly enough, the next time the 2nds called, I found an excuse.

So yes, I empathise with Dunn *a* *lot*.

Puja

Well, 87-0 may well be free-flowing for one of the sides involved

[Spiffy]

I have been the guy left on the bench for nearly all of the game and it sucks sweaty donkey balls. I was ready to play my regular game for the 3rds when I got a message on Friday saying that the 2nds need you. It meant going from a home game to away and from starting to being on the bench, but I'm a reliable club man so I shrugged and said okay.

Stood on the sideline for 79 minutes in the pissing rain before getting a literal 1 minute on the pitch where I neither touched the ball nor made a tackle. If it'd been a close game, then I would've understood, but we lost badly and so there was absolutely nothing to be lost by giving me a proper appearance. Didn't even get an apology from the manager either - barely acknowledged my existence, let alone the fact that I'd given up my Saturday for him to sh*t on me.

To add insult to injury, the 3rds won 87-0 in a free-flowing game played in brilliant sunshine. Shockingly enough, the next time the 2nds called, I found an excuse.

So yes, I empathise with Dunn *a* *lot*.

Puja

Well, 87-0 may well be free-flowing for one of the sides involved

The losers were free-flowing backwards.

[Mr Mwenda]

Been there as well. It is bullshit being done. Particularly from teams higher up the club who seem to think everyone is there to fulfil their international fantasies.

However, when its ones job it's a bit different. Presumably its part of the deal. Still not nice for Dunn et al.

[Scrumhead]

I have been the guy left on the bench for nearly all of the game and it sucks sweaty donkey balls. I was ready to play my regular game for the 3rds when I got a message on Friday saying that the 2nds need you. It meant going from a home game to away and from starting to being on the bench, but I'm a reliable club man so I shrugged and said okay.

Stood on the sideline for 79 minutes in the pissing rain before getting a literal 1 minute on the pitch where I neither touched the ball nor made a tackle. If it'd been a close game, then I would've understood, but we lost badly and so there was absolutely nothing to be lost by giving me a proper appearance. Didn't even get an apology from the manager either - barely acknowledged my existence, let alone the fact that I'd given up my Saturday for him to sh*t on me.

To add insult to injury, the 3rds won 87-0 in a free-flowing game played in brilliant sunshine. Shockingly enough, the next time the 2nds called, I found an excuse.

So yes, I empathise with Dunn *a* *lot*.

Puja

Yep. This is a familiar one for me too.

My other particular favourite over the years is being dropped for guys who never train but are somehow allowed to drop straight in to the side whenever they fancy a run-out.

[fivepointer]

Been on the bench and not used. Been on the bench and told i would only come on in an emergency. Been on the bench for 70+ minutes of a game before coming on at the death. Been on the bench and deliberately excluded from the pre match team get together. It all sucks.
Now Dunn is a big boy playing international rugby. This isnt a junior game on a Sunday morning, or a run out with the local 3rd team. But being stuck on the bench until its almost over in a game we are comfortably winning and where the starting hooker isnt a MotM contender sucks too.
Jones has form on this.
Its a habit I really detest.

[twitchy]

[Epaminondas Pules]

Been on the bench, but had to give my shirt to a starter who had forgotten his shirt, then got screamed at by the coach for not being ready to go on when needed because I didn't have a shirt.

[jngf]

I have been the guy left on the bench for nearly all of the game and it sucks sweaty donkey balls. I was ready to play my regular game for the 3rds when I got a message on Friday saying that the 2nds need you. It meant going from a home game to away and from starting to being on the bench, but I'm a reliable club man so I shrugged and said okay.

Stood on the sideline for 79 minutes in the pissing rain before getting a literal 1 minute on the pitch where I neither touched the ball nor made a tackle. If it'd been a close game, then I would've understood, but we lost badly and so there was absolutely nothing to be lost by giving me a proper appearance. Didn't even get an apology from the manager either - barely acknowledged my existence, let alone the fact that I'd given up my Saturday for him to sh*t on me.

To add insult to injury, the 3rds won 87-0 in a free-flowing game played in brilliant sunshine. Shockingly enough, the next time the 2nds called, I found an excuse.

So yes, I empathise with Dunn *a* *lot*.

Puja

Yep. This is a familiar one for me too.

My other particular favourite over the years is being dropped for guys who never train but are somehow allowed to drop straight in to the side whenever they fancy a run-out.

Scrumhead, I know just where you’re coming from on this (Oh my - can we be in serious danger of actually being in agreement on something?)
Another one from my very short local club tenure was - we’ve no places going on Saturday unless you can prop or hook (neither of which could I do by that time when I’d slimmed down)

[Puja]

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Inside Line: Why did England kick so much against Italy and where do they go from here?

England kicked 44 times in Rome. Those tactics helped them to a functional win and the Six Nations title, but now they must push on

Only twice across 55 Tests since the arrival of Eddie Jones, in two sharply contrasting games, have England kicked more often than they did against Italy at the Stadio Olimpico.

On both of those occasions, they put boot to ball 47 times. Without looking, can you identify the matches in question?

One is the sodden, 13-6 win in Scotland nine months ago. Perhaps more surprisingly, the other is the 44-8 thrashing of France a year previously.

England’s tally of kicks on Saturday, according to Opta, was 44 as they prevailed 34-5 with a performance that proved sufficient to take the Six Nations title after a fabulous win for France over Ireland.

It is important not to use that outcome to validate tactics retrospectively. England were undoubtedly clunky, for significant periods. Remarkably, they reached a second ruck just seven times in 63 different instances of possession.

But there was plenty of logic behind their approach. All week, Eddie Jones’ charges spoke about the importance of patience and their first try was a prime example of striking in a kicking exchange.

It begins as Owen Farrell gathers a 22 drop-out and hoists a high ball. Jonny May chases and is lucky not to concede a penalty for an early tackle on Matteo Minozzi.

Then again, Italy scrum-half Marcello Violi and centre Carlo Canna are also fortunate not to be whistled for blocking May:

Anyway, Violi clears two phases later. Farrell fields and feeds George Furbank, who takes on Italy’s kick-chase. Seconds later, Farrell’s breaks and sets up Ben Youngs:

Now, including restarts, 22 drop-outs, free-kicks and penalties that missed touch, England gathered 30 kicks from Italy in the field of play. Determined not to dally in their own half – as we will explore later – they returned 18 of them immediately without setting up a ruck.

Here, Furbank’s foray does lead to a breakdown. But then Farrell spots an opening. He sees a hole in Italy’s ‘transition zone’ – between their forwards close to the fringes and the backs.

Violi, the initial kicker, sprints up from the back-field to fill in between outside centre Luca Morisi and lock Niccolo Cannone. Farrell spots that. He slides behind the Vunipola brothers…

…and then receives a pull-back from Mako Vunipola behind the decoy line of Billy and attacking the hole between Violi and Cannone from second-receiver.

After this opportunistic, slick start, England appeared to grow more conservative.

Context, rust and personnel

In the absence of Elliot Daly, George Ford and Manu Tuilagi, three mainstays of his backline, Jones opted to form a midfield of Farrell, Henry Slade and Jonathan Joseph.

It felt like a decision to prioritise experience, kicking prowess and defensive stability. As a result, attacking chemistry and first-phase penetration seemed to suffer. From this scrum, for example, Youngs receives a pass from Billy Vunipola.

Without any abrasive power-runner such as Joe Cokanasiga or Ollie Lawrence, who was yet to come on from the bench, May, Slade and Joseph run hard lines:

This does not feel like the best use of any of these players. Sure enough, when May receives a short ball, he is stopped. Sam Underhill helps to recycle with Slade.

Joseph, a peripheral figure all afternoon, back-tracks as Billy Vunipola and Tom Curry arc all the way round to pose a threat on the following phase:

From lineouts, Slade became the go-to hole-puncher – an unfamiliar role for the Exeter man. Billy Vunipola and Underhill were deployed off his shoulder, but Italy regularly cut off those options and stifled go-forward.

Here, Canna reads Farrell’s pull-back and presses past Vunipola to tackle Slade:

Given the Premiership finale and the cancellation of their fixture against the Barbarians compromised their preparation somewhat, England evidently aimed for a watertight performance that controlled territory and strangled the Azzurri while doing enough to secure a try bonus point.

With observers keen for a try-fest befitting of Super Saturday’s traditions, this philosophy was probably underwhelming even if it was sensible.

The darting carry that Lawrence made with his first touch suggested that the Worcester youngster will be able to add dynamism soon enough:

Jones knows that England’s strengths are set-piece accuracy and disruptive defence, so he founded his bid for the title on those traits.

Weaponising defence

Out in Japan at Rugby World Cup 2019, the two teams that reached the final had been superb without the ball – kicking a great deal and forcing mistakes with aggressive defence.

In the decider, the Springboks stayed true to that strategy. England wavered. Remember Farrell’s fizzing pass across his dead-ball area?

From 13 of their kicks at the weekend, England won back possession directly or thanks to a turnover within two phases. Ironically, one such steal lead to Italy’s only try.

Youngs strikes a box-kick that is pursued by Anthony Watson…

…who cuts down Italy wing Mattia Bellini. Maro Itoje pounces to force a jackal turnover…

…but then a wobbly pass from Watson and Kyle Sinckler’s spill lets in Italy:

This was England’s first Test since March 7, so rustiness was inevitable. Fluent phase-play has so many moving parts. It takes time to build up again and, as Jake Polledri’s finish demonstrates, errors from frantic attack can prove self-destructive.

Kicking sweeps your team – including defensive spoilers such as Curry, Itoje and Underhill if you have them – up-field and mitigates that risk.

Franco Smith, the head coach of Italy, spent time in the South Africa set-up of Rassie Erasmus. You would expect his team to chase kicks and pressurise the breakdown.

Sure enough, despite the intention not to allow Italy into the game in that way, England conceded three turnovers from kick-returns. This is one of them, which ends an exchange of clearances:

You can see May weigh up a clearance before pinning his ears back. Cannone’s tackle is excellent and referee Pascal Gauzere rewards Giosue Zilocchi. The tighthead prop does not appear to be supporting his bodyweight, but that only serves to offer another reason why England were not keen to dwell inside their own territory.
Good decisions, fine margins

Under Jones, England have constantly used kicking as a means of moving the ball to space in attack. The way Italy defended, with Morisi and their wings pressing high, presented opportunities to use those skills.

Here, the hosts are in strife after a backline move towards the far touchline. England bounce towards the near side and Billy Vunipola finds Farrell behind his brother Mako.

Morisi and right wing Edoardo Padovani do very well. They shoot up to cut off Farrell’s passing options:

Farrell responds with a delicate, left-footed grubber. He finds space, but May cannot gather:

The decision to kick is a sound one, but England are unfortunate. Later in the first half, May returns a kick. Watch Farrell and Joseph, close to the far touchline:

England recycle and, with Bellini creeping in-field, Farrell looks to find Joseph with a kick-pass.

However, with England’s captain under pressure from Canna and Violi, its trajectory (white arrow) is too loopy. Joseph must wait for the ball to arrive and knocks on. Had the kick been flatter (black arrow), England would have outflanked Italy:

Again, the thought process is difficult to criticise. Finally, to a sequence in the second half. May returns another Italy clearance…

…and Itoje picks and goes around the fringe to inject momentum:

On the next phase, Farrell plays a pull-back behind Slade to Watson. Bellini shoots up, though, and cuts off Joseph:

Watson and Joseph, both of whom were quiet because of the dearth of opportunities with ball in hand, switched positions on the edge of England’s backline. Here, the former jinks back in-field:

Three rucks have elapsed at this stage, making it the joint-sixth longest period of England possession all game. Even with Italy down to 14, Farrell has seen enough. He drops back into the pocket…

…and goes to the air:

The decision pays off. Joseph, Jonny Hill and Sinckler combine to win back possession. Itoje spins a neat pass to Youngs and Farrell arrives on the far side. Another delicate grubber is intended for May but Paolo Garbisi covers well:

In the final 10 minutes, Farrell’s clever stab allowed Ben Earl to collect and feed Slade for England’s fifth and final try:

Understandably rusty in his third outing since lockdown, Farrell found his range. His team completed the job, eventually recording a business-like win that made it 27 consecutive defeats for Italy in the Six Nations.

England have a foot-hold from which to launch into the rest of the autumn. If their aim is really to “put smiles on faces”, they will be keen for their attack to be sharper and more cohesive.

That starts with first-phase impetus and should happen naturally, with a game under their belts and beleaguered Georgia visiting Twickenham next. A bit more ambition, both in their midfield selection and with ball in hand, might help as well.

[Danno]

The performance being called 'business-like' makes me think of Woolworths.

[twitchy]

The performance being called 'business-like' makes me think of Woolworths.

Woolworths coming back is the news nobody wanted.

[16th man]

The performance being called 'business-like' makes me think of Woolworths.

Woolworths coming back is the fake news nobody wanted.

FTFY

[Which Tyler]

Farage coming back is the news nobody wanted.

FTFY II

[ExAviator]

All this talk of subs on the bench took me back to the good old days of rugby. I’m 84 and no subs benches were in existence for my twenty-one years of rugby. The norm was not even to take an extra person in our coach to away matches.

In the mid-fifties we were playing away against Harlequins.

In the then usual warm up, two minutes of throwing the ball to each other (some still with a cigarette in their hand), our scrum half unbelievably broke a bone in his hand and was taken to hospital. Nobody else in the team would admit to ever have played in that position and, as a flanker, I was ‘volunteered’. Of course, we had to play with only fourteen players and Quins were fielding a strong team including at least two two current internationals, Vic Roberts at flank and Nick Labuschagne at hooker.

I remember this game well! We did manage to restrict Quins to about 35 points, no thanks to me as it was a personal nightmare - and I was never invited to play scrum half again!

[16th man]

The kicking in the Scotland game was an absolute necessity, given the conditions, and executed so wretchedly it became darkly comic, as our box kickers failed to learn that putting it down the tram lines wasn't a very good idea.

The kicking in the game against the French was a set strategy, varied between bombing the back 3 and grabbers for chasing, and was executed very well.

Saturday's kicking was a poor choice dismally executed.

[Banquo]

I still can’t get over the almost universal praise for Farrell in the media. Even the two easyish conversion misses which could have made a difference have gone unremarked.
I’m still baffled by the back line selection for that game plan.

[Puja]

I still can’t get over the almost universal praise for Farrell in the media. Even the two easyish conversion misses which could have made a difference have gone unremarked.
I’m still baffled by the back line selection for that game plan.

They made a difference to me - I lost on an accumulator cause I had England to win by >31 points!

Puja

[Spiffy]

I still can’t get over the almost universal praise for Farrell in the media. Even the two easyish conversion misses which could have made a difference have gone unremarked.
I’m still baffled by the back line selection for that game plan.

I think that early in Farrell's career, the media and fans decided that he was the heir apparent to Jonny Wilkinson, and anointed him as the second coming. Some how this has stuck, despite several years of poor/mediocre performances which are simply ignored by rugby observers who can be otherwise quite astute.
It's rather analogous to Trump supporters who identified with him when he first stuck his head up and can still see no wrong.
Poor old Faz is one of the least talented 10s in international rugby at present and not much better at 12.
Yet he is still put up for World XV selections, player of the year etc.

[Banquo]

I still can’t get over the almost universal praise for Farrell in the media. Even the two easyish conversion misses which could have made a difference have gone unremarked.
I’m still baffled by the back line selection for that game plan.

I think that early in Farrell's career, the media and fans decided that he was the heir apparent to Jonny Wilkinson, and anointed him as the second coming. Some how this has stuck, despite several years of poor/mediocre performances which are simply ignored by rugby observers who can be otherwise quite astute.
It's rather analogous to Trump supporters who identified with him when he first stuck his head up and can still see no wrong.
Poor old Faz is one of the least talented 10s in international rugby at present and not much better at 12.
Yet he is still put up for World XV selections, player of the year etc.

Imo he’s worse at 12 bar if he is there, at least Ford is playing at the defence line and not having kick as his first and only thought.

[Oakboy]

It makes you wonder, just in hypothetical conjecture, IF Jones was replaced and his successor decided to dump Farrell (for Simmonds, say) would there be howls of protest? 4 or 5 games on, if we were playing better rugby and winning, would Farrell even get a mention (especially playing in a lower division)?

[Banquo]

It makes you wonder, just in hypothetical conjecture, IF Jones was replaced and his successor decided to dump Farrell (for Simmonds, say) would there be howls of protest? 4 or 5 games on, if we were playing better rugby and winning, would Farrell even get a mention (especially playing in a lower division)?

Unfortunately and in some eyes inexplicably, successive ostensibly wise and successful coaches have always picked Farrell; in fact I think Jones is the only one who has actually dropped him in the last 7 years.

[Puja]

It makes you wonder, just in hypothetical conjecture, IF Jones was replaced and his successor decided to dump Farrell (for Simmonds, say) would there be howls of protest? 4 or 5 games on, if we were playing better rugby and winning, would Farrell even get a mention (especially playing in a lower division)?

Unfortunately and in some eyes inexplicably, successive ostensibly wise and successful coaches have always picked Farrell; in fact I think Jones is the only one who has actually dropped him in the last 7 years.

Burt dropped him. Admittedly, it didn't stick, but he was on the bench for most of 2015, right up until we got a bit panicky at the Welsh midfield being a bit mean and nasty and decided that they best thing was Farrell/[Redacted]/Barritt.

Puja

[Oakboy]

It makes you wonder, just in hypothetical conjecture, IF Jones was replaced and his successor decided to dump Farrell (for Simmonds, say) would there be howls of protest? 4 or 5 games on, if we were playing better rugby and winning, would Farrell even get a mention (especially playing in a lower division)?

Unfortunately and in some eyes inexplicably, successive ostensibly wise and successful coaches have always picked Farrell; in fact I think Jones is the only one who has actually dropped him in the last 7 years.

I was not suggesting that someone else WOULD drop Farrell but wondering if the hype that keeps him on his pedestal would last if he was off the scene. I am beginning to think that Jones/Farrell/Youngs as a constant will always hold our ceiling down just as the overall standard of the playing squad is climbing. It is as if the performance in the SF v NZ was the big problem rather than the sign for the future.

I think our players are now too good to be run on and off the field in a style that perceives that winning ugly is the only future.