Squad for Wales

[Banquo]

Ollie Lawrence out.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... ations-cup

Oh thank gods, a discussion point from this decade!

Bloody shame. I was hoping to see Ford/Faz/Lawrence to really see what he can do. With luck, we'll now see Ford/Farrell/Joseph, as the alternatives are the continual sideways movement of FFS or more of the same with Faz/Slade/Joseph (who'll probably be asked to do crash balls).

Puja

Have to say Ford Faz Lawrence doesn’t appeal to me. Mostly because of Faz.

[Banquo]

Ollie Lawrence out.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... ations-cup

Oh thank gods, a discussion point from this decade!

Bloody shame. I was hoping to see Ford/Faz/Lawrence to really see what he can do. With luck, we'll now see Ford/Farrell/Joseph, as the alternatives are the continual sideways movement of FFS or more of the same with Faz/Slade/Joseph (who'll probably be asked to do crash balls).

Puja

Same, but it wouldn't have happened at all unless Ford started, and I have a feeling he'll still be benched this week, since Fazlet is.... playing a lot

Eddie mostly starts Ford when he is fully fit in fairness. The downside is that Faz then plays 12.

[FKAS]

Ollie Lawrence out.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... ations-cup

Oh thank gods, a discussion point from this decade!

Bloody shame. I was hoping to see Ford/Faz/Lawrence to really see what he can do. With luck, we'll now see Ford/Farrell/Joseph, as the alternatives are the continual sideways movement of FFS or more of the same with Faz/Slade/Joseph (who'll probably be asked to do crash balls).

Puja

Same, but it wouldn't have happened at all unless Ford started, and I have a feeling he'll still be benched this week, since Fazlet is.... playing a lot

Really I thought we'd see Ford back in to aid our kicking game. He's rather good at the up and unders and the old crossfield kick. Prime Eddie tactics. Well shuffle Slade down to 13 and put speedsters on the wings so that we have no penetration and no weapons for Ford to use so he'll be forced to kick it in turns with Farrell and occasionally Slade for variety.

[Digby]

For sure Steff knew the rules, but they were arbitrary rules we implemented that we didn't need to, mostly we've observed the rules sometimes we haven't. And as an aside I still think our players are missing out by not going abroad for some period

I think the fact that all of our players are in the Prem and making the English league a better crucible for the development of future English talent is a pretty good argument that we did need those "arbitrary rules" and they've worked out pretty well. The fact that we haven't had this repetitive conversation since SArmitage stopped being relevant and started assaulting barmaids means that the stonewall decision that no player was good enough to be an exception has worked*.

Whether players would benefit from going abroad is a different conversation. Marchant's sabbatical to NZ, absolutely yes. Playing Pro 14 for a South African team - a solid maybe. Letting the likes of Itoje play 400 attritional games a season for Racing 92 and getting ground into the dirt? Probably less so. And let's face it, a free-for-all would see a far larger number taking the Euro and the yen than those going abroad to improve themselves.

Puja


*I'm confused by the assertion that we haven't observed the rules sometimes. We haven't picked an overseas player since we said we wouldn't, Jonny Wilkinson went to Toulon and people said, "Surely they won't apply it to Wilko" and we did. I mean, a pedant might try to claim Brad Shields, but given he'd signed for Wasps and was imminently arriving, that would be spectacularly pedantic.

This forum doesn't have a like function so I had to quote this. Well said

I understand the line of thought. For myself I'm okay with not picking a talented player providing England are winning or playing well, and they're not necessarily the sam thing, but once we get an England team playing badly and losing they just become ridiculous for making such stance. Granted I have far less concern for the specific clubs in the top flight than many, and anyway I rather like the idea of players broadening their horizons even allowing for that's a mix of the good and the bad

[Mellsblue]

Oh thank gods, a discussion point from this decade!

Bloody shame. I was hoping to see Ford/Faz/Lawrence to really see what he can do. With luck, we'll now see Ford/Farrell/Joseph, as the alternatives are the continual sideways movement of FFS or more of the same with Faz/Slade/Joseph (who'll probably be asked to do crash balls).

Puja

Same, but it wouldn't have happened at all unless Ford started, and I have a feeling he'll still be benched this week, since Fazlet is.... playing a lot

Really I thought we'd see Ford back in to aid our kicking game. He's rather good at the up and unders and the old crossfield kick. Prime Eddie tactics. Well shuffle Slade down to 13 and put speedsters on the wings so that we have no penetration and no weapons for Ford to use so he'll be forced to kick it in turns with Farrell and occasionally Slade for variety.

Should be enough to beat Wales by 50.

[Banquo]

Oh thank gods, a discussion point from this decade!

Bloody shame. I was hoping to see Ford/Faz/Lawrence to really see what he can do. With luck, we'll now see Ford/Farrell/Joseph, as the alternatives are the continual sideways movement of FFS or more of the same with Faz/Slade/Joseph (who'll probably be asked to do crash balls).

Puja

Same, but it wouldn't have happened at all unless Ford started, and I have a feeling he'll still be benched this week, since Fazlet is.... playing a lot

Really I thought we'd see Ford back in to aid our kicking game. He's rather good at the up and unders and the old crossfield kick. Prime Eddie tactics. Well shuffle Slade down to 13 and put speedsters on the wings so that we have no penetration and no weapons for Ford to use so he'll be forced to kick it in turns with Farrell and occasionally Slade for variety.

Perzackly. If Coka were fit and in form he’d be an option to hold or hit up the midfield defence off the blindside, but I understand he looked pretty average at the weekend? Plus it’s not something we have done much of recently for obvious reasons; the experiment with blindside wing as centre might continue, but suspect defences will just drift across in the absence of any threat in the 12 channel. Course could go Ford, Slade, JJ and a bit of sleight of hand with Daly coming off his wing position and Watson at FB. But that’s a lot of changes, a new system, and importantly impossible as the ice man doesn’t feature.

[Oakboy]

Assuming the obvious - that Farrell will play - will Jones bring Watson straight back in and will he start Ford at 10? I'd expect both with Joseph dropping to the bench and Slade moving to 13.

That gives a back line of Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Slade, Watson, Daly.

I'd pick Robson, Ford, May, Slade, Joseph, Daly, Watson.

The only consolation with what I think Jones will do is that both Joseph and Coka could get bench slots, though I'd still expect Jones to pick Malins with Joseph.

[p/d]

Am I missing something.............when did Coka suddenly appear as an option

[Puja]

Am I missing something.............when did Coka suddenly appear as an option

He trained with England last week and he's in the squad currently.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Am I missing something.............when did Coka suddenly appear as an option

I have text Jonny May to apologise for and retract yesterday’s comparison.
Unless your alluding to the fact that bringing in Coka after a year out injured and with little form is an act of hope over expectation.

[p/d]

Am I missing something.............when did Coka suddenly appear as an option

I have text Jonny May to apologise for and retract yesterday’s comparison.

I trust you finished: 'ps. Ashton's try was better'

[p/d]

Am I missing something.............when did Coka suddenly appear as an option

He trained with England last week and he's in the squad currently.

Puja

Ah, I did not know that.

Be nice to see him make the bench

[Oakboy]

Am I missing something.............when did Coka suddenly appear as an option

He trained with England last week and he's in the squad currently.

Puja

Ah, I did not know that.

Be nice to see him make the bench

Going back to the adage of picking who your opponents would like least, he is hell of a bench option.

[Renniks]

The bbc article about Lawrence has the 25 man squad

Backs: Elliot Daly, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Jonathan Joseph, Max Malins, Jonny May, Dan Robson, Henry Slade, Anthony Watson, Ben Youngs.

Forwards: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Tom Curry, Ben Earl, Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Joe Launchbury, Joe Marler, Kyle Sinckler, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola, Mako Vunipola, Jack Willis.


So no big Joe.
All the backs or a 6:2 split on the bench

Willis retained
Marler back in contention
Watson still there

Based on that. The only area I’m going to be frustrated is midfield (I’ve accepted youngs at 9)

[Renniks]

Obviously this will be cut down in 40 minutes so nothing that exciting

[Which Tyler]

I think the fact that all of our players are in the Prem and making the English league a better crucible for the development of future English talent is a pretty good argument that we did need those "arbitrary rules" and they've worked out pretty well. The fact that we haven't had this repetitive conversation since SArmitage stopped being relevant and started assaulting barmaids means that the stonewall decision that no player was good enough to be an exception has worked*.
etc

{REDACTED} didn't need to have been playing in England either. Nor did he need to remain in England

Please show your working.
Remember that he'd played a good 20-odd matches for Bath before his first cap, and went on to earn 0 caps after leaving Bath.

I agree with Puja that the closest thing we've had to an exception being made, was Brad Shields; who had left NZ and signed for Wasps before being capped (albeit he hadn't actually landed - and that this sort of "exception" is decidedly not the point of the rule)

Perzackly. If Coka were fit and in form he’d be an option to hold or hit up the midfield defence off the blindside, but I understand he looked pretty average at the weekend?

And that's generous.
He played about 3 minutes of rugby and 77 minutes of just fiddling around; knocking the ball on and generally not contributing - incredibly rusty, he looked out of love with game, possibly not trusting his body yet.

[Digby]

He was mostly playing outside England in a different sport to earn selection. After some initial appearances he left the country and indeed the sport. And his appearances for England were largely based on playing a different role. Some people are fine with that as a process, I'm just not one of those.

And I had to put up with watching just how bad we were whilst ignoring people like Bendy and Steff. Granted a lot of people are content with our processes and for a number of reasons, I'm just not one of those.

[Peej]

Didn't Francis get picked whilst playing Super Rugby because he was coming back to the Prem? Or have I misremembered that?

[Peej]

The bbc article about Lawrence has the 25 man squad

Backs: Elliot Daly, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Jonathan Joseph, Max Malins, Jonny May, Dan Robson, Henry Slade, Anthony Watson, Ben Youngs.

Forwards: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Tom Curry, Ben Earl, Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Joe Launchbury, Joe Marler, Kyle Sinckler, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola, Mako Vunipola, Jack Willis.


So no big Joe.
All the backs or a 6:2 split on the bench

Willis retained
Marler back in contention
Watson still there

Based on that. The only area I’m going to be frustrated is midfield (I’ve accepted youngs at 9)

Willis will be the travelling reserve, I'm sure. Doubly annoying given that he both won't get minutes (and would be unlikely to get any against France the following week) and that he would be unavailable for Wasps.

Eddie doesn't mess with a winning team unless forced.

[fivepointer]

Real pity Lawrence has to miss out. Marler and probably Willis to miss out on the final 23. Can't see the starting pack changing.

Either Ford or Joseph to the bench i imagine. Malins retained so that at least is good news.

[Peej]

You do wonder why Malins is retained though if Eddie has both Farrell and Ford to cover 10, and Daly and Watson to cover 15.

This is not to say he shouldn't be, I think he should be involved far more. It just seems strange to overload on certain positions to the detriment of others. Lawrence is probably not going to make it, so behind Slade who is the next cab off the rank for 13? We arguably lost a 13 to Wales because of this lack of depth testing.

[Stom]

You do wonder why Malins is retained though if Eddie has both Farrell and Ford to cover 10, and Daly and Watson to cover 15.

This is not to say he shouldn't be, I think he should be involved far more. It just seems strange to overload on certain positions to the detriment of others. Lawrence is probably not going to make it, so behind Slade who is the next cab off the rank for 13? We arguably lost a 13 to Wales because of this lack of depth testing.

He wants a "playmaking" 15, so Malins is a better choice than Watson there, who's hardly played 15 anyway.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It might be a case of Malins or Watson, depending on Watson's fitness, and a 6/2 split.

Obviously one prop drops out.

[twitchy]

I would imagine watson slots back in.

[Epaminondas Pules]

You would think so, which likely means JJ to the bench and if not JJ stays on the wing and Malin's keeps his place on the bench. I've got an inkling for a 6/2 split on this one. There is enough versatility in the backs to cover any injury, or loss of player (barring three injuries).