Le Crunch

[Banquo]

Yes so much for a crunch..

IF you guys don't win by more than 15 points you will be laughed at..

It's not even going to be a second french team...Unfortunately..

You have a plethora of big nasty bastards peppered with some spicy play makers. If you can keep the stupid penalties to a minimum and not get sucked into 60 minutes of kicking, you might just unhinge the stats-driven English sarcophagus and ask some hard questions of coaches that think tennis is an appropriate substitute for rugby.

France don’t need to be sucked into anything. They kick about the same amount of ball as England do. They are exactly the same as all the top international teams at the moment- based around kick & pressure, direct power game and set piece.

A few individuals doing occasional bits of brilliance seems to give people the impression that they just fling the ball about.

Here's a stat.....we kicked 13% of our possession on Saturday.....Wales kicked 14%.

But for us, that's 40 kicks! That's a lot- and whilst kicking is not a bad tactic, kicking poorly is inexcusable. Most of that poor kicking was either Ford with rubbish high balls, too short or too long.....or the obsession with kicking through when in space in their half if there isn't a 4 on 1, its a real curse with the likes of Daly, Faz, Slade all doing it.

[p/d]

We are like Wimbledon FC of the late 80's.

[Timbo]

You have a plethora of big nasty bastards peppered with some spicy play makers. If you can keep the stupid penalties to a minimum and not get sucked into 60 minutes of kicking, you might just unhinge the stats-driven English sarcophagus and ask some hard questions of coaches that think tennis is an appropriate substitute for rugby.

France don’t need to be sucked into anything. They kick about the same amount of ball as England do. They are exactly the same as all the top international teams at the moment- based around kick & pressure, direct power game and set piece.

A few individuals doing occasional bits of brilliance seems to give people the impression that they just fling the ball about.

Here's a stat.....we kicked 13% of our possession on Saturday.....Wales kicked 14%.

But for us, that's 40 kicks! That's a lot- and whilst kicking is not a bad tactic, kicking poorly is inexcusable. Most of that poor kicking was either Ford with rubbish high balls, too short or too long.....or the obsession with kicking through when in space in their half if there isn't a 4 on 1, its a real curse with the likes of Daly, Faz, Slade all doing it.

Not surprised about the Wales stat. Everyone is kicking loads at the moment, not just England

Yes, our kicking has not been good enough or creative enough. And when we have had a chance to play phases in good areas we haven’t been anywhere near accurate enough. These players have shown they can be a lot better though, so benefit of the doubt etc. Although usually the back line looking a lot more threatening has coincided with Manu being a focal point, both with his carrying and threat creating loads of space for everyone else.

[Mikey Brown]

I won't copy the article but the tldr is that slade misses manu.

I mean the midfield misses Manu (or a direct running threat) in general. With Slade I just don't know what his role is meant to be when picking Farrell at 12.

[Banquo]

France don’t need to be sucked into anything. They kick about the same amount of ball as England do. They are exactly the same as all the top international teams at the moment- based around kick & pressure, direct power game and set piece.

A few individuals doing occasional bits of brilliance seems to give people the impression that they just fling the ball about.

Here's a stat.....we kicked 13% of our possession on Saturday.....Wales kicked 14%.

But for us, that's 40 kicks! That's a lot- and whilst kicking is not a bad tactic, kicking poorly is inexcusable. Most of that poor kicking was either Ford with rubbish high balls, too short or too long.....or the obsession with kicking through when in space in their half if there isn't a 4 on 1, its a real curse with the likes of Daly, Faz, Slade all doing it.

Not surprised about the Wales stat. Everyone is kicking loads at the moment, not just England

Yes, our kicking has not been good enough or creative enough. And when we have had a chance to play phases in good areas we haven’t been anywhere near accurate enough. These players have shown they can be a lot better though, so benefit of the doubt etc. Although usually the back line looking a lot more threatening has coincided with Manu being a focal point, both with his carrying and threat creating loads of space for everyone else.

Yep, all a tad lateral, bar Ford, tbh. When he ran, it created quicker ball and more opportunity. As I've said in another thread, that backline needed a lot better organisation, 'plays', and a strategy for when the move doesn't result in a score....and totally on accuracy. With Youngs and Faz you are instrinsically hampered there ...but generally our handling just looks tentative and thus poor.

[Banquo]

I won't copy the article but the tldr is that slade misses manu.

I mean the midfield misses Manu (or a direct running threat) in general. With Slade I just don't know what his role is meant to be when picking Farrell at 12.

well yes, three (theoretical in Faz's case) playmakers, plus Daly as backfield play initiator rather than strike runner, makes for a buggers muddle. Then inject JJ as a third centre, and you need to really structure it all a lot better and have a running threat coming from deep at pace, as there is no bosher.

[Oakboy]

How do France get away with fielding a 2nd/3rd team? Surely, when they agreed to take part, reaching the final was seen as a possibility? Their balance of commitments to their club league, TV, and the other countries was clear before it started. Will TV demand refunds or does that only happen with British sport?

[Scrumhead]

It’s strange and disappointing. Considering how much improvement we’ve seen from the French, I’m susrprised they didn’t take the opportunity to save their first XV for a potential final. They must have had a reasonable inkling it would happen and that they’d be facing us. Surely that should have been seen as an opportunity to make a statement as in ‘you might have won the 6N, but we are the better team’.

I wouldn’t rule out losing to a French side including players with something to prove and nothing to lose, but if it’s our first XV against their 2nd/3rd string, we really should win.

My feeling is that our level of performance generally matches our opposition. RWC final aside, we generally save our better performances for tougher opponents and ease past weaker teams without ever really kicking in to gear. I hope this French side comes out and really throws everything at as. At least then we might be forced in raising our game.

[Mellsblue]

Yep. Big shame. As you say, you’d have thought they’d have saved at least some of their better players for a potential final; especially when two of the three matches used for first choice were a warmup v Wales and v Italy. Perhaps the three matches had to be consecutive. I haven’t paid enough attention to know.

This autumn’s rugby has been very underwhelming so I suppose a match against France 3rdXV will be perfect denouement (as Barnsey would say).

[Galfon]

We are like Wimbledon FC of the late 80's.

This is the nub of the matter.
There will be an equivalent of Charles Hughes somewhere feeding
stats. and justification to senior coaches, and feeling thoroughly vindicated when the wins start clocking up.
Many of those 'rubbish kicks' straight to the opposition are clearly
a devious attacking ploy guaranteed of success when accompanied by 5 or 6 flying kamikaze 16-stoners in the mix, who know how to tackle.

Fans got fed up with the long-ball game in the end..
'Many coaches and managers in England advocated his long-ball philosophy but some critics have derided his philosophy for encouraging a generation of players who lack basic technical skills and understanding of different tactical playing strategies.' (wiki)[/size]..

[Banquo]

We are like Wimbledon FC of the late 80's.

This is the nub of the matter.
There will be an equivalent of Charles Hughes somewhere feeding
stats. and justification to senior coaches, and feeling thoroughly vindicated when the wins start clocking up.
Many of those 'rubbish kicks' straight to the opposition are clearly
a devious attacking ploy guaranteed of success when accompanied by 5 or 6 flying kamikaze 16-stoners in the mix, who know how to tackle.

Fans got fed up with the long-ball game in the end..
'Many coaches and managers in England advocated his long-ball philosophy but some critics have derided his philosophy for encouraging a generation of players who lack basic technical skills and understanding of different tactical playing strategies.' (wiki)[/size]..

absolutely- the stats will say kicking good.....

[Mellsblue]

The final scores say kicking good.....

[Banquo]

The final scores say kicking good.....

hard to say when both sides are at it, I spose.

[Scrumhead]

It can’t be enjoyable for the players either. Can you imagine being the 13 knowing that you’re only ever likely to see the ball on the counter attack and you won’t be involved in any phase play.

Henry Slade will never admit it, but even if he did score a try, he’d have probably enjoyed playing Bath with Exeter far more than he did playing for England against Wales.

[Banquo]

It can’t be enjoyable for the players either. Can you imagine being the 13 knowing that you’re only ever likely to see the ball on the counter attack and you won’t be involved in any phase play.

Henry Slade will never admit it, but even if he did score a try, he’d have probably enjoyed playing Bath with Exeter far more than he did playing for England against Wales.

wouldn't have paid as well . BTW, I'm coming to your side in thinking Slade must be getting close to having spent any credit in the bank- the few interventions he's been asked to make were a tad hit and miss.

You do wonder whether the backs actually spend much time on those old fashioned things called 'moves'. They did some nice stuff v Georgia (mixed with sh*t handling in the wet) but seem to have forgotten that,

[francoisfou]

Although the players selected in the squad for Twickers don't have much international experience, there are some fine players that are more than capable of upsetting Eddie's applecart.

I don't believe the England front row will have it all their own way, although their bench options definitely tilt the balance in England's favour. In the second row, Lyon's Geraci should make the 6N squad; in the back row, players like Jelonch, Woki and Macalou will be pressing hard for 6N inclusion too. Scrum halves Couilloud and Bézy are both fine players as are the young fly halves Jalibert and Carbonel. At centre, Jonathan Danty will be a handful in the centre and much is expected from 20-year-old former U20 player Yoram Moefana. On the wing, Matthis Lebel (21) another former U20 man, is a regular in the Toulouse starting XV, Clermont's Raka already has 4 caps to his name and Gabin Villière is extremely rapid. At fullback, Brice Dulin (30 caps) will surely be in the 6N squad too.

So all in all, this "second string" French squad shouldn't be understimated and have more than an outside chance of pulling off a surprise.

[fivepointer]

Perhaps England can join in the "lets give some understudies a chance in order to build some depth" vibe and rule out all the starting XV from the Wales game.
Seems like a plan to me.
Anyone else up for that?

[Banquo]

Perhaps England can join in the "lets give some understudies a chance in order to build some depth" vibe and rule out all the starting XV from the Wales game.
Seems like a plan to me.
Anyone else up for that?

Not me. We have plenty of depth in most positions, one game wont really advance that, and I'd like to see if our 1st XV can actually play together.

[Mellsblue]

I'd like to see if our 1st XV can actually play together.

I hear Youngs and May constantly bicker over whose go it is on the squad Gameboy and Billy is a terrible loser when playing Monopoly - something about him being upset about not being allowed a loan from Nigel Wray.

[p/d]

Perhaps England can join in the "lets give some understudies a chance in order to build some depth" vibe and rule out all the starting XV from the Wales game.
Seems like a plan to me.
Anyone else up for that?

Looking out my dubbin and deep heat as I type.............

[Galfon]

It would be a pity to lose out on the trophy after experimenting, so a strongish 15 with several benchers starting and cover issues around 8, 9, 10 and 15 considered.

[Digby]

Perhaps England can join in the "lets give some understudies a chance in order to build some depth" vibe and rule out all the starting XV from the Wales game.
Seems like a plan to me.
Anyone else up for that?

Looking out my dubbin and deep heat as I type.............

I think we all assume you have those to hand when typing

[Oakboy]

Perhaps England can join in the "lets give some understudies a chance in order to build some depth" vibe and rule out all the starting XV from the Wales game.
Seems like a plan to me.
Anyone else up for that?

Looking out my dubbin and deep heat as I type.............

I think we all assume you have those to hand when typing

He didn't mention his fur-lined jockstrap.

[francoisfou]

He didn't mention his fur-lined jockstrap.

Ah yes!! An essential part of my kit turning out for the Extra 3rds on a sub-zero Saturday afternoon in Chesterfield.

[Timbo]

It’s strange and disappointing. Considering how much improvement we’ve seen from the French, I’m susrprised they didn’t take the opportunity to save their first XV for a potential final. They must have had a reasonable inkling it would happen and that they’d be facing us. Surely that should have been seen as an opportunity to make a statement as in ‘you might have won the 6N, but we are the better team’.

Galthie has said that he wanted maximum training time in camp in a single block for his first choice players. They’re still looking to build their first choice 23 as a priority. I think their attitude is that the trophies will come later.