England without Farrell

[fivepointer]

Wishful thinking perhaps but lets imagine he isnt available for the 6N's but every other midfield/back 3 candidate is.

So we have Ford, Umaga, Smith, Manu, Slade, Joseph, Marchant, Francis, Lawrence, May, Cokanasiga, Thorley, Daly, Watson, Nowell, Furbank, Malins plus someone else i've probably forgot.

Who would you pick at 10 through to 15?

Also, who would be your back up FH?

[Puja]

9. Sad as I am to say it, Youngs has probably done enough to keep the 9 shirt. As predicted, Robson has been Youngs 2.0 so far at international level and far from the radical change of pace that the anti-Youngs people hoped for. Spencer is also still wildly inconsistent, Mitchell has been in and out for Northampton (granted, this is likely because he's been away most weeks with the England training, but it's not allowed him to set down a marker), and Maunder has actively regressed (he used to have a lovely pass - what's happened to it?!).

10. Has to be Ford, although Smith is nipping at his heels right now after the Autumn that Ford had.

11. May. Doesn't even need explaining.
12. Manu
13. Slade
14. Watson
15. Malins - looks to be the playmaking 15 that Eddie hoped Daly would turn into if he kept playing him there long enough, and has yet to show an utter liability in defence or under the high ball.

Let's assume that Manu isn't fit though, because that's a) likely and b) the real issue here. Manu is the key figure in our midfield and, without him, we look toothless. He's provided the balance to make Slade or Farrell at centre work and would likely do the same alongside Joseph or Marchant. His absence is the biggest problem, not Farrell.

It's asking a lot of Lawrence to ask him to pretend to be Manu - he's a very promising talent, but I'm not convinced he's yet international quality. Devoto? Can't nail down the 12 shirt for Exeter. Redpath is too slight to take on the role. Do we go outside the box and move Nowell inside? I'd support him at 13, but that doesn't solve who's 12 (plus "What happens if our injury-prone centre is injured?" is not hugely solved by picking another injury-prone player). Dingwall? He's not massive and has the same issues as Lawrence.

I genuinely do not know. I really wish Johnny Williams was still an option!

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Both Simmonds brothers missing from this thread.

[Epaminondas Pules]

They don’t need to be massive or powerful, just offer a threat inside and out. And of course we need to generate quick go forward ball

[Epaminondas Pules]

And vary our play. If we’re not offering a direct threat and the defence is rushing then let’s look at short chips or effective dummy runners coming back to hold them.

[Banquo]

Poor Joe Simmonds. Best all round 10 in the prem at the mo.

[Scrumhead]

9. Sad as I am to say it, Youngs has probably done enough to keep the 9 shirt. As predicted, Robson has been Youngs 2.0 so far at international level and far from the radical change of pace that the anti-Youngs people hoped for. Spencer is also still wildly inconsistent, Mitchell has been in and out for Northampton (granted, this is likely because he's been away most weeks with the England training, but it's not allowed him to set down a marker), and Maunder has actively regressed (he used to have a lovely pass - what's happened to it?!).

10. Has to be Ford, although Smith is nipping at his heels right now after the Autumn that Ford had.

11. May. Doesn't even need explaining.
12. Manu
13. Slade
14. Watson
15. Malins - looks to be the playmaking 15 that Eddie hoped Daly would turn into if he kept playing him there long enough, and has yet to show an utter liability in defence or under the high ball.

Let's assume that Manu isn't fit though, because that's a) likely and b) the real issue here. Manu is the key figure in our midfield and, without him, we look toothless. He's provided the balance to make Slade or Farrell at centre work and would likely do the same alongside Joseph or Marchant. His absence is the biggest problem, not Farrell.

It's asking a lot of Lawrence to ask him to pretend to be Manu - he's a very promising talent, but I'm not convinced he's yet international quality. Devoto? Can't nail down the 12 shirt for Exeter. Redpath is too slight to take on the role. Do we go outside the box and move Nowell inside? I'd support him at 13, but that doesn't solve who's 12 (plus "What happens if our injury-prone centre is injured?" is not hugely solved by picking another injury-prone player). Dingwall? He's not massive and has the same issues as Lawrence.

I genuinely do not know. I really wish Johnny Williams was still an option!

Puja

TBH, I agree with pretty much all of this.

I’d be open to Daly on the wing instead of Watson depending on who is in better form, but Malins’ cameo against France was a great teaser and I’d definitely like to see him get a start at 15.

[Stom]

Why not do something new?

Maunder, Simmonds, May, Devoto, Slade, Daly, Watson.

And then pick the pack as:

Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Curry, Willis, Simmonds

[Scrumhead]

‘Why not do something new?’. What like pick Exeter players wherever possible?

I can see a case for most of your suggestions but Maunder is just so meh ... he’s just ... there.

[Oakboy]

Why not do something new?

Maunder, Simmonds, May, Devoto, Slade, Daly, Watson.

And then pick the pack as:

Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Curry, Willis, Simmonds

My only doubt would be Maunder.

[Stom]

‘Why not do something new?’. What like pick Exeter players wherever possible?

I can see a case for most of your suggestions but Maunder is just so meh ... he’s just ... there.

I know, I know, lol.

Yeah, give me Robson there and I’ll be happy.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It depends. If you want Aaron Smith then good luck as there isn’t one. Not even close. If you want someone who you can mould into a more rounded player because they excel in some aspects then look at a Maunder, or Randall, but also recognise that a SH can only work with what’s around them and the game plan.

[Puja]

Poor Joe Simmonds. Best all round 10 in the prem at the mo.

Not with Smith in the form that he's been in this season.

Why not do something new?

Maunder, Simmonds, May, Devoto, Slade, Daly, Watson.

And then pick the pack as:

Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Curry, Willis, Simmonds

Devoto can't crack the Exeter starting XV in favour of Ian Whitten. Plus, I have been a huge champion of Maunder, but he is not in any kind of position to be talked about for England honours. I like your pack though.

Puja

[morepork]

This feels like a wake

[Oakboy]

This feels like a wake

Well, watching England is depressing and being told after every game that the biggest on-field culprit is world-class does little to cheer one up!

[Mikey Brown]

Poor Joe Simmonds. Best all round 10 in the prem at the mo.

Not with Smith in the form that he's been in this season.

Why not do something new?

Maunder, Simmonds, May, Devoto, Slade, Daly, Watson.

And then pick the pack as:

Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Curry, Willis, Simmonds

Devoto can't crack the Exeter starting XV in favour of Ian Whitten.
Puja

Can he not?

[Scrumhead]

To be fair, Baxter tends to mix it up.

He generally tends to pick Whitten somewhere (centre or wing), but not always at Devoto’s expense.

Devoto’s biggest problem is being highly injury prone. He rarely puts together a run of longer than 3/4 games which makes it very difficult for him to press a case.

[ad_tigger]

Much as with his play everything I see of Farell makes me think he's very limited as a leader in that I'm not convinced he really does much thinking. IIRC someone on here posited the idea that Eddy needs to be the smartest guy in the room and that really rings true for me with Hartley and Farell as his captains. All he wants is someone who will train himself into the ground, stick too the script and bang on about how big an opportunity each week is. I imagine that in years to come there'll be books on this regime about how difficult he was to take seriously.

[p/d]

Given the opportunity this thread offers then I would not have Ford or Youngs starting. Simmonds richly deserves a look and Robson a run of game time.

Either Watson or Mallins at fb (definitely not Daly) and May plus Nowell/Daly on wings.

Centre Lawrence and Slade.

Bish bash bosh!!!

[Banquo]

Poor Joe Simmonds. Best all round 10 in the prem at the mo.

Not with Smith in the form that he's been in this season.

Why not do something new?

Maunder, Simmonds, May, Devoto, Slade, Daly, Watson.

And then pick the pack as:

Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Curry, Willis, Simmonds

Devoto can't crack the Exeter starting XV in favour of Ian Whitten. Plus, I have been a huge champion of Maunder, but he is not in any kind of position to be talked about for England honours. I like your pack though.

Puja

I beg to differ.

[Stom]

Poor Joe Simmonds. Best all round 10 in the prem at the mo.

Not with Smith in the form that he's been in this season.

Why not do something new?

Maunder, Simmonds, May, Devoto, Slade, Daly, Watson.

And then pick the pack as:

Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Curry, Willis, Simmonds

Devoto can't crack the Exeter starting XV in favour of Ian Whitten. Plus, I have been a huge champion of Maunder, but he is not in any kind of position to be talked about for England honours. I like your pack though.

Puja

I beg to differ.

Which part: Devoto, Maunder, or the pack?

I'll be honest: I'm not being 100% serious.

That isn't the team I would pick. I WOULD like to see us learn something from Exeter, but I don't think that means picking a load of players from them and Sarries. I do think it means the pack needs to be a bit more effective than it currently is and our backs need to be a lot more effective.

I wouldn't make huge changes from what we have now. Put simply: we do not have a sledgehammer in midfield, so let's not create a system that needs one and instead utilise footwork and agility to create holes rather than bashing through them.

That means Billy needs to be used slightly wider again, which means we need to improve our tight in carrying again. But, again, while we have 2 amazing props, both of them are more suited slightly wider and slightly more involved in the game. Hmmm...

I think I'd probably be looking toward:

Mako, George, Sinckler
Itoje, Hill
Curry, Billy, Willis
Youngs, Ford
May, Slade, Joseph, Watson
Malins

LCD, Genge, Stuart, Launch, Underhill, Robson, Simmonds, Daly

Leave the grunt work in close to Hill and whichever front row is available. Use Itoje and Willis mainly at ruck time in attack, again, with whoever is available of the front row. Use the remaining front row, Curry and Billy for "1-out" carries where we offload just before contact to change the point of attack. Draw in one of the outside defenders and get the ball quickly to one of our 3 potential playmakers, who can choose which of the agile 3 outside them to put into which gap. If there isn't, reset: our pack is quick enough to get over in support anywhere, especially with Curry and Willis' workrate.

I know we're not famed for our handling, but when we've got 3 front rows who can handle to a high standard, you need to be using them. We should be making a lot more use of those quick offloads prior to the tackle - the thing Jones used with Japan. The only difference is we have the power game to make ground when we don't tip the ball on. France seem to do it brilliantly with that quick, powerful and skillful backrow. Well, ours are props, so they're even bigger. Use them, ffs.

It's a shame for Launch to miss out, but Hill is better at the close in stuff and you don't lose too much in the wider game, even though Launch is better.

[Banquo]

Not with Smith in the form that he's been in this season.


Devoto can't crack the Exeter starting XV in favour of Ian Whitten. Plus, I have been a huge champion of Maunder, but he is not in any kind of position to be talked about for England honours. I like your pack though.

Puja

I beg to differ.

Which part: Devoto, Maunder, or the pack?

I'll be honest: I'm not being 100% serious.

That isn't the team I would pick. I WOULD like to see us learn something from Exeter, but I don't think that means picking a load of players from them and Sarries. I do think it means the pack needs to be a bit more effective than it currently is and our backs need to be a lot more effective.

I wouldn't make huge changes from what we have now. Put simply: we do not have a sledgehammer in midfield, so let's not create a system that needs one and instead utilise footwork and agility to create holes rather than bashing through them.

That means Billy needs to be used slightly wider again, which means we need to improve our tight in carrying again. But, again, while we have 2 amazing props, both of them are more suited slightly wider and slightly more involved in the game. Hmmm...

I think I'd probably be looking toward:

Mako, George, Sinckler
Itoje, Hill
Curry, Billy, Willis
Youngs, Ford
May, Slade, Joseph, Watson
Malins

LCD, Genge, Stuart, Launch, Underhill, Robson, Simmonds, Daly

Leave the grunt work in close to Hill and whichever front row is available. Use Itoje and Willis mainly at ruck time in attack, again, with whoever is available of the front row. Use the remaining front row, Curry and Billy for "1-out" carries where we offload just before contact to change the point of attack. Draw in one of the outside defenders and get the ball quickly to one of our 3 potential playmakers, who can choose which of the agile 3 outside them to put into which gap. If there isn't, reset: our pack is quick enough to get over in support anywhere, especially with Curry and Willis' workrate.

I know we're not famed for our handling, but when we've got 3 front rows who can handle to a high standard, you need to be using them. We should be making a lot more use of those quick offloads prior to the tackle - the thing Jones used with Japan. The only difference is we have the power game to make ground when we don't tip the ball on. France seem to do it brilliantly with that quick, powerful and skillful backrow. Well, ours are props, so they're even bigger. Use them, ffs.

It's a shame for Launch to miss out, but Hill is better at the close in stuff and you don't lose too much in the wider game, even though Launch is better.

lol sorry, replied to the wrong post. I'd pick Joe Simmonds above Smith, though Smith is in good nick and seems to have improved his place kicking?

On your team, whilst I'd lke to see that back line, I'm not convinced there is enough heft there to worry defences, and Slade at 12 is very much a guess still. I'd still have launchbury, esp with Willis in the back three; how is Hill better at the close in stuff, Launch is fantastic in the maul for example? genuine q.

[Stom]

I beg to differ.

Which part: Devoto, Maunder, or the pack?

I'll be honest: I'm not being 100% serious.

That isn't the team I would pick. I WOULD like to see us learn something from Exeter, but I don't think that means picking a load of players from them and Sarries. I do think it means the pack needs to be a bit more effective than it currently is and our backs need to be a lot more effective.

I wouldn't make huge changes from what we have now. Put simply: we do not have a sledgehammer in midfield, so let's not create a system that needs one and instead utilise footwork and agility to create holes rather than bashing through them.

That means Billy needs to be used slightly wider again, which means we need to improve our tight in carrying again. But, again, while we have 2 amazing props, both of them are more suited slightly wider and slightly more involved in the game. Hmmm...

I think I'd probably be looking toward:

Mako, George, Sinckler
Itoje, Hill
Curry, Billy, Willis
Youngs, Ford
May, Slade, Joseph, Watson
Malins

LCD, Genge, Stuart, Launch, Underhill, Robson, Simmonds, Daly

Leave the grunt work in close to Hill and whichever front row is available. Use Itoje and Willis mainly at ruck time in attack, again, with whoever is available of the front row. Use the remaining front row, Curry and Billy for "1-out" carries where we offload just before contact to change the point of attack. Draw in one of the outside defenders and get the ball quickly to one of our 3 potential playmakers, who can choose which of the agile 3 outside them to put into which gap. If there isn't, reset: our pack is quick enough to get over in support anywhere, especially with Curry and Willis' workrate.

I know we're not famed for our handling, but when we've got 3 front rows who can handle to a high standard, you need to be using them. We should be making a lot more use of those quick offloads prior to the tackle - the thing Jones used with Japan. The only difference is we have the power game to make ground when we don't tip the ball on. France seem to do it brilliantly with that quick, powerful and skillful backrow. Well, ours are props, so they're even bigger. Use them, ffs.

It's a shame for Launch to miss out, but Hill is better at the close in stuff and you don't lose too much in the wider game, even though Launch is better.

lol sorry, replied to the wrong post. I'd pick Joe Simmonds above Smith, though Smith is in good nick and seems to have improved his place kicking?

On your team, whilst I'd lke to see that back line, I'm not convinced there is enough heft there to worry defences, and Slade at 12 is very much a guess still. I'd still have launchbury, esp with Willis in the back three; how is Hill better at the close in stuff, Launch is fantastic in the maul for example? genuine q.

Hill is a very good close carrier, ruck hitter and lineout operator (and at restarts, lol). I'd like some of that and would happily pick Launch if Ted Hill was actually as good as Curry and Willis, but he doesn't appear to be (yet).

Smith is doing some very good stuff, imo. I think he's an excellent player. But he's not quite what I'd go for right now, if I'm honest. I think we still need to be playing the percentages, kicking for touch, rather than Smith's more mercurial play. I'd love to see Smith paired with Marchant at international level: they work so well for Quins because of Marchant's insane agility, and I think that could be a real attacking weapon for us.

[Banquo]

Which part: Devoto, Maunder, or the pack?

I'll be honest: I'm not being 100% serious.

That isn't the team I would pick. I WOULD like to see us learn something from Exeter, but I don't think that means picking a load of players from them and Sarries. I do think it means the pack needs to be a bit more effective than it currently is and our backs need to be a lot more effective.

I wouldn't make huge changes from what we have now. Put simply: we do not have a sledgehammer in midfield, so let's not create a system that needs one and instead utilise footwork and agility to create holes rather than bashing through them.

That means Billy needs to be used slightly wider again, which means we need to improve our tight in carrying again. But, again, while we have 2 amazing props, both of them are more suited slightly wider and slightly more involved in the game. Hmmm...

I think I'd probably be looking toward:

Mako, George, Sinckler
Itoje, Hill
Curry, Billy, Willis
Youngs, Ford
May, Slade, Joseph, Watson
Malins

LCD, Genge, Stuart, Launch, Underhill, Robson, Simmonds, Daly

Leave the grunt work in close to Hill and whichever front row is available. Use Itoje and Willis mainly at ruck time in attack, again, with whoever is available of the front row. Use the remaining front row, Curry and Billy for "1-out" carries where we offload just before contact to change the point of attack. Draw in one of the outside defenders and get the ball quickly to one of our 3 potential playmakers, who can choose which of the agile 3 outside them to put into which gap. If there isn't, reset: our pack is quick enough to get over in support anywhere, especially with Curry and Willis' workrate.

I know we're not famed for our handling, but when we've got 3 front rows who can handle to a high standard, you need to be using them. We should be making a lot more use of those quick offloads prior to the tackle - the thing Jones used with Japan. The only difference is we have the power game to make ground when we don't tip the ball on. France seem to do it brilliantly with that quick, powerful and skillful backrow. Well, ours are props, so they're even bigger. Use them, ffs.

It's a shame for Launch to miss out, but Hill is better at the close in stuff and you don't lose too much in the wider game, even though Launch is better.

lol sorry, replied to the wrong post. I'd pick Joe Simmonds above Smith, though Smith is in good nick and seems to have improved his place kicking?

On your team, whilst I'd lke to see that back line, I'm not convinced there is enough heft there to worry defences, and Slade at 12 is very much a guess still. I'd still have launchbury, esp with Willis in the back three; how is Hill better at the close in stuff, Launch is fantastic in the maul for example? genuine q.

Hill is a very good close carrier, ruck hitter and lineout operator (and at restarts, lol). I'd like some of that and would happily pick Launch if Ted Hill was actually as good as Curry and Willis, but he doesn't appear to be (yet).

Smith is doing some very good stuff, imo. I think he's an excellent player. But he's not quite what I'd go for right now, if I'm honest. I think we still need to be playing the percentages, kicking for touch, rather than Smith's more mercurial play. I'd love to see Smith paired with Marchant at international level: they work so well for Quins because of Marchant's insane agility, and I think that could be a real attacking weapon for us.

Launchbury also carries well close in, hits rucks, and is very good over the ball, and is also a good tight scrummager; I'd say Hill edges at lineout and is a bit more mobile.

[FKAS]

Backline with no Farrell?

Youngs, Ford
Manu, Slade
Thorley, May, Mallins

Robson, Simmons, Lawrence

Plenty of direct runners in the backline to give Ford something to work with. Robson can come on and attack if we need it or Simmons can come on and offer control, he can also cover 15. May and Thorley are both quick but Thorley offers a bit more power.

If we can add that to a forward pack of;

Vunipola, George, Sinckler
Itoje, Hill
Curry, Underhill, Willis

LCD, Genge, Stuart, Lawes, Earl on the bench. Plenty of impact off the bench and aggression on the pitch to start. Can be mobile in the backrow because there's actually some carrying ability in the backs. Harsh on Launchbury now he's returned to form but Lawes has more impact from the bench and the Itoje/HIll combination could develop and see us through to the next world cup whereas Launchbury is unlikely to make that as he'll be 33 by then.