New captain

[Insouciant]

As ever, IMO, the captain has to be a definite starting player. I think it is reasonable to suggest that Itoje is the first name on the team-sheet.

Both Farrell and Ford, as captains, have done good jobs at sticking exactly to the script. For Jones to switch from one of that pair, he would be admitting that his whole head-coach strategy (England players need telling what to do etc.) is flawed. I think it is but I can't see him admitting it.

Itoje as captain takes control away from the YFF axis and that makes it a fundamental change where another brain has the main say. It makes any or all of the three droppable and is such a change of direction that Jones won't consider it. That probably makes it the right decision.

Definitely. The captain needs to be a nailed on selection. This issue raised its head when Hartley was captain when George came to the fore. Itoje seems the most nailed on at the moment, except maybe Jonny May (??).. but who picks wingers first?

Itoje does have give off the I'll run through a brick wall for this team' vibe about him, which is something Scott Quinell said of Johnson (re the lions '97). Of who is currently being selected - if Farrell was to be de-selected/benched - Itoje is the top choice.


The way Eddie has previously selected teams... my bet is that Farrell will start at 12 anyway... or that he is benched but Youngs is given the captaincy, Itoje or Lawes plays 6 (hell why not use them both in the back row) and Daly stays @ 15 despite looking like a way better winger than full back.

[francoisfou]

As ever, IMO, the captain has to be a definite starting player. I think it is reasonable to suggest that Itoje is the first name on the team-sheet.

Both Farrell and Ford, as captains, have done good jobs at sticking exactly to the script. For Jones to switch from one of that pair, he would be admitting that his whole head-coach strategy (England players need telling what to do etc.) is flawed. I think it is but I can't see him admitting it.

Itoje as captain takes control away from the YFF axis and that makes it a fundamental change where another brain has the main say. It makes any or all of the three droppable and is such a change of direction that Jones won't consider it. That probably makes it the right decision.

Definitely. The captain needs to be a nailed on selection. This issue raised its head when Hartley was captain when George came to the fore. Itoje seems the most nailed on at the moment, except maybe Jonny May (??).. but who picks wingers first?

Itoje does have give off the I'll run through a brick wall for this team' vibe about him, which is something Scott Quinell said of Johnson (re the lions '97). Of who is currently being selected - if Farrell was to be de-selected/benched - Itoje is the top choice.


The way Eddie has previously selected teams... my bet is that Farrell will start at 12 anyway... or that he is benched but Youngs is given the captaincy, Itoje or Lawes plays 6 (hell why not use them both in the back row) and Daly stays @ 15 despite looking like a way better winger than full back.

You may well be right. Eddie, being as stubborn as he is, will probably not drop Farrell and may indeed move him to 12. Youngs for captain? Why not, as he won't be dropped either! However, Willis at 6, please, drop Billy and move Wilson to 8, keep Curry at 7, Malins to full back and bench Daly.

[Oakboy]

As ever, IMO, the captain has to be a definite starting player. I think it is reasonable to suggest that Itoje is the first name on the team-sheet.

Both Farrell and Ford, as captains, have done good jobs at sticking exactly to the script. For Jones to switch from one of that pair, he would be admitting that his whole head-coach strategy (England players need telling what to do etc.) is flawed. I think it is but I can't see him admitting it.

Itoje as captain takes control away from the YFF axis and that makes it a fundamental change where another brain has the main say. It makes any or all of the three droppable and is such a change of direction that Jones won't consider it. That probably makes it the right decision.

Definitely. The captain needs to be a nailed on selection. This issue raised its head when Hartley was captain when George came to the fore. Itoje seems the most nailed on at the moment, except maybe Jonny May (??).. but who picks wingers first?

Itoje does have give off the I'll run through a brick wall for this team' vibe about him, which is something Scott Quinell said of Johnson (re the lions '97). Of who is currently being selected - if Farrell was to be de-selected/benched - Itoje is the top choice.


The way Eddie has previously selected teams... my bet is that Farrell will start at 12 anyway... or that he is benched but Youngs is given the captaincy, Itoje or Lawes plays 6 (hell why not use them both in the back row) and Daly stays @ 15 despite looking like a way better winger than full back.

There were some stats in the paper pointing out that the team was more successful under Hartley's captaincy - maybe a hint towards a forward as captain? Perhaps a forward-captain can get the grunt-men to up their game at crucial moments in a way that no back could. That could have made all the difference against Scotland.

[Shiny]

I can't see past Itoje. Its not like anyone else who is an obvious starter is putting their hand up. Just no more Fazbot for me. It would be interesting that if there was a change of coach in the near future would the new coach pick Farrell?

[Mikey Brown]

I feel like he’d largely got his penalty count under control recently too, but yesterday it seemed clear somebody needed to turn things for England and he naturally takes that upon himself. Just didn’t get away with it.

[jngf]

Even the very pro Farrell rugby press are starting to loose faith in him. From a spectator point of view Farrell is great at kicking penalties but that aside seems a very mediocre player at test level and the world class tag has always baffled me in all honesty... He really is fast becoming Eddie’s Borthwick now

[Oakboy]

Even the very pro Farrell rugby press are starting to loose faith in him. From a spectator point of view Farrell is great at kicking penalties but that aside seems a very mediocre player at test level and the world class tag has always baffled me in all honesty... He really is fast becoming Eddie’s Borthwick now

Plus, at crunch time, Jones rates Farrell as a better FH than Ford. I'd pick neither but if I was forced to pick one or the other it would be Ford every time. This board is joyously varied in many areas but in a straight F or F choice it must be close to unanimous in disagreeing with Jones.

[Stom]

I feel like he’d largely got his penalty count under control recently too, but yesterday it seemed clear somebody needed to turn things for England and he naturally takes that upon himself. Just didn’t get away with it.

If I'm honest, I think it was really tough for any of our players discipline-wise. The ref's interpretations were very strict and the only way to avoid giving penalties away was to be the attacking team. Some of the penalties were a joke, if we're being honest, but he was consistent and it was our sheer idiocy in sticking like slaves to a gameplan that did not work that cost any semblance of a coherent performance.

[Digby]

I feel like he’d largely got his penalty count under control recently too, but yesterday it seemed clear somebody needed to turn things for England and he naturally takes that upon himself. Just didn’t get away with it.

If I'm honest, I think it was really tough for any of our players discipline-wise. The ref's interpretations were very strict and the only way to avoid giving penalties away was to be the attacking team. Some of the penalties were a joke, if we're being honest, but he was consistent and it was our sheer idiocy in sticking like slaves to a gameplan that did not work that cost any semblance of a coherent performance.

There would still be at least 8 if not 12 brainless penalties in there even if we try to pass some of it off to the ref, and that allied to having no attack, May dropping the ball to remind us of the dropsy player he used to be, a lack of ability/intent to support the breakdown and a misfiring lineout left us nowhere to go. Perhaps we highlighted you can't take months off and play a test match whatever your training data says, but we chose to pick players who by many reasonable standards should have been judged as making themselves unavailable, and we did badly miss Mako and Sincks.

About the only thing that was tough for our players was accepting despite them being sure they were better than Scotland they'd have to put in some effort to make that count, instead the arrogance kicked in and they behaved in a selfish manner, I'd suggest unacceptable too. Yes it's only one game, but there really aren't any excuses to be had because we totally did that to ourselves in selection, tactics and decisions on the pitch.

I suppose Obano got his cap, and that's not nothing.

[jngf]

I have a further concern that analysis is being started to be banded about as both an excuse (as in GPS stats showed Sarries players were pulling their weight - pardon the pun) and a solution as in we’ll go and do thorough detailed analysis as to what went wrong. Appreciate that data driven aspect of professional sport is ever more prominent but the problems on Saturday aren’t so hidden that they need a spreadsheet or deep learning/AI to rectify - start looking at kicking away procession and some players being patently poorly conditioned (bluntly overweight) for starters!

[Which Tyler]

Yes, it wouldn't be so bad if they were poorly conditioned from the bench!

[Freddo]

Even the very pro Farrell rugby press are starting to loose faith in him. From a spectator point of view Farrell is great at kicking penalties but that aside seems a very mediocre player at test level and the world class tag has always baffled me in all honesty... He really is fast becoming Eddie’s Borthwick now

Plus, at crunch time, Jones rates Farrell as a better FH than Ford. I'd pick neither but if I was forced to pick one or the other it would be Ford every time. This board is joyously varied in many areas but in a straight F or F choice it must be close to unanimous in disagreeing with Jones.

Who would you pick at FH mate?

[Oakboy]

Even the very pro Farrell rugby press are starting to loose faith in him. From a spectator point of view Farrell is great at kicking penalties but that aside seems a very mediocre player at test level and the world class tag has always baffled me in all honesty... He really is fast becoming Eddie’s Borthwick now

Plus, at crunch time, Jones rates Farrell as a better FH than Ford. I'd pick neither but if I was forced to pick one or the other it would be Ford every time. This board is joyously varied in many areas but in a straight F or F choice it must be close to unanimous in disagreeing with Jones.

Who would you pick at FH mate?

I'd pick Simmonds with Smith on the bench - but not with Youngs or Farrell in the 23.

[oldbackrow]

It's the leading by example and giving away penalties which concerns me. Though sometimes poacher turned gamekeeper does work well

Overall we might not have any obvious candidates, the options beyond Farrell and Itoje being George, Ted Hill, Mercer, Slade, Ford, Underhill, Curry, Daly, Watson, Launch, Ewels who all come with a few issues. If I was taking a punt, and it wouldn't be anything more, it'd be for Slade if only on the basis it might prompt some interest in attack

According to ESPN, out of the 15 penalties England conceded, Itoje and Curry led the way with 3 each. I would argue that 2 of Itojes (one lineout where the Scottish player tilted because of his lifter and where he went through the ruck) he was unlucky with.

[Puja]

It's the leading by example and giving away penalties which concerns me. Though sometimes poacher turned gamekeeper does work well

Overall we might not have any obvious candidates, the options beyond Farrell and Itoje being George, Ted Hill, Mercer, Slade, Ford, Underhill, Curry, Daly, Watson, Launch, Ewels who all come with a few issues. If I was taking a punt, and it wouldn't be anything more, it'd be for Slade if only on the basis it might prompt some interest in attack

According to ESPN, out of the 15 penalties England conceded, Itoje and Curry led the way with 3 each. I would argue that 2 of Itojes (one lineout where the Scottish player tilted because of his lifter and where he went through the ruck) he was unlucky with.

I'd say going through the ruck wasn't that unlucky - he was suckered by the Scottish scrum-half and deserved to get pinged, even if a few refs wouldn't've given it for it having no effect on the play. His third penalty was for failure to evaporate from the bottom of a pile of bodies after making a tackle, so a decent argument could be made that he was unlucky on all three.

I'm also still baffled by how Curry got penalised for "changing his bind" in a maul when he was clearly through the middle and had Scottish players on either side of him. The ref was definitely not the difference in the result, but he was a f*cking experience.

Puja

[Digby]

It's the leading by example and giving away penalties which concerns me. Though sometimes poacher turned gamekeeper does work well

Overall we might not have any obvious candidates, the options beyond Farrell and Itoje being George, Ted Hill, Mercer, Slade, Ford, Underhill, Curry, Daly, Watson, Launch, Ewels who all come with a few issues. If I was taking a punt, and it wouldn't be anything more, it'd be for Slade if only on the basis it might prompt some interest in attack

According to ESPN, out of the 15 penalties England conceded, Itoje and Curry led the way with 3 each. I would argue that 2 of Itojes (one lineout where the Scottish player tilted because of his lifter and where he went through the ruck) he was unlucky with.

Were it one match that'd be one thing. But Maro has form for being to the fore when it comes to giving away useless penalties, he's either got to cut the number or make them worthwhile

[Bloggs]

Are we really talking about poor discipline should stop Maro being captain when the current captain is Owen Farrell...?

[Cameo]

It's the leading by example and giving away penalties which concerns me. Though sometimes poacher turned gamekeeper does work well

Overall we might not have any obvious candidates, the options beyond Farrell and Itoje being George, Ted Hill, Mercer, Slade, Ford, Underhill, Curry, Daly, Watson, Launch, Ewels who all come with a few issues. If I was taking a punt, and it wouldn't be anything more, it'd be for Slade if only on the basis it might prompt some interest in attack

According to ESPN, out of the 15 penalties England conceded, Itoje and Curry led the way with 3 each. I would argue that 2 of Itojes (one lineout where the Scottish player tilted because of his lifter and where he went through the ruck) he was unlucky with.

I'd say going through the ruck wasn't that unlucky - he was suckered by the Scottish scrum-half and deserved to get pinged, even if a few refs wouldn't've given it for it having no effect on the play. His third penalty was for failure to evaporate from the bottom of a pile of bodies after making a tackle, so a decent argument could be made that he was unlucky on all three.

I'm also still baffled by how Curry got penalised for "changing his bind" in a maul when he was clearly through the middle and had Scottish players on either side of him. The ref was definitely not the difference in the result, but he was a f*cking experience.

Puja

I think the Curry one was quite clear. As I saw it, he came through the maul, saw the ball carrier near him, and changed his bind from the guy he had been on to the ball carrier.

The need to evaporate annoys me. I'd be all for being strict on that if they also penalised attacking teams definitely holding people in. Itoje's one coming through onto Price seemed pretty clear to me but haven't watched it back so could be wrong

[Oakboy]

Are we really talking about poor discipline should stop Maro being captain when the current captain is Owen Farrell...?

Quite. Itoje's commitment is an absolute positive. In a way, it indicates that he'll do what he thinks is right at any point. We need more of that instead of Farrell's robotics.

[Raggs]

Just watching the Next Level video, and whilst it's brilliant on the props, the talk by Farrell at the end, if I was in the dressing room then, I don't know if I'd be paying much attention to him (at least as one of those backs). Leadership is all well and good, but it's tough taking a talk (even one that's not particularly negative) when the guy giving it blew such huge and "obvious" (for an international fly half) chances.

[Digby]

I think the Curry one was quite clear. As I saw it, he came through the maul, saw the ball carrier near him, and changed his bind from the guy he had been on to the ball carrier.

But if he came through the middle why does he have to be bound? Thus he wouldn't be changing a bind. Well not if that's what had happened, I recall him getting pinged but was at that point talking about brewing beer with the rugby having faded to the equivalent of a screen saver

[Raggs]

I think the Curry one was quite clear. As I saw it, he came through the maul, saw the ball carrier near him, and changed his bind from the guy he had been on to the ball carrier.

But if he came through the middle why does he have to be bound? Thus he wouldn't be changing a bind. Well not if that's what had happened, I recall him getting pinged but was at that point talking about brewing beer with the rugby having faded to the equivalent of a screen saver

He had a Scottish player hanging onto his back, whilst an Englishman was on his side I believe.

Best argument could perhaps be that when he released his bind, he and the scot player became unbound, then when he reattached, he was immediately offside, regardless of the scot on his back. Did think it a little harsh when I saw it, but I could also understand it, a 50/50 that didn't go our way.

Make Ford captain... and only ever start him. Someone crunched the numbers on NPR and found that when Ford started at 10, we have an 83% win rate, when Farrell starts at 10, it's 64% (may be one or two % out).

[Big D]

Itoje. Discussion over.

Puja

I am not so sure Itoje is your best option.

He sails close to the edge (in a good way IMO) but when it is your captain doing so it can rub the ref up the wrong way and change the captains relationship with the ref.

From an impartial outsider, is part of the problem that you have very little obvious candidates outside Farrell and Itoje? The horse is bolted to an extent for this 6N but Simmonds would seem like a candidate to be 10 and captain to me.

[Big D]

I think the Curry one was quite clear. As I saw it, he came through the maul, saw the ball carrier near him, and changed his bind from the guy he had been on to the ball carrier.

But if he came through the middle why does he have to be bound? Thus he wouldn't be changing a bind. Well not if that's what had happened, I recall him getting pinged but was at that point talking about brewing beer with the rugby having faded to the equivalent of a screen saver

I may be wrong as it has been a while since I looked. But the maul doesn't stop being a maul because a defender leaves it. There is a bit about intentionally leaving it (which he must have done if he let him bind go) and any defender joining a maul can't join ahead of the furthest forward attacking player in the maul.

[Digby]

I think the Curry one was quite clear. As I saw it, he came through the maul, saw the ball carrier near him, and changed his bind from the guy he had been on to the ball carrier.

But if he came through the middle why does he have to be bound? Thus he wouldn't be changing a bind. Well not if that's what had happened, I recall him getting pinged but was at that point talking about brewing beer with the rugby having faded to the equivalent of a screen saver

He had a Scottish player hanging onto his back, whilst an Englishman was on his side I believe.

Best argument could perhaps be that when he released his bind, he and the scot player became unbound, then when he reattached, he was immediately offside, regardless of the scot on his back. Did think it a little harsh when I saw it, but I could also understand it, a 50/50 that didn't go our way.

Make Ford captain... and only ever start him. Someone crunched the numbers on NPR and found that when Ford started at 10, we have an 83% win rate, when Farrell starts at 10, it's 64% (may be one or two % out).

If he's still in the maul he's not going to be offside, so was he still in having come up the middle?

That said I tend not to have sympathy with Curry because you should be thinking not just about what is but what a situation will look like to the near blind prick with the whistle