Tigers vs Wasps Sat 3pm

[morepork]

I’m not saying the Brookes’ red was necessarily the wrong decision, but you do see high/head shots like that quite a few times from ruck & tackle situation in every game. It was really only the Lavinini reaction that highlighted it.

That's probably the point of cracking down on it, no?

[Peej]

Liebenburg was going forward, not paying any attention to where Bassett was. It was dozy, dangerous play.

Looked a straight red to me, as did the other two.

By going forward so you mean walking backwards looking at the ball that was coming down pretty much on top of him but for the flying Bassett? It's a bit dozy but it's an innocent mistake, since when do we give red cards for innocent mistakes? The first two red cards are very reckless from players that can see the incident clearly in front of them and chose to act the way they do. The third is a tired forward who gets surprised by a winger fresh of the bench and blindsided. I was generally the winger in those situations and if cards had been given out like that in the Leicestershire leagues we'd have won a lot more games because the opposition would have been playing with less players.

These are interesting views of events. Liebenberg clearly moves forward. Bassett had been on from the start. Who doesn't jump to contest kick offs? If your argument is that Brookes got himself in a lazy position and should be punished for it, then surely that extends to Liebenberg too?

[Beasties]

Wiese Stats
66 meters gained
6 defenders beaten
2 tackles
0 missed

In just 26 minutes, imagine if he'd not got himself sent off... I wonder if Eddie is checking for English relatives?

The Wasps tackling in the first half could charitably be described as optional. They completely let Tigers into that match, which they gladly accepted.

It's these sort of games where Wasps look out of sorts where Jack Willis does four or five extraorddinary things and drags them back into contention.

[Timbo]

I’m not saying the Brookes’ red was necessarily the wrong decision, but you do see high/head shots like that quite a few times from ruck & tackle situation in every game. It was really only the Lavinini reaction that highlighted it.

That's probably the point of cracking down on it, no?

I’d suggest that the laws and framework were, by and large, put in place to deal with much more egregious incidents than that Brookes’ tackle. I don’t think you can reasonably hope to eliminate all head contact in rugby, so the corollary is that you can’t sanction every piece of head contact during a game. If you do you either render it unplayable, unwatchable or both. Imo.

[Peej]

Wiese Stats
66 meters gained
6 defenders beaten
2 tackles
0 missed

In just 26 minutes, imagine if he'd not got himself sent off... I wonder if Eddie is checking for English relatives?

The Wasps tackling in the first half could charitably be described as optional. They completely let Tigers into that match, which they gladly accepted.

It's these sort of games where Wasps look out of sorts where Jack Willis does four or five extraorddinary things and drags them back into contention.

Yes, Wasps appear to have two strategies; its either "it's alright, Jack'll do it", or "let's give them a 15 point head start and then start to play". With injuries, suspensions and international call ups, Wasps can't do much rotation for players that are either knackered or bang out of form. God knows who plays TH next week, as Brookes will have a three week layoff (Wiese will get two I imagine by dint of being new to the league and not cited before), and the other two THs Wasps have (if you count Toomaga Allen as a tighthead, and there are serious considerations that we shouldn't) are injured. We've already taken half of the Cornish Pirates it seems as emergency cover, why not go for one of theirs?

That two week break when the Euros were cancelled has been devastating for Wasps, they still look like they're on holiday.

[Beasties]

Of the three Liebenberg was the most "unfortunate" but still no excuse the way things are being reffed now.

West got taken out at a ruck early on before the Wiese incident, which should've been looked at. Wasps complained to the ref about something but the officials hadn't seen it so didn't check, I'm guessing it was this incident. It may have even been Wiese, somebody clotheslined him out of the breakdown. Neck contact rather than head but pretty unsavoury nonetheless.

[FKAS]

Of the three Liebenberg was the most "unfortunate" but still no excuse the way things are being reffed now.

West got taken out at a ruck early on before the Wiese incident, which should've been looked at. Wasps complained to the ref about something but the officials hadn't seen it so didn't check, I'm guessing it was this incident. It may have even been Wiese, somebody clotheslined him out of the breakdown. Neck contact rather than head but pretty unsavoury nontheless.

TMO reviewed it at the time and it was a crocodile roll on the body. I remember because I was annoyed at the time Tigers weren't given a penalty because he was off his feet. Given the Willis incident the prior weekend I understand why the Wasps players were unhappy. Refs reviewing on request is wrong however.

Liebenburg was going forward, not paying any attention to where Bassett was. It was dozy, dangerous play.

Looked a straight red to me, as did the other two.

By going forward so you mean walking backwards looking at the ball that was coming down pretty much on top of him but for the flying Bassett? It's a bit dozy but it's an innocent mistake, since when do we give red cards for innocent mistakes? The first two red cards are very reckless from players that can see the incident clearly in front of them and chose to act the way they do. The third is a tired forward who gets surprised by a winger fresh of the bench and blindsided. I was generally the winger in those situations and if cards had been given out like that in the Leicestershire leagues we'd have won a lot more games because the opposition would have been playing with less players.

These are interesting views of events. Liebenberg clearly moves forward. Bassett had been on from the start. Who doesn't jump to contest kick offs? If your argument is that Brookes got himself in a lazy position and should be punished for it, then surely that extends to Liebenberg too?

Nope Brookes is in the same boat as Weise for me. Tucked arm shoulder to the head dangerous play whether lazy or reckless or whatever. Absolutely no place for it. In both cases Weise and Brookes create the circumstance for the foul play.

Liebenburg doesn't create the circumstance it's an accidental coming together. Had Liebenburg not been blindsided it's a red card all day but when the player comes from behind you the opposite side from the flight of the ball I think mitigation down to yellow was warranted.

[Beasties]

Of the three Liebenberg was the most "unfortunate" but still no excuse the way things are being reffed now.

West got taken out at a ruck early on before the Wiese incident, which should've been looked at. Wasps complained to the ref about something but the officials hadn't seen it so didn't check, I'm guessing it was this incident. It may have even been Wiese, somebody clotheslined him out of the breakdown. Neck contact rather than head but pretty unsavoury nontheless.

TMO reviewed it at the time and it was a crocodile roll on the body. I remember because I was annoyed at the time Tigers weren't given a penalty because he was off his feet. Given the Willis incident the prior weekend I understand why the Wasps players were unhappy. Refs reviewing on request is wrong however.

By going forward so you mean walking backwards looking at the ball that was coming down pretty much on top of him but for the flying Bassett? It's a bit dozy but it's an innocent mistake, since when do we give red cards for innocent mistakes? The first two red cards are very reckless from players that can see the incident clearly in front of them and chose to act the way they do. The third is a tired forward who gets surprised by a winger fresh of the bench and blindsided. I was generally the winger in those situations and if cards had been given out like that in the Leicestershire leagues we'd have won a lot more games because the opposition would have been playing with less players.

These are interesting views of events. Liebenberg clearly moves forward. Bassett had been on from the start. Who doesn't jump to contest kick offs? If your argument is that Brookes got himself in a lazy position and should be punished for it, then surely that extends to Liebenberg too?

Nope Brookes is in the same boat as Weise for me. Tucked arm shoulder to the head dangerous play whether lazy or reckless or whatever. Absolutely no place for it. In both cases Weise and Brookes create the circumstance for the foul play.

Liebenburg doesn't create the circumstance it's an accidental coming together. Had Liebenburg not been blindsided it's a red card all day but when the player comes from behind you the opposite side from the flight of the ball I think mitigation down to yellow was warranted.

I don't think we're talking about the same incident re West. There was no crocodile roll, just an arm across the throat.

[Puja]

Liebenburg was going forward, not paying any attention to where Bassett was. It was dozy, dangerous play.

Looked a straight red to me, as did the other two.

By going forward so you mean walking backwards looking at the ball that was coming down pretty much on top of him but for the flying Bassett? It's a bit dozy but it's an innocent mistake, since when do we give red cards for innocent mistakes? The first two red cards are very reckless from players that can see the incident clearly in front of them and chose to act the way they do. The third is a tired forward who gets surprised by a winger fresh of the bench and blindsided. I was generally the winger in those situations and if cards had been given out like that in the Leicestershire leagues we'd have won a lot more games because the opposition would have been playing with less players.

I think you need to watch the incident again - Liebenberg is clearly running forwards. He is blindsided, but it is clearly established that it's the man on the ground's responsibility to be aware of players jumping and Bassett's leap isn't reckless in the slightest, but a genuine attempt to catch the ball.

I can't believe anyone is defending the Brookes red card. It's dropping the shoulder with force into someone's head - how would that not be a red card? The argument of "oh, he can't make a legal tackle because of the other tackler" is utter mince - if you can't make a legal tackle because of the positioning of other players, then the answer is not "Make an illegal and dangerous tackle as hard as you can", it is to not make any tackle.

"I couldn't make a legal tackle, so I had no choice but to make an illegal one." Beggars belief that anyone's even considering that as an excuse.

Feels odd to be disappointed by a Leicester win, but I agree that we absolutely should have got the bonus point. Kicking for goal, not once but twice, when we were 19-3 up, in complete control, and with a dominant maul was absurd, especially given Henry was clearly having an off day with the boot.

Puja

[FKAS]

Of the three Liebenberg was the most "unfortunate" but still no excuse the way things are being reffed now.

West got taken out at a ruck early on before the Wiese incident, which should've been looked at. Wasps complained to the ref about something but the officials hadn't seen it so didn't check, I'm guessing it was this incident. It may have even been Wiese, somebody clotheslined him out of the breakdown. Neck contact rather than head but pretty unsavoury nontheless.

TMO reviewed it at the time and it was a crocodile roll on the body. I remember because I was annoyed at the time Tigers weren't given a penalty because he was off his feet. Given the Willis incident the prior weekend I understand why the Wasps players were unhappy. Refs reviewing on request is wrong however.

These are interesting views of events. Liebenberg clearly moves forward. Bassett had been on from the start. Who doesn't jump to contest kick offs? If your argument is that Brookes got himself in a lazy position and should be punished for it, then surely that extends to Liebenberg too?

Nope Brookes is in the same boat as Weise for me. Tucked arm shoulder to the head dangerous play whether lazy or reckless or whatever. Absolutely no place for it. In both cases Weise and Brookes create the circumstance for the foul play.

Liebenburg doesn't create the circumstance it's an accidental coming together. Had Liebenburg not been blindsided it's a red card all day but when the player comes from behind you the opposite side from the flight of the ball I think mitigation down to yellow was warranted.

I don't think we're talking about the same incident re West. There was no crocodile roll, just an arm across the throat.

I only saw it in real time so there could have been an arm around the throat but I didn't see it at the time. The TMO could be heard to say nothing obvious and she wasn't one for overlooking things that could be foul play so I assume there won't be a citing for that.

Puja agree, very much disappointed by the pointing for the posts when we had a good lead and a maul that had Wasps on the ropes. Don't know what was up with Henry's kicking today, it has been windy but he's normally very good even in iffy conditions. At least he seemed to be running the backline a lot better this week.

[Beasties]

The Leics pack looked a bit like a proper Leics pack today.

[Beasties]

Of the three Liebenberg was the most "unfortunate" but still no excuse the way things are being reffed now.

West got taken out at a ruck early on before the Wiese incident, which should've been looked at. Wasps complained to the ref about something but the officials hadn't seen it so didn't check, I'm guessing it was this incident. It may have even been Wiese, somebody clotheslined him out of the breakdown. Neck contact rather than head but pretty unsavoury nontheless.

TMO reviewed it at the time and it was a crocodile roll on the body. I remember because I was annoyed at the time Tigers weren't given a penalty because he was off his feet. Given the Willis incident the prior weekend I understand why the Wasps players were unhappy. Refs reviewing on request is wrong however.

These are interesting views of events. Liebenberg clearly moves forward. Bassett had been on from the start. Who doesn't jump to contest kick offs? If your argument is that Brookes got himself in a lazy position and should be punished for it, then surely that extends to Liebenberg too?

Nope Brookes is in the same boat as Weise for me. Tucked arm shoulder to the head dangerous play whether lazy or reckless or whatever. Absolutely no place for it. In both cases Weise and Brookes create the circumstance for the foul play.

Liebenburg doesn't create the circumstance it's an accidental coming together. Had Liebenburg not been blindsided it's a red card all day but when the player comes from behind you the opposite side from the flight of the ball I think mitigation down to yellow was warranted.

I don't think we're talking about the same incident re West. There was no crocodile roll, just an arm across the throat.

Apols, I've looked at it again and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was at the time.

[Puja]

TMO reviewed it at the time and it was a crocodile roll on the body. I remember because I was annoyed at the time Tigers weren't given a penalty because he was off his feet. Given the Willis incident the prior weekend I understand why the Wasps players were unhappy. Refs reviewing on request is wrong however.



Nope Brookes is in the same boat as Weise for me. Tucked arm shoulder to the head dangerous play whether lazy or reckless or whatever. Absolutely no place for it. In both cases Weise and Brookes create the circumstance for the foul play.

Liebenburg doesn't create the circumstance it's an accidental coming together. Had Liebenburg not been blindsided it's a red card all day but when the player comes from behind you the opposite side from the flight of the ball I think mitigation down to yellow was warranted.

I don't think we're talking about the same incident re West. There was no crocodile roll, just an arm across the throat.

Apols, I've looked at it again and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was at the time.

Full marks - more people on the internet should feel comfortable saying that.

Puja

[FKAS]

TMO reviewed it at the time and it was a crocodile roll on the body. I remember because I was annoyed at the time Tigers weren't given a penalty because he was off his feet. Given the Willis incident the prior weekend I understand why the Wasps players were unhappy. Refs reviewing on request is wrong however.



Nope Brookes is in the same boat as Weise for me. Tucked arm shoulder to the head dangerous play whether lazy or reckless or whatever. Absolutely no place for it. In both cases Weise and Brookes create the circumstance for the foul play.

Liebenburg doesn't create the circumstance it's an accidental coming together. Had Liebenburg not been blindsided it's a red card all day but when the player comes from behind you the opposite side from the flight of the ball I think mitigation down to yellow was warranted.

I don't think we're talking about the same incident re West. There was no crocodile roll, just an arm across the throat.

Apols, I've looked at it again and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was at the time.

I thought at the time it didn't look to bad but there was no replay so you can never be sure and Shields was insistent about wanting a review. Glad it's nothing we'll be missing a few next week as is...

I think there's a mild bit of concern on the offy over a Tom Youngs clear out in the second half they didn't show a replay of either. CMK is shouting at I think Cruse to release because he's off his feet and Tom Youngs comes in from a few metres out and smashes him off. Given how low to the ground Cruse was I wouldn't be surprised if there was some head contact.

[twitchy]

[FKAS]

You could hear CMK calling don't latch close to the line a couple of times and when Tigers were eying up a quick tap penalty. Thanks for sharing that Tweet.

That last screen shot is pretty damning for Brookes, look how high he is going into contact, no attempt at a legal tackle. That's awful technique. Either go low to the exposed legs or get hands on jersey and pull him down in front of you to try and ensure a position from which to jackle. If players are latching and you can bring down the ball carrier then you can sometimes remove the support players from protecting the ruck because they latched and are on the floor already or get a pen off the ref because the latchers are judged to be sealing off.

[Beasties]

I don't think we're talking about the same incident re West. There was no crocodile roll, just an arm across the throat.

Apols, I've looked at it again and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was at the time.

I thought at the time it didn't look to bad but there was no replay so you can never be sure and Shields was insistent about wanting a review. Glad it's nothing we'll be missing a few next week as is...

I think there's a mild bit of concern on the offy over a Tom Youngs clear out in the second half they didn't show a replay of either. CMK is shouting at I think Cruse to release because he's off his feet and Tom Youngs comes in from a few metres out and smashes him off. Given how low to the ground Cruse was I wouldn't be surprised if there was some head contact.

Yeah the Tom Youngs one was certainly at the robust end of the scale. It wasn't quite as bad as those previously but could easily have been reviewed. Prob get 20 of those a game though so hey ho. There's no getting away from the fact that Wasps were rubbish though.

[morepork]

I’m not saying the Brookes’ red was necessarily the wrong decision, but you do see high/head shots like that quite a few times from ruck & tackle situation in every game. It was really only the Lavinini reaction that highlighted it.

That's probably the point of cracking down on it, no?

I’d suggest that the laws and framework were, by and large, put in place to deal with much more egregious incidents than that Brookes’ tackle. I don’t think you can reasonably hope to eliminate all head contact in rugby, so the corollary is that you can’t sanction every piece of head contact during a game. If you do you either render it unplayable, unwatchable or both. Imo.

The Brookes tackle was egregious according to medical science. These are the data and whilst you cant sanction every piece of contact, you can certainly impose regulation that minimises it. Again,the data will bear this out.

[FKAS]

That's probably the point of cracking down on it, no?

I’d suggest that the laws and framework were, by and large, put in place to deal with much more egregious incidents than that Brookes’ tackle. I don’t think you can reasonably hope to eliminate all head contact in rugby, so the corollary is that you can’t sanction every piece of head contact during a game. If you do you either render it unplayable, unwatchable or both. Imo.

The Brookes tackle was egregious according to medical science. These are the data and whilst you cant sanction every piece of contact, you can certainly impose regulation that minimises it. Again,the data will bear this out.

I think part of the problem is that we keep calling what Brookes did a tackle. It's not it's a shoulder charge.

[Oakboy]

There was a remark in the commentary on Friday night to the effect that we don't see tip tackles any more after quite a few brought red cards. It was claimed that red cards for elbow/shoulder to the head were necessary to get players and coaches to understand the initiative and comply.

That might have been a pertinent statement of fact but it is one hell of a condemnation of the intelligence of rugby professionals, players and coaches.

[Puja]

There was a remark in the commentary on Friday night to the effect that we don't see tip tackles any more after quite a few brought red cards. It was claimed that red cards for elbow/shoulder to the head were necessary to get players and coaches to understand the initiative and comply.

That might have been a pertinent statement of fact but it is one hell of a condemnation of the intelligence of rugby professionals, players and coaches.

I think it's a condemnation of the minerals of referees and the IRB - the reason tip tackles have mostly gone out of the game is because refs stuck to their guns and sides realised that they actually meant it this time. The reason scrums are still fed in squint and box kickers still take 7-9 seconds after Use It is because refs bottled it after a few games of being tough.

It's not about getting them to understand the intitiative - it's about convincing them that the initiative is here to stay, no matter how much furore is raised about red card ruining the game. Perhaps this weekend will be the starting point of that.

Puja

[FKAS]

From the red cards all three pleaded guilty, as they all want the maximum level of leniency I suppose.

Weise - 6 weeks with 33% mitigation down to 4 as he has some priors.
Brookes - 6 weeks with 50% mitigation down to 3 weeks.

Those were judged mid level offences.

Liebenburg - 4 weeks with 50% mitigation down to 2 weeks as this was low end.

I think Liebenburg's was as expected. Weise lucky to get the 33% really. Brookes yeah as expected.