Gregor: Yes or no?

[Scottish Caley Fan]

I have seen a couple of Tweets and posts on Facebook questioning whether Gregor Townsend is the right man to lead Scotland so I thought I'd try and gauge opinion on here .

1) Are you still backing Gregor Townsend and if so why?
2) If the answer to question 1 is no then, why and who would you replace him with?

I am new to Rugby as I think I have said on this forum before so I can't really comment on his selection but what I can say is, I personally DO still back him and will do up until after the next world cup (review his position then, not before) as I admire the way he wants us to play and tbh, his record isn't as bad as so called fans make out.

I do, however, sometimes question some of his decisions after squad or match day announcements but I really don't think that is a valid excuse to call for his sacking.

[Big D]

I have seen a couple of Tweets and posts on Facebook questioning whether Gregor Townsend is the right man to lead Scotland so I thought I'd try and gauge opinion on here .

1) Are you still backing Gregor Townsend and if so why?
2) If the answer to question 1 is no then, why and who would you replace him with?

I am new to Rugby as I think I have said on this forum before so I can't really comment on his selection but what I can say is, I personally DO still back him and will do up until after the next world cup (review his position then, not before) as I admire the way he wants us to play and tbh, his record isn't as bad as so called fans make out.

I do, however, sometimes question some of his decisions after squad or match day announcements but I really don't think that is a valid excuse to call for his sacking.

I'd keep him but some of his players are making life hard for him.

[whatisthejava]

I think yes

until the next RWC,

Alot is going well, we scored 3 tries against a team known for their defence and should have drawn.

When was the last time Scotland got a try like Watsons against the Irish ?
Hogg has really grown into captaincy and the way he talked to Poite was superb

Alot os going badly, but lineouts fuck up, cant blame Turner for everything because the restarts were a shit stain also.

Question marks over Townsend should really be

Why did you drop Lang ? Why did you pick Gilchrist whos club form has been mince ?
Why didn't you hook Turner off earlier when it was clear he was struggling ?

Questions over hoggy ?
Why didn't you ask Poite to review the ruck that led to Cummings injury, its a flying shoulder and is a yellow any day of the week




For me, Toony needs to show a real ruthless edge, Fagerson cost us against Wales and Price cost us against Ireland, a scrum half needs to box kick the ball out every time, and he is far to fucking cavalier about his skill set, a lot of scrum half don't get charged down because they understand the importance of being protected. Price doesn't,

Price is a 70-75% player, never got a MOTM as far as I can remember but when he fucks up he fucks up big. He needs to be dropped because Stelle deserves a reward for packing down at 7, he was also the first man to arrive when Price fucked up

[septic 9]

100% back him, right through until 2023

interesting how, even on here, the first reaction of so many is to blame our best talents based on hyperbolic descriptions of how they play, and assume that we are the only union whose players may make the odd error.

We have been behind the curve for 20 years. There are reasons for that, and they have bugger all to do with Toonie or Russell or Price or Fagerson or Hogg - all of whom have been slated over the last year. These guys are not the problem, the problem is that we don't have 23 of that calibre or even close.

Get real folks

[Big D]

100% back him, right through until 2023

interesting how, even on here, the first reaction of so many is to blame our best talents based on hyperbolic descriptions of how they play, and assume that we are the only union whose players may make the odd error.

We have been behind the curve for 20 years. There are reasons for that, and they have bugger all to do with Toonie or Russell or Price or Fagerson or Hogg - all of whom have been slated over the last year. These guys are not the problem, the problem is that we don't have 23 of that calibre or even close.

Get real folks

I agree with the players you name check bar Price. The others, at their best, are world class or approaching world class where as Price isn't. He is better than the alternatives but that doesn't put any higher class than being the best available player.

We were a Jonny Hill flying off his feet away from being in a very sticky position due to a Price charge down. Another followed in that game. In the next game he kicks the ball away when trailing by 3 not far out of penalty range. Yesterday he gets a kick charged down that costs us and again kicks the ball away when trailing with <3min on the clock. Especially after the England game he should be making sure everyone is in place when box kicking.

Key players are letting GT down in key moments. Price shouldn't be dropped, my reaction after watching the game posted in the other thread was just a post match reaction, but if he continues to make the same stupid errors it is easy to be frustrated with him.

[stevedog1980]

Gregor to stay, nobody else I could see making a better job if it at the moment but don't understand 1 or 2 of the choices on the bench. Gilchrist over Skinner was a strange one for example.

At this rate Price needs to be routinely subbed off with 10 minutes to go!! His decision making at the tail end of each of these games has been horrendous.

Against Wales, chasing a penalty to win that choice to box kick drove me nuts. Fair enough if we are camped on our own 22 and need to roll the dice to have any chance but we were in penalty range and kicking really didn't give us any advantage. Same thing yesterday, what was the box kick going to achieve? We had the lead, we had the ball, we just had to knock as much off that clock as we could. If needed, give it to Hogg and let him smash it long. He'd have everyone onside less than a second later anyway, I really don't see what the thinking was. Reminds me a lot of Laidlaw to be honest with you, in the latter stages of his international career he was so conditioned to box kicking that he rarely thought about any other option.

[septic 9]

At this rate Price needs to be routinely subbed off with 10 minutes to go!! His decision making at the tail end of each of these games has been horrendous. .

that will be the Ali Price who brilliantly managed the close out of england late in the game?

Amazing what short memories folk have

[septic 9]

I agree with the players you name check bar Price. The others, at their best, are world class or approaching world class where as Price isn't. He is better than the alternatives but that doesn't put any higher class than being the best available player.

We were a Jonny Hill flying off his feet away from being in a very sticky position due to a Price charge down. Another followed in that game. In the next game he kicks the ball away when trailing by 3 not far out of penalty range. Yesterday he gets a kick charged down that costs us and again kicks the ball away when trailing with <3min on the clock. Especially after the England game he should be making sure everyone is in place when box kicking.

Key players are letting GT down in key moments. Price shouldn't be dropped, my reaction after watching the game posted in the other thread was just a post match reaction, but if he continues to make the same stupid errors it is easy to be frustrated with him.

he isn't the generation talent like the others, that's fair comment. He has been very good for us though.
The charge downs are an issue of course, but not all down to Price. Against england, we had no guard (or might have been on wrong side of ruck for a left footed kicker. Can argue Price should have marshalled a player there (and been timed out maybe) but this is a fundamental for players and coaches. Its as if we have trained for a right footed scrum half and only set up for one.
Yesterday, the late charge down was much of the same, except we had a guard - Bhatti - who was too wide to be effective and had gone to sleep.

On this theme, same with the lineout. There were a few issues and its far far too easy to blame Turner. Barclay's comments are spot on. The calls did not change after we lost a couple, not down to Turner, Cummings calls the lineout. No variations (we lack a top 3rd jumper) but the split line and 9 running in a la Dunbar a few years back, the fast throw to 1, and we did not get in the refs ear about Ireland closing the gap - ironic that the only pen was against Cummings for jumping across, which he would not have needed to had the ball been anywhere close to straight. Then I think we had a few lazy lifts early on, see this before from Edinburgh props, but we were not throwing up Toolis yesterday.
Once we had lost 2 or 3, Turner is under huge pressure, and with no banker ball (I mean one every team has and reverts to under pressure, usually flat to 2) - game lost there

[stevedog1980]

At this rate Price needs to be routinely subbed off with 10 minutes to go!! His decision making at the tail end of each of these games has been horrendous. .

that will be the Ali Price who brilliantly managed the close out of england late in the game?

Amazing what short memories folk have

I'll have to go back and watch the tail end of that game again but I will defer to your knowledge. I just don't understand what he's looking to achieve with the box kicks in back to back games for no reason. I understand it seems to be a default pressure relief tactic, but you have to keep in mind where you are in the game before deploying it

[Big D]

I agree with the players you name check bar Price. The others, at their best, are world class or approaching world class where as Price isn't. He is better than the alternatives but that doesn't put any higher class than being the best available player.

We were a Jonny Hill flying off his feet away from being in a very sticky position due to a Price charge down. Another followed in that game. In the next game he kicks the ball away when trailing by 3 not far out of penalty range. Yesterday he gets a kick charged down that costs us and again kicks the ball away when trailing with <3min on the clock. Especially after the England game he should be making sure everyone is in place when box kicking.

Key players are letting GT down in key moments. Price shouldn't be dropped, my reaction after watching the game posted in the other thread was just a post match reaction, but if he continues to make the same stupid errors it is easy to be frustrated with him.

he isn't the generation talent like the others, that's fair comment. He has been very good for us though.
The charge downs are an issue of course, but not all down to Price. Against england, we had no guard (or might have been on wrong side of ruck for a left footed kicker. Can argue Price should have marshalled a player there (and been timed out maybe) but this is a fundamental for players and coaches. Its as if we have trained for a right footed scrum half and only set up for one.
Yesterday, the late charge down was much of the same, except we had a guard - Bhatti - who was too wide to be effective and had gone to sleep.

On this theme, same with the lineout. There were a few issues and its far far too easy to blame Turner. Barclay's comments are spot on. The calls did not change after we lost a couple, not down to Turner, Cummings calls the lineout. No variations (we lack a top 3rd jumper) but the split line and 9 running in a la Dunbar a few years back, the fast throw to 1, and we did not get in the refs ear about Ireland closing the gap - ironic that the only pen was against Cummings for jumping across, which he would not have needed to had the ball been anywhere close to straight. Then I think we had a few lazy lifts early on, see this before from Edinburgh props, but we were not throwing up Toolis yesterday.
Once we had lost 2 or 3, Turner is under huge pressure, and with no banker ball (I mean one every team has and reverts to under pressure, usually flat to 2) - game lost there

The charge downs aren't all down to Price, but yesterday particularly he could have waited and told Bhatti to move. Price is a 35cap international and a seasoned pro and that is a relatively basic thing. The decision to kick that one was right, but if the guard isn't in place Price should know that and sort it or change plans. That is the key difference to the line outs, Turner can't change what the others do.

I think it was this MB that I said Dalziel needs to take a long hard look at this lesson. There was zero contingency planning for a game we knew Ireland were very strong in the line out. It is basic stuff. I know teams in Caley 1 at grass root level who make plans for other teams set piece so it is bizarre we weren't ready for that. Although I do think a few of Turners throws wouldn't have been caught had the jumpers done their bit.

Back on Price for a second. I think this is where international coaching is difficult. He is making the same mistakes in fairly short order but really there is no alternative so GT has little option but to play him and hope he sorts it out.

[Big D]

At this rate Price needs to be routinely subbed off with 10 minutes to go!! His decision making at the tail end of each of these games has been horrendous. .

that will be the Ali Price who brilliantly managed the close out of england late in the game?

Amazing what short memories folk have

I'll have to go back and watch the tail end of that game again but I will defer to your knowledge. I just don't understand what he's looking to achieve with the box kicks in back to back games for no reason. I understand it seems to be a default pressure relief tactic, but you have to keep in mind where you are in the game before deploying it

The box kick at the kick off was the right call. Senior half back partner taking the responsibility but the execution was poor by all involved.

[stevedog1980]

he isn't the generation talent like the others, that's fair comment. He has been very good for us though.
The charge downs are an issue of course, but not all down to Price. Against england, we had no guard (or might have been on wrong side of ruck for a left footed kicker. Can argue Price should have marshalled a player there (and been timed out maybe) but this is a fundamental for players and coaches. Its as if we have trained for a right footed scrum half and only set up for one.
Yesterday, the late charge down was much of the same, except we had a guard - Bhatti - who was too wide to be effective and had gone to sleep.

On this theme, same with the lineout. There were a few issues and its far far too easy to blame Turner. Barclay's comments are spot on. The calls did not change after we lost a couple, not down to Turner, Cummings calls the lineout. No variations (we lack a top 3rd jumper) but the split line and 9 running in a la Dunbar a few years back, the fast throw to 1, and we did not get in the refs ear about Ireland closing the gap - ironic that the only pen was against Cummings for jumping across, which he would not have needed to had the ball been anywhere close to straight. Then I think we had a few lazy lifts early on, see this before from Edinburgh props, but we were not throwing up Toolis yesterday.
Once we had lost 2 or 3, Turner is under huge pressure, and with no banker ball (I mean one every team has and reverts to under pressure, usually flat to 2) - game lost there

I have watched the charge down again and you're right, as much about setup as it was about execution. Bhatti is hanging way too wide and there was no communication with Berghan at the back of the ruck. Berghan and Bhatti do nothing to help Price but at no point does he look to see what the Irish defence is doing. There were a number of people that could have stopped that from happening but Price needs to be vocal enough to get them into position or change his option. I appreciate this is all done within a split second and is much easier to say than to do. But, he should have been aware of the Irish fringe defence before taking the kick. I think if he had looked, he may well have decided to give Watson the crash ball on the blind side or throw wide out to Hogg rather than committing to a very contestable box kick.

Couldn't agree more about the lineout, it's not an individual failing either. Turner didn't have his best day but unless he's just throwing squint all over the place it's very unfair to put all the blame on him. 3rd option in the back row was definitely needed. I'd like to see the emergence of the tap and go again, I've been calling for it for a while, I've not really understood why putting it into touch is always the favoured option. I understand you can wrap more players up in the maul etc. but just set up for a maul off the tap and go. If anything, I think that's better, you're bringing momentum into it from the ball carrier back and allowing the referee to hold on their call on the first stoppage.

[stevedog1980]

Am I the only one that sees the Irish contest as being unfair then? Henderson clearly stops Price from having any chance of releasing the ball while making no initial effort to get his hands on it. I thought that these days they had to have their hands on the ball only rather than ahead of it?

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I think he is learning on the job to some extent, and that has been costly at points, but there are big positives in this latest coaching reshuffle and we need to give it more time. That's before you even ask the question of who would replace him.

Hard for a coach to account for the vast array of silly on-field errors yesterday. It wasn't just one area that we made mistakes. Yes it would have been great to have known, reliable alternatives at 2 and 9, but we didn't have that. Hard to really say where the responsibility sits for the collective accuracy of the team over 80 minutes.

I have plenty of concerns about Townsend, and he does throw in quite a few odd selections, but he's still essentially working with Glasgow + Edinburgh and a few top quality guys.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm sure I could go back and pick out a dozen decisions from the ref that I disagree with, but there's no point trying to rely on a game happening where the ref is 100% correct all the time. I do feel like a lot of questionable decisions go against us, but you have to wonder why that is. I feel a side like Ireland know they can frustrate and bully us, and make us play their horrible, horrible version of rugby.

[Ally]

It's a yes through to 2023 for me: defeats like that and the Wales one, are hard to take, but it doesn't mean the wheels have come off. And whilst we will probably finish in 5th place now, I certainly think the team has improved on last year: the improvements just haven't been enough to consistently win these tight games in the 6N

It's easy to think that changing the coach is a quick fix: sometimes it can make a big difference quickly (Eddie, Gatland, Galthie), but often a change in coach alone doesn't (Italy replace their coach pretty much every world cup cycle and they've not won a 6N game for 6 years). Typically, the reasons to get rid of your coach tend to be:
-they've fallen out with the players/lost the changing room (e.g. Matt Williams)
-run out of ideas on how to take the team forward (e.g. Frank Hadden)
-performances have fallen into a long-term rut and the coach can't turn the tide (e.g. Andy Robinson)

I don't think what's happened against Wales and Ireland fall into those camps. I'm sure there are areas where the preparation/tactics haven't been right (e.g. the lineout v Ireland), and Gregor does have some idiosyncrasies as a selector, but so does every coach - but I don't feel that replacing Gregor just now would be an intervention that would bring a major impact. The truth is, that our squad can beat anyone on it's day, but is not at a standard yet where it can string 5 of those performances together.

He's shown that he can listen, reflect on where his shortcomings are, and evolve: and we shouldn't forget that yes, we've won more 6N games in recent years, but we've also had some horror stories (Calcutta Cup 2017, Wales 2018): so far we've had one dominant victory, a very narrow loss, and a narrow loss where we got back into the game despite playing badly. I'd say that's improvement

[whatisthejava]

Price takes alot on and unfortunatly his style is prone to box kicks, but for that reason he needs to marshal his forwards better

[septic 9]

Price takes alot on and unfortunatly his style is prone to box kicks, but for that reason he needs to marshal his forwards better

don't disagree, but he shouldn't need to marshall them, this is basic stuff for the pack, or any back in that position. Both yesterday and against england, guard was on the wrong side at some rucks

I also remember, think last season after refs were told to clamp down on 9s taking to much time, Price being FK's for delaying. That will have stuck with him and affect how much marshalling he thinks he has time for. I'm not sure another international scrum half was done for the same, which would tell another story

[switchskier]

Couldn't work out at all what Bhatti was doing for the charge down. Was neither one thing nor t'other. But that doesn't mean that some of Prices kicking wasn't poorly directed yesterday. He can play better but I think we have to be realistic about his ceiling and it's not unreasonable to hope that a better option emerges.

[Mikey Brown]

Couldn't work out at all what Bhatti was doing for the charge down. Was neither one thing nor t'other. But that doesn't mean that some of Prices kicking wasn't poorly directed yesterday. He can play better but I think we have to be realistic about his ceiling and it's not unreasonable to hope that a better option emerges.

Berghan is standing around the guard position and Bhatti seems to step back just as Berghan joins the ruck to make it longer rather than standing at guard, then Bhatti doesn’t really end up in a position to affect play at all. Seemed like he was half thinking about getting up quickly on the chase for some reason. Poor stuff.

[morepork]

If you lose to Italy will you self-harm?

[switchskier]

If you lose to Italy will you self-harm?

Losing to Italy atm pretty much is self-harming.

[Cameo]

Pretty much agree with most of what's been said here. There was an argument for getting rid of Townsend after the World Cup if there was a good alternative available.

The year and a half since then hasn't been an unbridled success but he has clearly made a lot of progress in addressing the most glaring issues from before the World Cup (flakiness and lack of defence) and during the World Cup (loss of all attacking ability).

These losses are gutting and there is every chance Scotland have blown the best chance they will get for a 6N in this period, but every team is out there to win and the final step to winning these big games consistently is the hardest.

[Donny osmond]

Yes for GT. He's hamstrung by many different realities in Scottish rugby and as BigD says, he's being let down by the players rather than the other way around.

Sent from my CPH1951 using Tapatalk

[switchskier]

In response to the original question - Toonie is probably the best option available and he has had success with some of these players before, so I'd stick with him for now. However that might change if we lose to Italy and even a narrow win will start the murmurings.