We need to talk about Eddie...

[Banquo]

The real mystery to me remains discipline, which sure as hell cost us in the 6N. I can't see any link between trying to play differently (and we had at least two different attacking plans between autumn and 6N) and the continual back to back streams of penalties- especially as it was almost always defensive plays and no real benefit being gained. Somewhere between Eddie and captaincy/leaders there is responsibility there. I'd also say our fitness wasn't as good at should have been, accepting some mitigation on a weird season.

[Raggs]

The real mystery to me remains discipline, which sure as hell cost us in the 6N. I can't see any link between trying to play differently (and we had at least two different attacking plans between autumn and 6N) and the continual back to back streams of penalties- especially as it was almost always defensive plays and no real benefit being gained. Somewhere between Eddie and captaincy/leaders there is responsibility there. I'd also say our fitness wasn't as good at should have been, accepting some mitigation on a weird season.

That's where I'm at too. I could understand if we got turned over often at the breakdown, since supporting such a fast game has got to be tough, but it wasn't that, we'd lose possession, no issue, and then just grant them 3 pens in a row for the chance to score. Nothing to do with our attack.

[Banquo]

The real mystery to me remains discipline, which sure as hell cost us in the 6N. I can't see any link between trying to play differently (and we had at least two different attacking plans between autumn and 6N) and the continual back to back streams of penalties- especially as it was almost always defensive plays and no real benefit being gained. Somewhere between Eddie and captaincy/leaders there is responsibility there. I'd also say our fitness wasn't as good at should have been, accepting some mitigation on a weird season.

That's where I'm at too. I could understand if we got turned over often at the breakdown, since supporting such a fast game has got to be tough, but it wasn't that, we'd lose possession, no issue, and then just grant them 3 pens in a row for the chance to score. Nothing to do with our attack.

yup. Mind, it may well have been our discipline was as poor in the autumn, just that it got lost amongst the winning.

[Raggs]

The real mystery to me remains discipline, which sure as hell cost us in the 6N. I can't see any link between trying to play differently (and we had at least two different attacking plans between autumn and 6N) and the continual back to back streams of penalties- especially as it was almost always defensive plays and no real benefit being gained. Somewhere between Eddie and captaincy/leaders there is responsibility there. I'd also say our fitness wasn't as good at should have been, accepting some mitigation on a weird season.

That's where I'm at too. I could understand if we got turned over often at the breakdown, since supporting such a fast game has got to be tough, but it wasn't that, we'd lose possession, no issue, and then just grant them 3 pens in a row for the chance to score. Nothing to do with our attack.

yup. Mind, it may well have been our discipline was as poor in the autumn, just that it got lost amongst the winning.

I think we gave away a fair few dumb penalties then too, but can't be sure. It struck me more as a daft individual, rather than multiple individuals then? Could be misremembering though.

[Banquo]

That's where I'm at too. I could understand if we got turned over often at the breakdown, since supporting such a fast game has got to be tough, but it wasn't that, we'd lose possession, no issue, and then just grant them 3 pens in a row for the chance to score. Nothing to do with our attack.

yup. Mind, it may well have been our discipline was as poor in the autumn, just that it got lost amongst the winning.

I think we gave away a fair few dumb penalties then too, but can't be sure. It struck me more as a daft individual, rather than multiple individuals then? Could be misremembering though.

Had a quick look back, and we were in double digits in a couple of games, like you though, think it was a different problem.

[Digby]

The real mystery to me remains discipline, which sure as hell cost us in the 6N. I can't see any link between trying to play differently (and we had at least two different attacking plans between autumn and 6N) and the continual back to back streams of penalties- especially as it was almost always defensive plays and no real benefit being gained. Somewhere between Eddie and captaincy/leaders there is responsibility there. I'd also say our fitness wasn't as good at should have been, accepting some mitigation on a weird season.

Do you think we can get fitness levels up to play that rapid work off the ball in attack alongside the rush defence?

Granted that some of our players turned up needing a sports bra didn't help this 6N, but even beyond that I wonder if something doesn't need to give. Ideally we'd get better decision making curtailing some of the work on attack, though that also makes an attack easier to read. In advance I'm expecting more of a blend of the kicking as was and this new found ball in hand approach, the kick chase being much easier to resource aerobically.

But maybe there is scope to push the players on still to even higher fitness levels, but to maintain that too? I wonder even if we could do it what that means for the clubs and how they'd play a part in it

[Oakboy]

How about picking players who, by reason of their shape, are more naturally fit?

[Danno]

So Itoje, Slade, Curry to the front row and Ford to 8? I have no idea what else you're alluding to here.

[Oakboy]

So Itoje, Slade, Curry to the front row and Ford to 8? I have no idea what else you're alluding to here.

Well, one obvious one is Simmonds over Billy V. I think Mako is vulnerable should injury circumstances mean he has to do 80. I look at Ewels and don't see a natural for 80 either. George needs regular top flight play - the lack may have contributed to him being overtaken by LCD perhaps?

No big deal - just a direction to think about if fitness is the key. I find the expectation of an England camp improving fitness as another insult to the clubs and likely to break a few players to make matters worse.

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

Oh come on! Fitness is far more complicated than how big you are! It's far more complicated than how much fat you're carrying too.
Having said that, I think maybe the fitness and discipline were linked innthe 6N. The aerobic fitness needed to play the quick recycle game as we were attempting is ridiculously high. And with partial lockdown/less time with the players etc, maybe we just didn't get up to the levels required. There's then, of course, the knock on effects on decision making, which was the main problem with the pens.

[Banquo]

The real mystery to me remains discipline, which sure as hell cost us in the 6N. I can't see any link between trying to play differently (and we had at least two different attacking plans between autumn and 6N) and the continual back to back streams of penalties- especially as it was almost always defensive plays and no real benefit being gained. Somewhere between Eddie and captaincy/leaders there is responsibility there. I'd also say our fitness wasn't as good at should have been, accepting some mitigation on a weird season.

Do you think we can get fitness levels up to play that rapid work off the ball in attack alongside the rush defence?

Granted that some of our players turned up needing a sports bra didn't help this 6N, but even beyond that I wonder if something doesn't need to give. Ideally we'd get better decision making curtailing some of the work on attack, though that also makes an attack easier to read. In advance I'm expecting more of a blend of the kicking as was and this new found ball in hand approach, the kick chase being much easier to resource aerobically.

But maybe there is scope to push the players on still to even higher fitness levels, but to maintain that too? I wonder even if we could do it what that means for the clubs and how they'd play a part in it

I think you’ve answered your own questions.

[Oakboy]

Oh come on! Fitness is far more complicated than how big you are! It's far more complicated than how much fat you're carrying too.
Having said that, I think maybe the fitness and discipline were linked innthe 6N. The aerobic fitness needed to play the quick recycle game as we were attempting is ridiculously high. And with partial lockdown/less time with the players etc, maybe we just didn't get up to the levels required. There's then, of course, the knock on effects on decision making, which was the main problem with the pens.

Whatever!

[Banquo]

Oh come on! Fitness is far more complicated than how big you are! It's far more complicated than how much fat you're carrying too.
Having said that, I think maybe the fitness and discipline were linked innthe 6N. The aerobic fitness needed to play the quick recycle game as we were attempting is ridiculously high. And with partial lockdown/less time with the players etc, maybe we just didn't get up to the levels required. There's then, of course, the knock on effects on decision making, which was the main problem with the pens.

I don’t agree on the pens tbh. The most glaring penalty strings were early in the games v both Wales and Scotland (albeit with shockers from the subs late on v Wales). I simply can’t explain our stupidity tbh- I agree it was poor ‘decision making’ but can’t put a lot down to being knackered.

On the fitness front, we weren’t prepared for the game we aspired to play I’d suggest-partly rust from a good chunk of the team possibly, but you probably need a long term schedule inked in too....which as Digby alludes to is a challenge.

[Scrumhead]

I agree. A lot of them early in those games weren’t even a result of a great deal of pressure. I can think of at least two occasions where the pressure came from us giving away a dumb penalty in the opposition half and then backing up with another equally dumb one straight after, taking us from their 22 to our own line.

We gifted an unreal amount of territory and points to teams that weren’t really creating anything.

Our defence was solid for the most part. We weren’t really getting broken down that often, we were killing ourselves with 60m territory losses.

[Banquo]

I agree. A lot of them early in those games weren’t even a result of a great deal of pressure. I can think of at least two occasions where the pressure came from us giving away a dumb penalty in the opposition half and then backing up with another equally dumb one straight after, taking us from their 22 to our own line.

We gifted an unreal amount of territory and points to teams that weren’t really creating anything.

Our defence was solid for the most part. We weren’t really getting broken down that often, we were killing ourselves with 60m territory losses.

yep. Though I thought our linespeed was well down in defence, which led to problems esp v Ireland....but that is most likely linked to fitness (driven by the rustiness/new attack combo).

[Raggs]

I didn't do ruck marks on the 6N etc. But every single time I've done ruck marks, Mako has been top of the charts considering position.

[Banquo]

I didn't do ruck marks on the 6N etc. But every single time I've done ruck marks, Mako has been top of the charts considering position.

Mako is a fantastic prop in the loose, and he performed well there imo. He's just done a lot of miles and had a lot of injuries, and occasionally gets undone in the set piece, where he is unorthodox to say the least; I also thought Billy went well in most of the games, unpopular as that might be.

[Banquo]

So Itoje, Slade, Curry to the front row and Ford to 8? I have no idea what else you're alluding to here.

Well, one obvious one is Simmonds over Billy V. I think Mako is vulnerable should injury circumstances mean he has to do 80. I look at Ewels and don't see a natural for 80 either. George needs regular top flight play - the lack may have contributed to him being overtaken by LCD perhaps?

No big deal - just a direction to think about if fitness is the key. I find the expectation of an England camp improving fitness as another insult to the clubs and likely to break a few players to make matters worse.

Say what??? I see it as absolutely the other way round.

[Oakboy]

Conceding loads of penalties is what - a technical issue, an organisational issue, an on-field leadership issue, a fitness issue, an individual issue (i.e. a selection issue)?

OK, I am fanatically anti-Jones (allegedly) but how the hell can it be anyone else's fault than his?

He selects the team and his coaching crew. The training routine is his. He appoints the captain and dictates the strategy and tactics. He sends the messages with the water boys, does the HT team talk and determines the replacement schedule. Etc. Etc.

What part of his responsibility are we (you) trying to unload? The buck stops with him!

[Scrumhead]

There’s a difference between accountability and responsibility.

Eddie is not responsible for the players giving away stupid penalties. Even you must realise that he is not actually telling players to do some of the daft stuff they’ve been guilty of.

On the other hand, he IS accountable as I agree that ‘the buck stops with him’.

It’s not easy to solve though. How do you stop a player from doing something stupid? Sure if it’s a repeat offender, don’t pick them but if it’s your best player you can’t really take that approach.

[Puja]

And also holding him accountable doesn't necessarily mean considering him beyond redemption and abandoning everything to start over. Was it a poor 6N? Yes. Is Jones ultimately responsible for that poor 6N? Also yes. Where we diverge is that I am willing to extend him a little bit of credit on the basis that he's found the answer to problems before and gone from a poor 6N to getting to the final of the RWC while beating the Kiwis on the way, whereas you are seizing on one poor international window as confirmation that we should throw our hands in the air and panic as it's clearly all downhill from here.

Puja

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

And also holding him accountable doesn't necessarily mean considering him beyond redemption and abandoning everything to start over. Was it a poor 6N? Yes. Is Jones ultimately responsible for that poor 6N? Also yes. Where we diverge is that I am willing to extend him a little bit of credit on the basis that he's found the answer to problems before and gone from a poor 6N to getting to the final of the RWC while beating the Kiwis on the way, whereas you are seizing on one poor international window as confirmation that we should throw our hands in the air and panic as it's clearly all downhill from here.

Puja

Yes this. Plus the fact that even though we were in general awful for the majority of the tournament. There were signs of us exploring an expansive, fast paced attacking strategy, which, is what we have all been desperate to see for years and years.

[Oakboy]

There’s a difference between accountability and responsibility.

Eddie is not responsible for the players giving away stupid penalties. Even you must realise that he is not actually telling players to do some of the daft stuff they’ve been guilty of.

On the other hand, he IS accountable as I agree that ‘the buck stops with him’.

It’s not easy to solve though. How do you stop a player from doing something stupid? Sure if it’s a repeat offender, don’t pick them but if it’s your best player you can’t really take that approach.

Oh, I agree but if it is a fitness issue, say, who else can identify it and when? Or, if a player has a tendency to be stupid discipline-wise, try too hard or whatever for country with no such issues for club where does the fault lie?

Two of the guilt-merchants in various ways were Itoje and Farrell. I'd argue that Itoje, in the past, has not been a penalty machine at club level so if he is one at international level what is different? Who put him under pressure, changed his approach or whatever? Was it a recognisable trait in training camp or match-to match?

Farrell has hooligan tendencies and ref-communication problems universally so drop him. Is he the best FH/IC? Jones thinks so, presumably. Many others don't. Etc.

I'm happy to drop all this now. It is not me who keeps reintroducing it but I do (mistakenly??) respond still because I care. Overall, perhaps, the RFU needed Jones to straighten things out after Burt and Johnno initially. But, why oh why, did they extend his contract? Yes, a successor might be hard to identify/appoint. However, are things on a tangibly measurable improvement curve or has Jones shot his bolt? After one of our worst ever 6N performances, I think there can only be one conclusion but the excuses continue to roll.

[Spiffy]

Oh come on! Fitness is far more complicated than how big you are! It's far more complicated than how much fat you're carrying too.
Having said that, I think maybe the fitness and discipline were linked innthe 6N. The aerobic fitness needed to play the quick recycle game as we were attempting is ridiculously high. And with partial lockdown/less time with the players etc, maybe we just didn't get up to the levels required. There's then, of course, the knock on effects on decision making, which was the main problem with the pens.

I don’t agree on the pens tbh. The most glaring penalty strings were early in the games v both Wales and Scotland (albeit with shockers from the subs late on v Wales). I simply can’t explain our stupidity tbh- I agree it was poor ‘decision making’ but can’t put a lot down to being knackered.

On the fitness front, we weren’t prepared for the game we aspired to play I’d suggest-partly rust from a good chunk of the team possibly, but you probably need a long term schedule inked in too....which as Digby alludes to is a challenge.

Perhaps England were not fit enough to play the game they wanted to play. There are two obvious solutions to this. Get them fit enough or adopt another, less taxing, game plan that they can handle. Either way, this is a coaching call and if there was not enough time to get them fit, (Sarries contingent etc) Jones bears the decision to go the route he did and play the style they played, when they were not up to it.
In the bigger picture, any international team should be as fit as they can possibly be any time they take the field, irrespective of game plan, and should not run out of puff. That would not be an acceptable reason for losing. If some players are not fit, just drop them and replace with fitter ones until they shape up. I would not really see this as a challenge just a basic component of coaching.

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

Perhaps England were not fit enough to play the game they wanted to play. There are two obvious solutions to this. Get them fit enough or adopt another, less taxing, game plan that they can handle. Either way, this is a coaching call and if there was not enough time to get them fit, (Sarries contingent etc) Jones bears the decision to go the route he did and play the style they played, when they were not up to it.

So, only ever play a gameplan your players can cope with immediately. Never try to push the boundaries or improve anything. Don't have a long term plan.
Sounds like pretty shoddy coaching to me. Not to mention exactly what we have been complaining about for years when England win ugly, kick the leather off it etc.
I'm not an Eddie fanboy by any means, I'm just with Digby and Puja in A) thinking that the 6N is, especially with Covid, the best place to experiment under pressured circumstances. B) not thinking the 6N is a tournament that I want to win anywhere near as much as the World Cup. C) Give Eddie a lot of credit for getting us to a World Cup final + having the best record of any England coach ever. D) Feel like the attacking structure that's being put in place (alongside a sensible territorial tactical kicking game) has pretty exciting potential. E) Have a fair bit of faith in Eddie understanding how to get the players to their peak for when it's really important - the World Cup.
I was very pissed off after the Ireland game as we seemed to just revert to playing really stupid rugby, including the pens. And you're all probably right about them not being fitness related, I'm just clutching at straws to explain the inexplicable. Also, defence was alright, but nowhere near as good as it has been, even since the World Cup. But I'm more than willing to go along with the plan at the moment. Especially with nothing better waiting in the wings.