Prem will be 14 team league, no ring fence from 22-23

[Raggs]

Strikes me as a weird solution to be honest. Bringing in all the teams arguably capable of surviving the prem, but then still allowing one of them to drop out every other season.

EDIT -

Well that clears that up, play off.

[Puja]

Massive bunfight next season between Ealing and anyone else who wants to have a one-season charge at the Prem. For one season only, the market for journeymen in the Championship is back open again!

It should go without saying, given my previous broken record, that I utterly detest this plan - the last thing the domestic season needs is more games and more overlapping with internationals and I am dubious that adding a 14th team will do anything to the quality of the league and its ability to prepare players for international rugby. But it was always gonna happen. Wonder what this will mean for the RFU academies?

Puja

[fivepointer]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... overy-plan

The changes that will now be introduced include:

The expansion of the Premiership to 14 clubs at the end of the 2021/22 season through the promotion (subject to meeting the required minimum standards) of the winner of the Championship, while supporting player welfare by maintaining the maximum game play limits and guaranteed rest periods*.
Revised minimum standards criteria for clubs wishing to be promoted to the Premiership with wider game benefits such as financial sustainability, governance, player welfare, stadium facilities, medical provisions, safeguarding and community plans.
A 2022/23 season in which no side will be relegated from or promoted to the new 14-team Premiership, allowing clubs to plan with greater certainty and supporting the recently promoted clubs in making the transition between leagues.
A play-off in the 2023/24 season between the club finishing bottom of the Premiership and the winner of the Championship (subject to that club meeting the required minimum standards), with the result to decide which club plays in the Premiership during the following season.
From August 2024, the intention is to move to a position where there is a mandatory England Qualified Players (EQPs) system under which Premiership clubs must have a minimum of 15 EQPs in each match-day squad and the end of the foreign player rule to provide better England player development opportunities while giving greater flexibility for Premiership clubs to select non-EQP players of any nationality. There is further work to do to agree the detail of this subject to a new Professional Game Agreement (PGA) and introduction into regulation
Increased preparation time for the England men’s squad ahead of the 2023 Rugby World Cup as a result of an earlier end to the Premiership season in May 2023.
A commitment by the RFU and PRL to maintain current levels of funding to the Championship until the end of the PGA in 2024, providing a greater level of certainty for member clubs.

[Raggs]

Massive bunfight next season between Ealing and anyone else who wants to have a one-season charge at the Prem. For one season only, the market for journeymen in the Championship is back open again!

It should go without saying, given my previous broken record, that I utterly detest this plan - the last thing the domestic season needs is more games and more overlapping with internationals and I am dubious that adding a 14th team will do anything to the quality of the league and its ability to prepare players for international rugby. But it was always gonna happen. Wonder what this will mean for the RFU academies?

Puja

I wonder also if given the expansion of other leagues, if it will lead to a shortening of the Euros.

[Banquo]

Rubbish call.

[fivepointer]

"Maintain current levels of funding to the Championship"

Thats gonna help raise their standards for sure.....

This de facto ringfencing. I understand why and think there are sound reasons for moving to it but there doesnt seem to be anything in this package that will help the 2nd tier evolve.

[Banquo]

"Maintain current levels of funding to the Championship"

Thats gonna help raise their standards for sure.....

This de facto ringfencing. I understand why and think there are sound reasons for moving to it but there doesnt seem to be anything in this package that will help the 2nd tier evolve.

What's your 'vision' for the 2nd tier, out of interest?

[Puja]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... overy-plan

The changes that will now be introduced include:

...
From August 2024, the intention is to move to a position where there is a mandatory England Qualified Players (EQPs) system under which Premiership clubs must have a minimum of 15 EQPs in each match-day squad and the end of the foreign player rule to provide better England player development opportunities while giving greater flexibility for Premiership clubs to select non-EQP players of any nationality. There is further work to do to agree the detail of this subject to a new Professional Game Agreement (PGA) and introduction into regulation

Increased preparation time for the England men’s squad ahead of the 2023 Rugby World Cup as a result of an earlier end to the Premiership season in May 2023.

Ahhh, there's the quid pro quos. I was wondering if the RFU had got anything out of this arrangement. Good to see they're acting on the one sporting advantage of Brexit and going towards treating all foreigners alike - I'm assuming that will include Celts as well, which will do a little something to curb the poaching.

The "supporting player welfare" bit is either mince or preparing us for England players missing a larger chunk of the season (or both, could be both). And "maintaining the current level of funding to the Championship" is useless considering the Championship's currently on starvation rations.

On the bright side, at least they have made a decision and appear to have some kind of plan as to what they see professional rugby in England looking like. I might not agree with it, but it is nice that an actual plan of action is being implemented rather than random flailing and defunding the Championship when they get bored.

Massive bunfight next season between Ealing and anyone else who wants to have a one-season charge at the Prem. For one season only, the market for journeymen in the Championship is back open again!

It should go without saying, given my previous broken record, that I utterly detest this plan - the last thing the domestic season needs is more games and more overlapping with internationals and I am dubious that adding a 14th team will do anything to the quality of the league and its ability to prepare players for international rugby. But it was always gonna happen. Wonder what this will mean for the RFU academies?

Puja

I wonder also if given the expansion of other leagues, if it will lead to a shortening of the Euros.

The United Rugby Championship (still not sure if I want to take the piss out of that name yet) actually has fewer games than previous iterations as it's not a round robin. I don't know if I like their format, but I am envious of the player welfare and complete removal of international clashes that it's affording them.

But yes, I suspect the ERC will probably be the thing that gets shafted due to this as it'll be both us and France that have too many games.

Puja

[fivepointer]

"Maintain current levels of funding to the Championship"

Thats gonna help raise their standards for sure.....

This de facto ringfencing. I understand why and think there are sound reasons for moving to it but there doesnt seem to be anything in this package that will help the 2nd tier evolve.

What's your 'vision' for the 2nd tier, out of interest?

I'd like to have a competitive league where there would be at least 3 or 4 clubs capable of supporting Prem rugby. I'd like to see close links with the Prem clubs and a strong commitment to home grown coaches and players. I'd like to see a Pro league of 10 clubs but we are a long way from that.
Right now the Champ is a dogs dinner. There are teams who would like to go higher but dont have the money or ground, there are some who are just happy to be where they are.
Some investment is going to be needed to raise standards, otherwise the gap with the Prem is just going to grow.

[Mellsblue]

"
This is de facto ringfencing.

This.

There was some talk at the time of the CVC buy in that there was going to be a move towards fewer games of higher quality (eg no clashes with tests, double headers and/or derbies in high capacity stadia) but this looks like the opposite. If it’s a first step to conferences and therefore fewer games then it’s not too bad. However, it’s currently a useless fudge. They should either ring fence and make some positive changes, see above, or stick to the status quo, ie either be a fully commercial enterprise or stick to the good ol’ sporting pyramid structure, both of which are preferable to this.

[Digby]

I don't believe the no ring-fencing thereafter line, for some reason

[Raggs]

I don't believe the no ring-fencing thereafter line, for some reason

A playoff game will happen. I suspect they're confident enough that the team going down will beat a try hard coming up. Fenced in all but name. Could make for some interesting games though.

[Digby]

I don't believe the no ring-fencing thereafter line, for some reason

A playoff game will happen. I suspect they're confident enough that the team going down will beat a try hard coming up. Fenced in all but name. Could make for some interesting games though.

Eurrgh to cup endings to league format comps. Though I might well be in a minority of 1 given the wider move in sport to bolt on extra games as the final final to end all finals champions game.

Frankly with a 14 team comp there's scope for an automatic 2 up and 2 down.

[Puja]

Here's a question for you - if there are going to be 14 Prem clubs, all with a requirement to have 15 EQP in their matchday XXIIIs, does the English talent production system really have enough top-quality players to field a minimum of 210 players? Or is the quality of the league going to go down the toilet with these reforms?

Also, what is the value to the national team of having 210 regular players available to them, when we can only field 15 of them on the pitch at any given time?

Puja

[Banquo]

"Maintain current levels of funding to the Championship"

Thats gonna help raise their standards for sure.....

This de facto ringfencing. I understand why and think there are sound reasons for moving to it but there doesnt seem to be anything in this package that will help the 2nd tier evolve.

What's your 'vision' for the 2nd tier, out of interest?

I'd like to have a competitive league where there would be at least 3 or 4 clubs capable of supporting Prem rugby. I'd like to see close links with the Prem clubs and a strong commitment to home grown coaches and players. I'd like to see a Pro league of 10 clubs but we are a long way from that.
Right now the Champ is a dogs dinner. There are teams who would like to go higher but dont have the money or ground, there are some who are just happy to be where they are.
Some investment is going to be needed to raise standards, otherwise the gap with the Prem is just going to grow.

So basically you see 14 teams as the ceiling for top tier pro club rugby. What sort of 'investment' are you thinking of? Capital- grounds and infrastructure, or subsidising running costs?

[Banquo]

Here's a question for you - if there are going to be 14 Prem clubs, all with a requirement to have 15 EQP in their matchday XXIIIs, does the English talent production system really have enough top-quality players to field a minimum of 210 players? Or is the quality of the league going to go down the toilet with these reforms?

Also, what is the value to the national team of having 210 regular players available to them, when we can only field 15 of them on the pitch at any given time?

Puja

This.

[Raggs]

Here's a question for you - if there are going to be 14 Prem clubs, all with a requirement to have 15 EQP in their matchday XXIIIs, does the English talent production system really have enough top-quality players to field a minimum of 210 players? Or is the quality of the league going to go down the toilet with these reforms?

Also, what is the value to the national team of having 210 regular players available to them, when we can only field 15 of them on the pitch at any given time?

Puja

It's why I really don't mind decent quality overseas operators. I'd have a minimum wage requirement on overseas players. If they aren't worth £100k (or whatever) then sign an EQP.

[Gloskarlos]

I don't think they'll be signing many EQP's in the main, I think this is a message that you have got 3 years to get your Academy/A team/feeder clubs all aligned.

[Banquo]

Here's a question for you - if there are going to be 14 Prem clubs, all with a requirement to have 15 EQP in their matchday XXIIIs, does the English talent production system really have enough top-quality players to field a minimum of 210 players? Or is the quality of the league going to go down the toilet with these reforms?

Also, what is the value to the national team of having 210 regular players available to them, when we can only field 15 of them on the pitch at any given time?

Puja

It's why I really don't mind decent quality overseas operators. I'd have a minimum wage requirement on overseas players. If they aren't worth £100k (or whatever) then sign an EQP.

Maybe its a step too far, but maybe you could make it so that overseas players have to be a marquee player, if that still exists. I may be talking nonsense tho

[Puja]

Here's a question for you - if there are going to be 14 Prem clubs, all with a requirement to have 15 EQP in their matchday XXIIIs, does the English talent production system really have enough top-quality players to field a minimum of 210 players? Or is the quality of the league going to go down the toilet with these reforms?

Also, what is the value to the national team of having 210 regular players available to them, when we can only field 15 of them on the pitch at any given time?

Puja

It's why I really don't mind decent quality overseas operators. I'd have a minimum wage requirement on overseas players. If they aren't worth £100k (or whatever) then sign an EQP.

Now *that* is an excellent suggestion. No-one's got a problem with the Faf de Klerks and the Jasper Wieses coming here. I don't even think the Akker van der Merwes and the Hanro Liebenbergs are too much of a problem. It's the EW Viljoens that are the issue.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

You need to strike a balance between bringing in non-EQP who will raise the quality of the league and not bringing in non-EQP who will stump young EQP progression.
Difficult balance to make, especially with 14 clubs with different needs and no central control.
I do quite like the idea of a min salary requirement even if it’s a blunt tool, see Richie Mounga. Where you’d set it I don’t know....... wouldn’t make for great optics, mind.

[Which Tyler]

Eurrgh to cup endings to league format comps. Though I might well be in a minority of 1 given the wider move in sport to bolt on extra games as the final final to end all finals champions game.

Frankly with a 14 team comp there's scope for an automatic 2 up and 2 down.

Trust me, there's quite a few of us - even if we've largely stopped shouting about the play-offs. Not shouting =/= now approves

[Digby]

Eurrgh to cup endings to league format comps. Though I might well be in a minority of 1 given the wider move in sport to bolt on extra games as the final final to end all finals champions game.

Frankly with a 14 team comp there's scope for an automatic 2 up and 2 down.

Trust me, there's quite a few of us - even if we've largely stopped shouting about the play-offs. Not shouting =/= now approves

It's a minority movement, I doubt even Bristol are thinking much along the lines of they're the Champion club based on actual league performance over the season

[Scrumhead]

Here's a question for you - if there are going to be 14 Prem clubs, all with a requirement to have 15 EQP in their matchday XXIIIs, does the English talent production system really have enough top-quality players to field a minimum of 210 players? Or is the quality of the league going to go down the toilet with these reforms?

Also, what is the value to the national team of having 210 regular players available to them, when we can only field 15 of them on the pitch at any given time?

Puja

It's why I really don't mind decent quality overseas operators. I'd have a minimum wage requirement on overseas players. If they aren't worth £100k (or whatever) then sign an EQP.

Now *that* is an excellent suggestion. No-one's got a problem with the Faf de Klerks and the Jasper Wieses coming here. I don't even think the Akker van der Merwes and the Hanro Liebenbergs are too much of a problem. It's the EW Viljoens that are the issue.

Puja

100% agree. More or less exactly what I said elsewhere.

I’m firmly of the belief that quality overseas players improve those around them - and it’s arguably the academy players that benefit the most.

What we want to limit is the average non EQP pro who doesn’t offer much to English rugby. So to use an example from Quins - if it’s a choice between Santiago Garcia Botta (who is stealing a living IMO) or an EQP Championship level loosehead, I’d take the latter any day of the week.

On the other hand, I’m not totally convinced that there are enough academy products who are genuinely going to make it at the level needed to really benefit England. I’m concerned we’ll end up with more Championship level players in the top league which benefits no-one because the good players aren’t challenged as much.

[jimKRFC]

It seems like a compromise on Steve Lansdowns no relegation for 3 seasons plan but to allow all the "p" share holders to be in the club.

I like the stability it offers, I like the 15 eqp plan, but the continued funding for Championship is a joke.

They just slashed the funding so keeping it as a pitence doesn't really help. Would like to have seen it increased and championship clubs (top 4 or 6) invited into the premiership cup somehow. That would help all the Championship clubs grow, perhaps even guarantee them home draws to help fund them.