U20s squad announced

[Raggs]

Yeah, Atkinson has been poor.

[Which Tyler]

Stupid stupid stupid

[Which Tyler]

[Raggs]

Crikey. Ireland get a maul try against 7 men and it's all the plaudits.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Well one the other way. And to be fair they did mention body positions not size!

[Epaminondas Pules]

The English backs are significantly smaller than their Irish counterparts. This Irish backline is one of the biggest they have ever had at this level. #justsaying

[Epaminondas Pules]

And up front it is technique not size. They can tak al they want, but technique wins.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Atkinson again. Just seems off it tonight.

[Epaminondas Pules]

And up front it is technique not size. They can tak al they want, but technique wins.

Remember this bench started and seriously struggled up front against France. It isn’t about size.

[Epaminondas Pules]

That’s a warning is it? Wow that’s quick!

[Mellsblue]

Bloody hell. The wheels on Haffar.

[fivepointer]

Our front rowers were tremendous. Riley is some player. Groves, Richards and Clement all really good too. Backs less impressive but they all defended well. Lancaster has some quality about him.

[Epaminondas Pules]

This is a bloody good Ireland side but they offered nothing in attack. One break on the outside and that’s it. Telegraphed play by numbers. Really disappointed in Ireland’s attack.

We should’ve done a lot more. Credit to Ireland’s defence, but that’s a flattering score line.

[FKAS]

Our front rowers were tremendous. Riley is some player. Groves, Richards and Clement all really good too. Backs less impressive but they all defended well. Lancaster has some quality about him.

Riley is some player but needs to tighten up his darts at the lineout. I'm sure Flannery at Quins will move that along. He gets that part of his game moving in the right direction and he could get some Prem minutes next season.

[Mellsblue]

v Wales:

England U20 starting XV: 15 Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby), 14 Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks), 13 Jack Bates (Bristol Bears), 12 Dan Lancaster (Leeds Tykes), 11 Arthur Relton (Exeter Chiefs), 10 Fin Smith (Worcester Warriors), 9 Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers) Captain; 1 Fin Baxter (Harlequins), 2 Sam Riley (Harlequins), 3 Harvey Kindell-Beaton (Saracens), 4 Arthur Clark (Gloucester Rugby), 5 Alex Groves (Bristol Bears), 6 Ewan Richards (Bath Rugby), 7 Jack Clement (Gloucester Rugby), 8 Nahum Merigan (Bath Rugby)

Replacements: 16 Archie Vanes (Leicester Tigers), 17 Lewis Holsey (Worcester Warriors), 18 Luke Green (London Irish), 19 Freddie Thomas (Gloucester Rugby), 20 Josh Gray (Gloucester Rugby), 21 Ollie Stonham (Saracens), 22 Tom Carr-Smith (Bath Rugby), 23 Tommy Mathews (Hartpury University RFC), 24 Phil Cokanasiga (London Irish), 25 Deago Bailey (Bristol Bears), 26 Charlie Atkinson (Wasps

[fivepointer]

Steady as you go kinda selection. Thought there might be a bit more rotation. Quirke must be unfit, which is a pity.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Baxter playing loosehead is interesting. Brantingham can play both sides, whereas Fin was solely a tighthead. Been keen to see how he goes on that side.

[Puja]

No Ilione? Is he injured?

Puja

[FKAS]

No Ilione? Is he injured?

Puja

Looked like a dislocated shoulder Vs Scotland. He went off early in that one having looked explosive. Probably not a 7 but the kind of dynamic and powerful 6 that can get stuck into the breakdown and still jump at the lineout. I was starting to think he'd be one to watch and then his game was cut short. With that injury I doubt we'll see him before pre season. He'd only just come back from injury as well, which had stopped him playing for Notts.

[Scrumhead]

Baxter playing loosehead is interesting. Brantingham can play both sides, whereas Fin was solely a tighthead. Been keen to see how he goes on that side.

Yeah. He’s done it a couple of times for Quins too (albeit very late on so almost impossible to judge).

From a Quins POV, he’d be more immediately useful as a loosehead given that we have no real depth behind Marler, so that might be partially behind the switch.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Baxter playing loosehead is interesting. Brantingham can play both sides, whereas Fin was solely a tighthead. Been keen to see how he goes on that side.

Yeah. He’s done it a couple of times for Quins too (albeit very late on so almost impossible to judge).

From a Quins POV, he’d be more immediately useful as a loosehead given that we have no real depth behind Marler, so that might be partially behind the switch.

It is interesting that we’ve two outstanding props coming through who can potentially play both sides. Just a shame not to see Brant and Fin together again at this level. They are both very special talents! And that’s without considering Beaton or Whitcombe or Haffar.

There’s genuinely another generation to rival and arguably surpass the class of 2011.

[FKAS]

Baxter playing loosehead is interesting. Brantingham can play both sides, whereas Fin was solely a tighthead. Been keen to see how he goes on that side.

Yeah. He’s done it a couple of times for Quins too (albeit very late on so almost impossible to judge).

From a Quins POV, he’d be more immediately useful as a loosehead given that we have no real depth behind Marler, so that might be partially behind the switch.

It is interesting that we’ve two outstanding props coming through who can potentially play both sides. Just a shame not to see Brant and Fin together again at this level. They are both very special talents! And that’s without considering Beaton or Whitcombe or Haffar.

There’s genuinely another generation to rival and arguably surpass the class of 2011.

Seemed a few years ago we were scratching around for props but now they are coming through at a rate. Painter, Street and Heyes haven't really got their feet under the table yet and the next lot are already on their way through. The size of some of the England under 20 lads as well.

Props seem to be getting up to senior standard earlier as well. Whitcombe had no problem driving back Toomaga-Allen in the last game of the Prem season. Heyes has been comfortable at senior level since he was 19. Used to be a prop that played before they were 23 was a star in the making with the expectation they'd peal between 28-32.

[Puja]

Yeah. He’s done it a couple of times for Quins too (albeit very late on so almost impossible to judge).

From a Quins POV, he’d be more immediately useful as a loosehead given that we have no real depth behind Marler, so that might be partially behind the switch.

It is interesting that we’ve two outstanding props coming through who can potentially play both sides. Just a shame not to see Brant and Fin together again at this level. They are both very special talents! And that’s without considering Beaton or Whitcombe or Haffar.

There’s genuinely another generation to rival and arguably surpass the class of 2011.

Seemed a few years ago we were scratching around for props but now they are coming through at a rate. Painter, Street and Heyes haven't really got their feet under the table yet and the next lot are already on their way through. The size of some of the England under 20 lads as well.

Props seem to be getting up to senior standard earlier as well. Whitcombe had no problem driving back Toomaga-Allen in the last game of the Prem season. Heyes has been comfortable at senior level since he was 19. Used to be a prop that played before they were 23 was a star in the making with the expectation they'd peal between 28-32.

Which will give you the full blast on this when he sees that, but IMO, a prop shouldn't be first choice at his club before he's 24. Their bones aren't ready for playing 30+ games at the top level in the front row before then. I want more Dan Coles (and even then, he was beasted too hard, too early and spent a lot of time injured), rather than Trevor Woodmans and Alex Corbisieros.

To my mind, Painter, Street, and Heyes are all on target, with Heyes highest and Painter lowest. They've still got time to kick on further. They want to start challenging for the 3 shirt at their clubs next season and be the first choice in 2022.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

Green has 3 games and Whitcombe 8 (although only 115 minutes of game time) from the older U20 props. Beaton is in a Championship club, where he was loaned out to Ampthill I believe for a couple of games. Haffar no games. Holsey was on loan at Coventry and injured. I can't see any of them making first choice any time soon. Maybe subs appearances, likely Whitcombe most, especially during internationals.

Bevan Rodd from the year above is much more of an exception in terms of game time and people are talking about capping him at the age of 20. Probably to tie him to England.

Baxter is the only school leaver (of note) to have played, with 3 games for Quins.

[FKAS]

It is interesting that we’ve two outstanding props coming through who can potentially play both sides. Just a shame not to see Brant and Fin together again at this level. They are both very special talents! And that’s without considering Beaton or Whitcombe or Haffar.

There’s genuinely another generation to rival and arguably surpass the class of 2011.

Seemed a few years ago we were scratching around for props but now they are coming through at a rate. Painter, Street and Heyes haven't really got their feet under the table yet and the next lot are already on their way through. The size of some of the England under 20 lads as well.

Props seem to be getting up to senior standard earlier as well. Whitcombe had no problem driving back Toomaga-Allen in the last game of the Prem season. Heyes has been comfortable at senior level since he was 19. Used to be a prop that played before they were 23 was a star in the making with the expectation they'd peal between 28-32.

Which will give you the full blast on this when he sees that, but IMO, a prop shouldn't be first choice at his club before he's 24. Their bones aren't ready for playing 30+ games at the top level in the front row before then. I want more Dan Coles (and even then, he was beasted too hard, too early and spent a lot of time injured), rather than Trevor Woodmans and Alex Corbisieros.

To my mind, Painter, Street, and Heyes are all on target, with Heyes highest and Painter lowest. They've still got time to kick on further. They want to start challenging for the 3 shirt at their clubs next season and be the first choice in 2022.

Puja

I don't disagree. In fact if wouldn't be opposed to an age limit relating to the front row at Prem level or limited to a certain number of minutes per season of under a certain age. Say 21.

Heyes has 60 odd appearances at 21/22. If he doesn't make it with England regularly he'll maybe have 100 appearances for Tigers before his 24th birthday. That's a lot of games for a young prop but thankfully those minutes have been well managed.