Lions squad named

[Digby]

I doubt you'll seed much doubt in the Bokke defence, they've been running it for a while now and surely have a lot of faith in it. Pressure might impact their game, but to veer from the system would be quite a mental meltdown for them

And it's a very tough defence to play against in how physical they are, the speed of their press and how quickly they recover both to the next phase and if they need to scramble. Honestly I don't know if Price of Murray is the better bet, they both offer something if one wanted to use it. Biggar doesn't offer much unless the Boks don't claim and exit well off his kicks. And the 12 and 13 have barely been seen on attack, and we've certainly not linked into the back 3.

With one week to go I'd keep it as simply as pick Price, work not to the centre but 15-20m infield and attack the shortside, basically as much as possible ignore the blitz by not engaging with it. And then pick as many carriers as possible (although ideally not the English ones), and pick flankers

[Spiffy]

It doesn’t have to be expansive. There are a million variations of something resembling rugby that could be played before considering a style you’d call expansive. We absolutely do have players that are capable of this.

Have Gatland and his team got the desire to try and shift them around a bit, maybe even go more than 2 phases before hoofing it away? I dunno.

Even a token gesture of variation might put a hint of doubt in the minds of the Bokke defence? It’s as if any aspirations to attack died when Am murdered Daly about 4 seconds in to the first test.

That looks OK on paper. But the Bok defence is tight as a drum. They have given away 3 tries in their last 9 games.

[Mikey Brown]

Of course their defence is good, great even, but it’s been out in the open to analyse for a long time now. It’s not invincible. As Digby said there are simple enough ways to attack that don’t play directly in to their hands. We could at least try.

I agree that it’s more likely Gatland will try to alter selection to fit the gameplan, rather than the other way around, and that would at least be a step closer to having a cohesive plan. Not sure what you do about selecting Murray and Biggar to play a kicking game and then seeing them do whatever the fuck that was they did yesterday.

Also thought this was worth adding in here.

[Mikey Brown]

Hogg bite, Itoje knee, Biggar dive. Lol. Fucking hell. I wonder if any of them will come to anything.

[Beasties]

as I said.....Mako did ok, when questions are always asked. His loose play is superb, as is his lifting.

Mako has been part of plenty of dominant scrums across his career. On this tour he’s had a very good, even contest against arguably the best scrummaging tighthead on the planet in Malherbe.

Mako seems to match up well with Malherbe at the moment for whatever reason, so whether he is on the bench or in the starting team might come down to second guessing the Saffa front row selection. Hope Wyn Jones is fit because Sutherland seems to be really struggling.

I also thought Malherbe got away with murder on his angles, and Mako did well to contain that, though it will have rippled across.

Indeed, and that's what a TH can do when he's not under pressure from his oppo. When he's in trouble he has to concentrate on just holding his own. As in, what was happening on the other side of the scrum in this match. You said Furlong was under pressure. I agree.

[Sandydragon]

Agree with all who think there should be several changes for next week. But given Gatland's past and mind set, we will probably see a mostly same-again selection, with the hope that they will just perform better. The Lions will not change their game plan drastically for the last test. Even if they get adequate ball they just don't have the players in the backs to dent the Boks by playing expansive rugby. Only Henshaw has looked remotely competitive and the Bok defence, anchored by a couple of large, powerful hard men in the centre, looks very solid.
The game calls out for different Lions tactics, but they don't look to have the capacity to change much.

His past mindset includes the decision to drop someone like BOD. There's plenty to criticise Gats with without suggesting he's not willing to change selection, indeed the 2nd test itself saw changes in selection.

There was a suggestion before the first test that the team decision was a collaborative one. Now that it’s all down to this last game, and there’s so much riding on it, I wonder if Gatland just picks the team on his own.

[Banquo]

Mako has been part of plenty of dominant scrums across his career. On this tour he’s had a very good, even contest against arguably the best scrummaging tighthead on the planet in Malherbe.

Mako seems to match up well with Malherbe at the moment for whatever reason, so whether he is on the bench or in the starting team might come down to second guessing the Saffa front row selection. Hope Wyn Jones is fit because Sutherland seems to be really struggling.

I also thought Malherbe got away with murder on his angles, and Mako did well to contain that, though it will have rippled across.

Indeed, and that's what a TH can do when he's not under pressure from his oppo. When he's in trouble he has to concentrate on just holding his own. As in, what was happening on the other side of the scrum in this match. You said Furlong was under pressure. I agree.

I'm a tad confused, the TH should have been stopped from doing that by the ref, surely? How does a loosehead prevent him coming in at 45 degrees- genuine question, cos I can't see how that would work, mechanically....speaking as a 13

[Mellsblue]

[Spiffy]

Would not have been too surprised to see Itoje cited for a knee on the neck (of I think de Allende?). You could clearly see a bit of downwards pressure for just a moment.

[Puja]

Erasmus staying classy.



Puja

[Mellsblue]

I’m sorry we shot your friend but remember that time you slapped one of mine?

[Puja]

The annoying thing is that Vunipola was actually 100% in the wrong, but the way Erasmus whined about it last week and then brought it up again now means that I want to defend him.

Puja

[Beasties]

I also thought Malherbe got away with murder on his angles, and Mako did well to contain that, though it will have rippled across.

Indeed, and that's what a TH can do when he's not under pressure from his oppo. When he's in trouble he has to concentrate on just holding his own. As in, what was happening on the other side of the scrum in this match. You said Furlong was under pressure. I agree.

I'm a tad confused, the TH should have been stopped from doing that by the ref, surely? How does a loosehead prevent him coming in at 45 degrees- genuine question, cos I can't see how that would work, mechanically....speaking as a 13

You almost never see scrums being pinged properly. Unless you've actually played in the front row you can't understand the forces at work. TH has more force going throuh him than LH, that's just the geometry of it. You're right, a LH can't stop a TH boring in, nothing he can do about it. A TH in trouble has to push straight just to hopefully stand his ground. The moment he goes in he's going backwards.I refer back to the Furlong-Kitshoff contest here, how many times did you see that side of the scrum go in? A TH who knows he is winning can start to push his luck and "get away" with other stuff like putting the hooker off his strike. He knows he's going forward and that a ref will reward him. Most ofmthe SA scrums were rock steady, several of the Lions ones were a mess or in trouble.

[Cameo]

Of course their defence is good, great even, but it’s been out in the open to analyse for a long time now. It’s not invincible. As Digby said there are simple enough ways to attack that don’t play directly in to their hands. We could at least try.

I agree that it’s more likely Gatland will try to alter selection to fit the gameplan, rather than the other way around, and that would at least be a step closer to having a cohesive plan. Not sure what you do about selecting Murray and Biggar to play a kicking game and then seeing them do whatever the fuck that was they did yesterday.

Also thought this was worth adding in here.

Exactly. People calling for a change of gameplan aren't saying we'll then rip SA to shreds or that SA will then abandon their defensive structure. We might not even score any tries.

BUT even if we do a few pick and goes it will be an improvement on that. I'd go all out and pick an undercooked Russell and get him picking out carriers (some of whom will get smashed) but even with the players from that match, you can have some plans to get a little go forward and at least tempt SA to give away penalties.

[jngf]

Was very impressed by the playing performance put in by Kolisi in this match - in previous tests the captaincy seemed to be the biggest thing he was bringing to the party but he was everywhere in this match - seems like a 6.5 rather than a fetcher and thought him and Quagga Smith made an effective duo on either flank.

[Digby]

BUT even if we do a few pick and goes it will be an improvement on that. I'd go all out and pick an undercooked Russell and get him picking out carriers (some of whom will get smashed) but even with the players from that match, you can have some plans to get a little go forward and at least tempt SA to give away penalties.

There was an 11 play off a lineout where Itoje had drifted to the wing to contest the kick that came on the switch back jumping against Faf who SA tend to send wide. So they can do one thing, but if SA don't give away a penalty doing another thing looks beyond us

[Danno]

Boring boring boring boring boring boring boring boring. Well done SA

They played shit rugby better than we can

[Mikey Brown]

BUT even if we do a few pick and goes it will be an improvement on that. I'd go all out and pick an undercooked Russell and get him picking out carriers (some of whom will get smashed) but even with the players from that match, you can have some plans to get a little go forward and at least tempt SA to give away penalties.

There was an 11 play off a lineout where Itoje had drifted to the wing to contest the kick that came on the switch back jumping against Faf who SA tend to send wide. So they can do one thing, but if SA don't give away a penalty doing another thing looks beyond us

Was that one of the cross field kicks that only just about made it to the gainline? I find it hard to tell when it’s just poor execution or if people are kicking that shallow intentionally. It very rarely seems to lead to much outside of the NZ club sides.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Agree with all who think there should be several changes for next week. But given Gatland's past and mind set, we will probably see a mostly same-again selection, with the hope that they will just perform better. The Lions will not change their game plan drastically for the last test. Even if they get adequate ball they just don't have the players in the backs to dent the Boks by playing expansive rugby. Only Henshaw has looked remotely competitive and the Bok defence, anchored by a couple of large, powerful hard men in the centre, looks very solid.
The game calls out for different Lions tactics, but they don't look to have the capacity to change much.

His past mindset includes the decision to drop someone like BOD. There's plenty to criticise Gats with without suggesting he's not willing to change selection, indeed the 2nd test itself saw changes in selection.

He's quite stubborn with selection but, I agree, he made big changes for the must-win final test in the 2013 series:
6 changes in the XV (including dropping BOD), only 2 of which were promotions from the 2nd test bench,
5 changes in the bench, only 2 of which were demotions from the XV.
So 7 new faces altogether.

Also (even more importantly) the Welsh headcount in the XV increased from 7 to 10, ensuring victory .

[Son of Mathonwy]

I don't get what Gatland's doing. The side who gets the best results against South Africa are New Zealand, who avoid directly attacking their strength and play a faster game to move their forwards arounds. He picked an initial squad that looked like it might use that - Watson, Russell, Tipuric, Simmonds, Conan, LCD, Price - but we've then gone on to pick almost none of them and just play staid rugby, trying to outmasculine the Boks at close quarters. Surprisingly enough, the Springboks are better at being the Springboks than we are.

Puja

This is all strangely familiar to the Wales fan.

He brought you plenty of success from a pretty low point, and has delivered for the Lions more often than not at the moment; but he has to find summat next week.

Agreed, from a pretty low point indeed.

He's a very solid coach with a simple plan which can be adopted quickly and brings quick success. So he's good for the Lions and was very good for Wales for a year or two, and thereafter whenever there was a particularly good crop of (uninjured) players.

[Banquo]

Indeed, and that's what a TH can do when he's not under pressure from his oppo. When he's in trouble he has to concentrate on just holding his own. As in, what was happening on the other side of the scrum in this match. You said Furlong was under pressure. I agree.

I'm a tad confused, the TH should have been stopped from doing that by the ref, surely? How does a loosehead prevent him coming in at 45 degrees- genuine question, cos I can't see how that would work, mechanically....speaking as a 13

You almost never see scrums being pinged properly. Unless you've actually played in the front row you can't understand the forces at work. TH has more force going throuh him than LH, that's just the geometry of it. You're right, a LH can't stop a TH boring in, nothing he can do about it. A TH in trouble has to push straight just to hopefully stand his ground. The moment he goes in he's going backwards.I refer back to the Furlong-Kitshoff contest here, how many times did you see that side of the scrum go in? A TH who knows he is winning can start to push his luck and "get away" with other stuff like putting the hooker off his strike. He knows he's going forward and that a ref will reward him. Most ofmthe SA scrums were rock steady, several of the Lions ones were a mess or in trouble.

Hurrah! Thing is, if I can see it, why can't the ref/TJ?

(in my later career I played hooker in 7's. That's not quite the same is it )

[Beasties]

I'm a tad confused, the TH should have been stopped from doing that by the ref, surely? How does a loosehead prevent him coming in at 45 degrees- genuine question, cos I can't see how that would work, mechanically....speaking as a 13

You almost never see scrums being pinged properly. Unless you've actually played in the front row you can't understand the forces at work. TH has more force going throuh him than LH, that's just the geometry of it. You're right, a LH can't stop a TH boring in, nothing he can do about it. A TH in trouble has to push straight just to hopefully stand his ground. The moment he goes in he's going backwards.I refer back to the Furlong-Kitshoff contest here, how many times did you see that side of the scrum go in? A TH who knows he is winning can start to push his luck and "get away" with other stuff like putting the hooker off his strike. He knows he's going forward and that a ref will reward him. Most ofmthe SA scrums were rock steady, several of the Lions ones were a mess or in trouble.

Hurrah! Thing is, if I can see it, why can't the ref/TJ?

(in my later career I played hooker in 7's. That's not quite the same is it )

No but you can at leat dine out on it forever

[Mellsblue]

You almost never see scrums being pinged properly. Unless you've actually played in the front row you can't understand the forces at work. TH has more force going throuh him than LH, that's just the geometry of it. You're right, a LH can't stop a TH boring in, nothing he can do about it. A TH in trouble has to push straight just to hopefully stand his ground. The moment he goes in he's going backwards.I refer back to the Furlong-Kitshoff contest here, how many times did you see that side of the scrum go in? A TH who knows he is winning can start to push his luck and "get away" with other stuff like putting the hooker off his strike. He knows he's going forward and that a ref will reward him. Most ofmthe SA scrums were rock steady, several of the Lions ones were a mess or in trouble.

Hurrah! Thing is, if I can see it, why can't the ref/TJ?

(in my later career I played hooker in 7's. That's not quite the same is it )

No but you can at leat dine out on it forever

Is this a polite way of saying that props and hookers never stop eating?

[Puja]

You almost never see scrums being pinged properly. Unless you've actually played in the front row you can't understand the forces at work. TH has more force going throuh him than LH, that's just the geometry of it. You're right, a LH can't stop a TH boring in, nothing he can do about it. A TH in trouble has to push straight just to hopefully stand his ground. The moment he goes in he's going backwards.I refer back to the Furlong-Kitshoff contest here, how many times did you see that side of the scrum go in? A TH who knows he is winning can start to push his luck and "get away" with other stuff like putting the hooker off his strike. He knows he's going forward and that a ref will reward him. Most ofmthe SA scrums were rock steady, several of the Lions ones were a mess or in trouble.

Hurrah! Thing is, if I can see it, why can't the ref/TJ?

(in my later career I played hooker in 7's. That's not quite the same is it )

No but you can at leat dine out on it forever

I've found it's a fast ticket to playing front row in XVs if you mention it at your local club.

Puja

[Digby]

BUT even if we do a few pick and goes it will be an improvement on that. I'd go all out and pick an undercooked Russell and get him picking out carriers (some of whom will get smashed) but even with the players from that match, you can have some plans to get a little go forward and at least tempt SA to give away penalties.

There was an 11 play off a lineout where Itoje had drifted to the wing to contest the kick that came on the switch back jumping against Faf who SA tend to send wide. So they can do one thing, but if SA don't give away a penalty doing another thing looks beyond us

Was that one of the cross field kicks that only just about made it to the gainline? I find it hard to tell when it’s just poor execution or if people are kicking that shallow intentionally. It very rarely seems to lead to much outside of the NZ club sides.

The kick made it to the area of the pitch Faf and Maro were in, it was a shorter kick but it wasn't merely a kick into space. Yes it did go from somewhere middle-ish on the field back out to the right, it started with a lineout on the right and was an 11 play off that. And for that detail to be in play it'd have to be a specific part of their attack, the chances of all that taking place by random chance would be vanishingly small. I laughed because Itoje looked like he was hamming it up with an injury and was only drifting wide to hide, whether that actually was an attempt at disguise from Maro or he had simultaneously been pranged I don't know.

As a concept it's fine, but it floundered on the idea of okay, what next?

Broadly the Lions were much too slow, and that along with all the stops in play allowed SA to remain in the game much more than the opening match. But playing at pace into the SA blitz is very, very hard, it's the kind of thing NZ will get wrong far more than right, and they're starting with a much more developed attack than the Lions can possibly have. I doubt the Lions can develop their attack much, thus I'd be looking to play faster and work the shortside, and the other big thing to is control the exit plays, SA were granted a lot of possession and territory off restarts and just high balls in general, and it was too much to contend with when there's no attack to actually score any points and put pressure back on SA.

And finally the should be a culling at the IRB. This is supposed to be a flagship event and the rugby is pathetic, it really is depressingly awful, boring, limited, ..., this cannot be what they should be aiming for