COVID19

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Digby
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Re: COVID19

Post by Digby »

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Digby wrote:Good news for them is it seems the premium way to go about things is get Covid (and don't suffer too badly) and then get fully vaxxed.
Premium, if you assume there are no ill effects from catching Covid.
Yes, and more for the individual than a societal benefit. Just if you can do it that way around it looks like you'll get the strongest immunity response

I wouldn't do it that way around, but as they are in that boat there is a potential advantage to be gleaned. Although glean might be the wrong word, as to get the advantage should be a piece of pish
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Puja
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Re: COVID19

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Which Tyler wrote:
I have learned something new today. Kinda wish I hadn't, tbh.

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morepork
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Re: COVID19

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  • reject masks
    reject vaccines
    embrace livestock de-wormer
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Which Tyler
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Re: COVID19

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I learned something too; but felt stupider for learning it
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Which Tyler
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Re: COVID19

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... get-jabbed
Vaccine passports will make hesitant people ‘even more reluctant to get jabbed’

Data comes as No 10 vows to press on with plan to make vaccination a condition of entry for nightclubs

Imposing vaccine passports is likely to make hesitant people even more reluctant to get Covid jabs, research involving more than 16,000 people has found as Downing Street vowed to press ahead with the plan within a month.

...

The survey was carried out in April when most people were either unvaccinated or had received only one dose of a vaccine. It suggested the groups that are less likely to get vaccinated – including the young, non-white ethnicities and non-English speakers – also view vaccine passports less positively.

“This creates a risk of creating a divided society wherein the majority are relatively secure but there remain pockets of lower vaccination where outbreaks can still occur,” the authors wrote in the paper, which is currently in preprint form.

The analysis involved 16,527 people, of whom 14,543 had not yet had both vaccine doses. In this group, the vast majority (87.8%) indicated their decision on being jabbed would not be affected by the introduction of passports.

However, of the remaining 12.2%, about two-thirds suggested they would be less likely to get vaccinated if passports were introduced, while the rest said they would be more inclined. Vaccine passports were viewed less negatively by this group if they were only required for international travel rather than domestic use.
Seems an odd conclusion to me, even though it's what the pure data (as of April) suggests - there is absolutely a wider discussion to be had.

88% said they would not be affected either way if vaccination were made a pre-requisite for clubs / holidays etc - the vast majority of the would have been intending to get vaccinated otherwise, most of the rest are probably lying to themselves when answering a hypothetical versus a real-world question with direct implications.
4% have said that introducing a vaccine passport will make them more likely to get the vaccine. In reality, this number is bound to be significantly higher - as demonstrated by other countries like France, who saw a massive increase in vaccination once passports were introduced.
8% are not vaccine-hesitant, they are anti-vaxx, and there is no reaching them.

The vaccine-hesitant, are hesitant - willing to be convinced. They "just" need the right encouragement to do the right thing; passports are a part of that.
Bowing to the demands of the 8% would be letting the perfect be the enemy of the achievable.
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Puja
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Re: COVID19

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Which Tyler wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... get-jabbed
Vaccine passports will make hesitant people ‘even more reluctant to get jabbed’

Data comes as No 10 vows to press on with plan to make vaccination a condition of entry for nightclubs

Imposing vaccine passports is likely to make hesitant people even more reluctant to get Covid jabs, research involving more than 16,000 people has found as Downing Street vowed to press ahead with the plan within a month.

...

The survey was carried out in April when most people were either unvaccinated or had received only one dose of a vaccine. It suggested the groups that are less likely to get vaccinated – including the young, non-white ethnicities and non-English speakers – also view vaccine passports less positively.

“This creates a risk of creating a divided society wherein the majority are relatively secure but there remain pockets of lower vaccination where outbreaks can still occur,” the authors wrote in the paper, which is currently in preprint form.

The analysis involved 16,527 people, of whom 14,543 had not yet had both vaccine doses. In this group, the vast majority (87.8%) indicated their decision on being jabbed would not be affected by the introduction of passports.

However, of the remaining 12.2%, about two-thirds suggested they would be less likely to get vaccinated if passports were introduced, while the rest said they would be more inclined. Vaccine passports were viewed less negatively by this group if they were only required for international travel rather than domestic use.
Seems an odd conclusion to me, even though it's what the pure data (as of April) suggests - there is absolutely a wider discussion to be had.

88% said they would not be affected either way if vaccination were made a pre-requisite for clubs / holidays etc - the vast majority of the would have been intending to get vaccinated otherwise, most of the rest are probably lying to themselves when answering a hypothetical versus a real-world question with direct implications.
4% have said that introducing a vaccine passport will make them more likely to get the vaccine. In reality, this number is bound to be significantly higher - as demonstrated by other countries like France, who saw a massive increase in vaccination once passports were introduced.
8% are not vaccine-hesitant, they are anti-vaxx, and there is no reaching them.

The vaccine-hesitant, are hesitant - willing to be convinced. They "just" need the right encouragement to do the right thing; passports are a part of that.
Bowing to the demands of the 8% would be letting the perfect be the enemy of the achievable.
Agreed. What people say on a survey is different to what they'll do when it's the difference between going on holiday or not.

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Digby
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Re: COVID19

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How much virtue is there in vaccine passports if vaccinated people can contract and spread the disease? I don't much like the idea of passports on a basis of it does remove some freedoms, but I'm also not going to worry about opposing the idea if it's a genuine boost to public health, we can live happily enough with some restrictions if it helps front line workers
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Which Tyler
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Re: COVID19

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To me, that's making the perfect the enemy of the achievable.
Even with Delta, vaccines reduce spread by about 50% - which is well worth it for high risk venues (indoors and crowded). Not to mention keeping out those people who are personally at high risk (the unvaccinated).

If you then factor in that more people will get vaccinated than without passports, then that reduces spread in other areas.
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Which Tyler
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Re: COVID19

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https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/ ... infections
In a First, Randomized Study Shows That Masks Reduce COVID-19 Infections

A large study co-authored by Yale SOM’s Jason Abaluck and Mushfiq Mobarak tested the effectiveness of a mask-promotion program in Bangladesh in increasing mask use and preventing symptomatic infections. The study found that masks significantly lower symptomatic infections, especially among older people and when surgical masks are used.


In the first weeks of the COVID-19 pandemic, health authorities advised against the use of masks by the public, concerned about diverting supplies from healthcare workers and creating a false sense of security that would reduce compliance with public health recommendations like social distancing and hand washing. By April 2020, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control had reversed itself; in June, the World Health Organization followed suit. Masks were eventually adopted in much of the world. But evidence of the effectiveness of masks in preventing infection has been limited to lab experiments and healthcare settings.

Now, for the first time, a randomized trial has demonstrated the effectiveness of masks in preventing infection in a real-world community setting. A large study in Bangladesh, co-authored by Yale SOM’s Jason Abaluck and Mushfiq Mobarak, found that a campaign to promote mask-wearing reduced symptomatic infections significantly, particularly among older people and those using surgical masks.

...
Pre-print paper: https://www.poverty-action.org/publicat ... bangladesh
Last edited by Which Tyler on Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Digby
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Re: COVID19

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Which Tyler wrote:To me, that's making the perfect the enemy of the achievable.
Even with Delta, vaccines reduce spread by about 50% - which is well worth it for high risk venues (indoors and crowded). Not to mention keeping out those people who are personally at high risk (the unvaccinated).

If you then factor in that more people will get vaccinated than without passports, then that reduces spread in other areas.
I'm not saying no, merely it's a costly move to a more authoritarian style of living. So I'm wondering what the level of benefit is

Then again masks aren't exactly free, certainly not if used properly, and I'd by instinct be in favour of mask wearing in this situation
AL.
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Re: COVID19

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Digby wrote:Good news for them is it seems the premium way to go about things is get Covid (and don't suffer too badly) and then get fully vaxxed.
That's effectively what I did.... Got sick last Feb for three days (in bed and my first sick days in nearly a decade, half my department went down), then lost ALL smell and taste for three weeks (and ability to acknowledge texture/moisture etc., quite an unusual sensation believe me). Got my jags this summer.

My lungs are fucked and I get out of breath for no reason, dont get me wrong sitting on my harris for a year wont have helped but still, just this last few weeks It is marginally better. If I could try again Id have the jag first, I suspect it would have helped. I could on the other hand be lucky that's all I got, know a few people who have died directly/indirectly.
Digby
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Re: COVID19

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AL. wrote:
Digby wrote:Good news for them is it seems the premium way to go about things is get Covid (and don't suffer too badly) and then get fully vaxxed.
That's effectively what I did.... Got sick last Feb for three days (in bed and my first sick days in nearly a decade, half my department went down), then lost ALL smell and taste for three weeks (and ability to acknowledge texture/moisture etc., quite an unusual sensation believe me). Got my jags this summer.

My lungs are fucked and I get out of breath for no reason, dont get me wrong sitting on my harris for a year wont have helped but still, just this last few weeks It is marginally better. If I could try again Id have the jag first, I suspect it would have helped. I could on the other hand be lucky that's all I got, know a few people who have died directly/indirectly.

Sounds like it was worse for you than many. Calling it the premium way to go is more for those who don't have a strong reaction, it just seems overall to given slightly better immunity, which then likely starts to wane.

I didn't get the loss of sensation of texture/moisture, and I didn't lose all sense of taste/smell for that long, but I've still only got part of my sense of taste back. I also don't get out of breath for no reason, but I can't run like I did, any attempt to run for more than a few hundred metres results in wanting to stop to draw breath and to cough a lot, and last week I did some timed runs over 100m, repeat sprints, and I was struggling to get down into the 16 seconds, I did 2 runs over 20 seconds. Running the 100m seems suitable at the moment because I can finish that without wanting to stop and cough, less so if I'm running (walking?) it in 23 seconds, but it's easy to ignore wanting to cough for a few seconds
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Digby wrote:
AL. wrote:
Digby wrote:Good news for them is it seems the premium way to go about things is get Covid (and don't suffer too badly) and then get fully vaxxed.
That's effectively what I did.... Got sick last Feb for three days (in bed and my first sick days in nearly a decade, half my department went down), then lost ALL smell and taste for three weeks (and ability to acknowledge texture/moisture etc., quite an unusual sensation believe me). Got my jags this summer.

My lungs are fucked and I get out of breath for no reason, dont get me wrong sitting on my harris for a year wont have helped but still, just this last few weeks It is marginally better. If I could try again Id have the jag first, I suspect it would have helped. I could on the other hand be lucky that's all I got, know a few people who have died directly/indirectly.
Sounds like it was worse for you than many. Calling it the premium way to go is more for those who don't have a strong reaction, it just seems overall to given slightly better immunity, which then likely starts to wane.

I didn't get the loss of sensation of texture/moisture, and I didn't lose all sense of taste/smell for that long, but I've still only got part of my sense of taste back. I also don't get out of breath for no reason, but I can't run like I did, any attempt to run for more than a few hundred metres results in wanting to stop to draw breath and to cough a lot, and last week I did some timed runs over 100m, repeat sprints, and I was struggling to get down into the 16 seconds, I did 2 runs over 20 seconds. Running the 100m seems suitable at the moment because I can finish that without wanting to stop and cough, less so if I'm running (walking?) it in 23 seconds, but it's easy to ignore wanting to cough for a few seconds
Really not understanding the concept of catching Covid19 as the best strategy to get immunity to Covid19.

The whole point of immunity is to protect against Covid19. If you have to catch Covid19 as the first step in getting the best immunity, haven't you already failed? Or if you assume that Covid19 is basically harmless, what's the point of trying to get immunity to it (let alone 'premium' immunity)?

What am I missing here?
Digby
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Re: COVID19

Post by Digby »

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Digby wrote:
AL. wrote:
That's effectively what I did.... Got sick last Feb for three days (in bed and my first sick days in nearly a decade, half my department went down), then lost ALL smell and taste for three weeks (and ability to acknowledge texture/moisture etc., quite an unusual sensation believe me). Got my jags this summer.

My lungs are fucked and I get out of breath for no reason, dont get me wrong sitting on my harris for a year wont have helped but still, just this last few weeks It is marginally better. If I could try again Id have the jag first, I suspect it would have helped. I could on the other hand be lucky that's all I got, know a few people who have died directly/indirectly.
Sounds like it was worse for you than many. Calling it the premium way to go is more for those who don't have a strong reaction, it just seems overall to given slightly better immunity, which then likely starts to wane.

I didn't get the loss of sensation of texture/moisture, and I didn't lose all sense of taste/smell for that long, but I've still only got part of my sense of taste back. I also don't get out of breath for no reason, but I can't run like I did, any attempt to run for more than a few hundred metres results in wanting to stop to draw breath and to cough a lot, and last week I did some timed runs over 100m, repeat sprints, and I was struggling to get down into the 16 seconds, I did 2 runs over 20 seconds. Running the 100m seems suitable at the moment because I can finish that without wanting to stop and cough, less so if I'm running (walking?) it in 23 seconds, but it's easy to ignore wanting to cough for a few seconds
Really not understanding the concept of catching Covid19 as the best strategy to get immunity to Covid19.

The whole point of immunity is to protect against Covid19. If you have to catch Covid19 as the first step in getting the best immunity, haven't you already failed? Or if you assume that Covid19 is basically harmless, what's the point of trying to get immunity to it (let alone 'premium' immunity)?

What am I missing here?

The idea is the highest level of immunity that can be obtained comes from being double vaccinated after having already contracted the disease. That order works better it's being stated than being double vaxxed and then getting the disease.

It's not the order I think most would recommend, but it was a comment in response to some over 16s who'd put themselves in the position of contracting the disease having not been vaccinated, and I observed they could at least now max out the potential benefit.
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: COVID19

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Digby wrote:
Son of Mathonwy wrote:
Digby wrote: Sounds like it was worse for you than many. Calling it the premium way to go is more for those who don't have a strong reaction, it just seems overall to given slightly better immunity, which then likely starts to wane.

I didn't get the loss of sensation of texture/moisture, and I didn't lose all sense of taste/smell for that long, but I've still only got part of my sense of taste back. I also don't get out of breath for no reason, but I can't run like I did, any attempt to run for more than a few hundred metres results in wanting to stop to draw breath and to cough a lot, and last week I did some timed runs over 100m, repeat sprints, and I was struggling to get down into the 16 seconds, I did 2 runs over 20 seconds. Running the 100m seems suitable at the moment because I can finish that without wanting to stop and cough, less so if I'm running (walking?) it in 23 seconds, but it's easy to ignore wanting to cough for a few seconds
Really not understanding the concept of catching Covid19 as the best strategy to get immunity to Covid19.

The whole point of immunity is to protect against Covid19. If you have to catch Covid19 as the first step in getting the best immunity, haven't you already failed? Or if you assume that Covid19 is basically harmless, what's the point of trying to get immunity to it (let alone 'premium' immunity)?

What am I missing here?
The idea is the highest level of immunity that can be obtained comes from being double vaccinated after having already contracted the disease. That order works better it's being stated than being double vaxxed and then getting the disease.

It's not the order I think most would recommend, but it was a comment in response to some over 16s who'd put themselves in the position of contracting the disease having not been vaccinated, and I observed they could at least now max out the potential benefit.
Yeah, no worries, I think my only disagreement is with your choice of words, not what you're saying. Talking about this as the premium way seems like a recommendation, but you don't mean it in that way.
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Which Tyler
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Re: COVID19

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https://www.insider.com/oklahomas-emerg ... tin-2021-9

So, just in case we didn't think that the people taking horse medicine weren't idiots already.... they're failing to realise that horses aren't humans in dosage either, and are overdosing - presumably because the dosage information is assuming a 900kg horse, not a 100kg human
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Re: COVID19

Post by Digby »

I've made an alarming discovery in the last few days, though I don't know this goes straight onto the list of long Covid problems. Historically, and as with many, I've shifted to being a mouth breather when running or performing any task that gets the demand for oxygen up, but again this morning whilst sat pottering on the computer I've clocked myself mouth breathing.

Whether this is in any way Covid related I don't know, but if we get to a Logan's Run scenario mouth breathers might be the first to go, and rightly so, leaving me to have to focus more on an autonomous function than would previously have been the case.

Other than that I'm back running, slower than before but maybe it's going to take a little time to recover just from the inactivity for a few weeks, and the sense of taste/smell is nearly recovered. Things I can't taste/smell as normal are down to 3 main groups, coffee which is annoying, fish, which isn't as annoying on a daily basis but I miss, and urine, not even after eating asparagus can I really smell urine, and that's not something I miss. Sadly I can again tell if someone has rudely taken a dump in my toilet.
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Which Tyler
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Re: COVID19

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Good news y'all - this month, you can only catch covid from strangers
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Re: COVID19

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A colleague of mine had just recovered from covid when he caught norovirus. That’s just fricking miserable.
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Which Tyler
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Re: COVID19

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https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/healt ... 68354f5b05?
Covid patient dies after anti-vaxxer helps him leave hospital

Heartbreaking footage shows a 67-year-old Covid patient being convinced to leave hospital by an anti-vaxxer two days before he died.
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morepork
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Re: COVID19

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Social media are the new beer googles. Completely engineered for a potentially money making stunt enabled by and completely for social media. Credit to hospital staff in that. What a horrible situation for them. The patient was utterly and completely preyed upon by the fuckwit with the most Sardinian name ever. When is society going to reign in this malignant media platform? Facebook wants to market Instagram for children currently. Enough is enough. I’m sorry for that old fulla and his family.
paddy no 11
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Re: COVID19

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Same thing happened here, guy was 75. Investigation underway to see if a crime has been committed
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Which Tyler
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Re: COVID19

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ays-report

UK's private hospitals accept £400M a month during pandemic to treat NHS patients and help with Covid capacity.
Average 8 covid patients a day, and treat fewer NHS patients than they did before taking the extra money.
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