Anti semitism

[cashead]

Casting of Helen Mirren criticised

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-59878356

Maureen Lipman can fuck off. She also might want to rethink what she's arguing here, when it's skating so close to racial antisemitism.

Funny how she brings up Ben Kinglsey, who played a Jewish person in Schindler's List.

[cashead]

Emma Watson criticised

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... mitism-row

Well, yes, of course an Israeli government stooge would say that, when their attack lines on pro-Palestinian sentiment is to always conflate it with anti-semitism.

The most appropriate response to this kind of thing is:

[Stom]

Casting of Helen Mirren criticised

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-59878356

Maureen Lipman can fuck off. She also might want to rethink what she's arguing here, when it's skating so close to racial antisemitism.

Funny how she brings up Ben Kinglsey, who played a Jewish person in Schindler's List.

And, well, an Indian...

I found that possibly the worst example she could have picked, lol.

[Stom]

But this is the huge problem with antisemitism...

When any anti-Israeli state comments are made, they're instantly labeled antisemitic, undermining the public's belief in the actual racism. It's tragic in a way.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Emma Watson criticised

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... mitism-row

Well, yes, of course an Israeli government stooge would say that, when their attack lines on pro-Palestinian sentiment is to always conflate it with anti-semitism.

The most appropriate response to this kind of thing is:

She ought to sue.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Casting of Helen Mirren criticised

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-59878356

Maureen Lipman can fuck off. She also might want to rethink what she's arguing here, when it's skating so close to racial antisemitism.

Funny how she brings up Ben Kinglsey, who played a Jewish person in Schindler's List.

It's ridiculous. Would Lipman want Jewish actors not to be cast for non-Jewish roles? I think not because that would be antisemitic.

What she's saying is, or is getting close to, discrimination against a non-Jew ie negative treatment of a non-Jew for no other reason than she is a non-Jew. That would be racism (although I suppose the vagueness of her words makes it borderline).

[Puja]

Casting of Helen Mirren criticised

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-59878356

Maureen Lipman can fuck off. She also might want to rethink what she's arguing here, when it's skating so close to racial antisemitism.

Funny how she brings up Ben Kinglsey, who played a Jewish person in Schindler's List.

It's ridiculous. Would Lipman want Jewish actors not to be cast for non-Jewish roles? I think not because that would be antisemitic.

What she's saying is, or is getting close to, discrimination against a non-Jew ie negative treatment of a non-Jew for no other reason than she is a non-Jew. That would be racism (although I suppose the vagueness of her words makes it borderline).

There are several good reasons for some minority roles to be prioritised for actors of that minority. Out trans actors, for example, will rarely get cast in a cis role because of biases, so it feels acceptable to say that a trans role should be played by a trans actor because otherwise what else are they going to get (not to mention that Hollywood insists on casting male actors to play trans women and female actors to play trans men, as if to ram home that it doesn't consider them to really be the gender they present as and they're still a [gender] underneath the makeup). Asian actors have the same - it's rare that an Asian actor gets cast in a role that's not explicitly written as an Asian character (although that is getting better), so it's not unreasonable to get narked at Johansson or Swinton taking those roles. And white actors playing Native American or black characters brings up a whole lot of historical racism along with the above issues.

So, with the above in mind, I don't think that the general principle is necessarily wrong (or racist against white people, wth).

However, the question has to be whether Jewish people suffer the same casting discrimination that other minorities do. Jewish people are very heavily represented in the film and television industry - ironically specifically due to anti-Semitism, as acting, directing, and producing were seen as disreputable jobs in the 20s, 30s, and 40s and thus weren't an industry that bigots fought to keep Jews from being involved in - and I'd question whether Jewish actors need to have Jewish roles protected. The likes of Natalie Portman, Jake Gyllenhaal, Scarlett Johansson, and Andrew Garfield are often cast in non-Jewish roles (in fact, I didn't know any of them were Jewish before googling) and seem to be treated the same as white actors when it comes to opportunities.

So, while I don't agree with the "anyone should be allowed to play anyone; it's called acting darling, you're *pretending* to be someone else" take on the situation, I don't know how relevant it is to Jewish roles. I reserve the right to be wrong if there's something I'm not getting though.

Puja

[Puja]

Emma Watson criticised

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... mitism-row

Well, yes, of course an Israeli government stooge would say that, when their attack lines on pro-Palestinian sentiment is to always conflate it with anti-semitism.

The most appropriate response to this kind of thing is:

She ought to sue.

Streisand effect though. She's probably happier just letting everyone ignore it.

It is ridiculous though - pro-Palestine =!= anti-semitism (hells, being anti-Israel doesn't necesssrily equal that either, although you are likely to find yourself alongside a lot of anti-Semites who would be quite happy to claim you if you take that position, as Jeremy Corbyn can attest) and the frivolous flinging around of the accusation devalues it every time.

Puja

[cashead]

Maureen Lipman can fuck off. She also might want to rethink what she's arguing here, when it's skating so close to racial antisemitism.

Funny how she brings up Ben Kinglsey, who played a Jewish person in Schindler's List.

It's ridiculous. Would Lipman want Jewish actors not to be cast for non-Jewish roles? I think not because that would be antisemitic.

What she's saying is, or is getting close to, discrimination against a non-Jew ie negative treatment of a non-Jew for no other reason than she is a non-Jew. That would be racism (although I suppose the vagueness of her words makes it borderline).

There are several good reasons for some minority roles to be prioritised for actors of that minority. Out trans actors, for example, will rarely get cast in a cis role because of biases, so it feels acceptable to say that a trans role should be played by a trans actor because otherwise what else are they going to get (not to mention that Hollywood insists on casting male actors to play trans women and female actors to play trans men, as if to ram home that it doesn't consider them to really be the gender they present as and they're still a [gender] underneath the makeup). Asian actors have the same - it's rare that an Asian actor gets cast in a role that's not explicitly written as an Asian character (although that is getting better), so it's not unreasonable to get narked at Johansson or Swinton taking those roles. And white actors playing Native American or black characters brings up a whole lot of historical racism along with the above issues.

So, with the above in mind, I don't think that the general principle is necessarily wrong (or racist against white people, wth).

However, the question has to be whether Jewish people suffer the same casting discrimination that other minorities do. Jewish people are very heavily represented in the film and television industry - ironically specifically due to anti-Semitism, as acting, directing, and producing were seen as disreputable jobs in the 20s, 30s, and 40s and thus weren't an industry that bigots fought to keep Jews from being involved in - and I'd question whether Jewish actors need to have Jewish roles protected. The likes of Natalie Portman, Jake Gyllenhaal, Scarlett Johansson, and Andrew Garfield are often cast in non-Jewish roles (in fact, I didn't know any of them were Jewish before googling) and seem to be treated the same as white actors when it comes to opportunities.

So, while I don't agree with the "anyone should be allowed to play anyone; it's called acting darling, you're *pretending* to be someone else" take on the situation, I don't know how relevant it is to Jewish roles. I reserve the right to be wrong if there's something I'm not getting though.

Puja

Race and gender identity are something you're born with, religion is a choice. Unless she's suggesting that Jewish people are a distinct ethnic group, in which case she'll want to be thinking about the company she'd be keeping.

I wonder how she feels about Timothee Chalamet playing Paul Atreides. After all, it's a Jewish person playing an adherent to the Orange Catholic faith, the Bene Gesserit order, and later, the Fremen religion.

[Zhivago]

Maureen Lipman can fuck off. She also might want to rethink what she's arguing here, when it's skating so close to racial antisemitism.

Funny how she brings up Ben Kinglsey, who played a Jewish person in Schindler's List.

It's ridiculous. Would Lipman want Jewish actors not to be cast for non-Jewish roles? I think not because that would be antisemitic.

What she's saying is, or is getting close to, discrimination against a non-Jew ie negative treatment of a non-Jew for no other reason than she is a non-Jew. That would be racism (although I suppose the vagueness of her words makes it borderline).

There are several good reasons for some minority roles to be prioritised for actors of that minority. Out trans actors, for example, will rarely get cast in a cis role because of biases, so it feels acceptable to say that a trans role should be played by a trans actor because otherwise what else are they going to get (not to mention that Hollywood insists on casting male actors to play trans women and female actors to play trans men, as if to ram home that it doesn't consider them to really be the gender they present as and they're still a [gender] underneath the makeup). Asian actors have the same - it's rare that an Asian actor gets cast in a role that's not explicitly written as an Asian character (although that is getting better), so it's not unreasonable to get narked at Johansson or Swinton taking those roles. And white actors playing Native American or black characters brings up a whole lot of historical racism along with the above issues.

So, with the above in mind, I don't think that the general principle is necessarily wrong (or racist against white people, wth).

However, the question has to be whether Jewish people suffer the same casting discrimination that other minorities do. Jewish people are very heavily represented in the film and television industry - ironically specifically due to anti-Semitism, as acting, directing, and producing were seen as disreputable jobs in the 20s, 30s, and 40s and thus weren't an industry that bigots fought to keep Jews from being involved in - and I'd question whether Jewish actors need to have Jewish roles protected. The likes of Natalie Portman, Jake Gyllenhaal, Scarlett Johansson, and Andrew Garfield are often cast in non-Jewish roles (in fact, I didn't know any of them were Jewish before googling) and seem to be treated the same as white actors when it comes to opportunities.

So, while I don't agree with the "anyone should be allowed to play anyone; it's called acting darling, you're *pretending* to be someone else" take on the situation, I don't know how relevant it is to Jewish roles. I reserve the right to be wrong if there's something I'm not getting though.

Puja

Whatever 'rule' is devised, it ought to be applied universally. Which would put a lot of English actors working in Hollywood out of business. All the Russian villains in movies would need to be played by Russians, and we'd never hear unintelligible Russian ever again. etc etc etc

I rather think that the portrayal of certain ethnicities matters much more than who plays them.

[Which Tyler]

SNIP

Puja

Gotta say, I agree with this.

Representation matters.
But if your group is not struggling to be represented (and I don't think anyone can claim that Jews in Hollywood don't get a fair chance, due to their religion), then cry me a river.

Where I waver is on sexuality, where I think it's important than LGBT+ are represented, but I don't really care if they're represented by members of the community - and I'm not sure if I ought to and I'm just blind to my privilege.
It's more important to me that the part is written and acted well and respectfully.
Where I am sure, is that an actor should not lose roles as a result of coming out.

Of course, there may be an issue that a minority is so small that there isn't the talent pool available (eg, unless/until Elliot Page fully transitions, how many trans-male actors are actually good enough to play a lead role? Or would you be better having a superior actor play the role successfully? I genuinely don't know the answer there).

[Puja]

Whatever 'rule' is devised, it ought to be applied universally. Which would put a lot of English actors working in Hollywood out of business. All the Russian villains in movies would need to be played by Russians, and we'd never hear unintelligible Russian ever again. etc etc etc.

I'm sorry, but that is arrant nonsense. It's a nuanced situation and thus requires nuanced views rather than "rules should be applied universally." Quite apart from anything else, as I spent far too many words typing out, different groups are at different disadvantages and you shouldn't expect the same rule to fit them all. Equity, not equality: https://risetowin.org/what-we-do/educat ... index.html

SNIP

Puja

Gotta say, I agree with this.

Representation matters.
But if your group is not struggling to be represented (and I don't think anyone can claim that Jews in Hollywood don't get a fair chance, due to their religion), then cry me a river.

Where I waver is on sexuality, where I think it's important than LGBT+ are represented, but I don't really care if they're represented by members of the community - and I'm not sure if I ought to and I'm just blind to my privilege.
It's more important to me that the part is written and acted well and respectfully.
Where I am sure, is that an actor should not lose roles as a result of coming out.

Of course, there may be an issue that a minority is so small that there isn't the talent pool available (eg, unless/until Elliot Page fully transitions, how many trans-male actors are actually good enough to play a lead role? Or would you be better having a superior actor play the role successfully? I genuinely don't know the answer there).

I think the argument is that, without out trans actors getting cast in anything, we don't really know if there are any that are good enough to play a lead role. I'm sure that there are some out there - same as they're able to find Native American actors when they actually go looking rather than just casting for "generally tanned".

I will also note that I'm deliberately making the distinction of "out" there, because I wouldn't be surprised if there were a famous actor or two out there who is trans and keeping it very quiet.

Race and gender identity are something you're born with, religion is a choice. Unless she's suggesting that Jewish people are a distinct ethnic group, in which case she'll want to be thinking about the company she'd be keeping.

While I don't particularly want the company of facists either, there does exist an ethnic group of Jewish people which overlaps with the religious group of Jewish people and there are people who identify as ethnically Jewish without being religious. It's a fuzzy grouping, but all ethnic groups are mostly figments of our collective imaginations, with just a few common genes for 23 and Me to categorise you by.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

I think the argument is that, without out trans actors getting cast in anything, we don't really know if there are any that are good enough to play a lead role. I'm sure that there are some out there - same as they're able to find Native American actors when they actually go looking rather than just casting for "generally tanned".

Yep, it's why I don't claim any answers for my explicitly illustrative example.
I suspect they key is to get more actors from the smaller (and larger TBH) minorities into more minor roles and less known properties enlarging the available talent pool, but there's probably also an element of luck in someone with the natural talent getting into the profession, and being the right personality fit to blaze the trail.
O still don't have an answer though.

I will also note that I'm deliberately making the distinction of "out" there, because I wouldn't be surprised if there were a famous actor or two out there who is trans and keeping it very quiet.

There may well be, but... [A] By my understanding, they'd need to be late arrivals to acting to have fully transitioned before getting any roles that the press couldn't find (happy to be wrong, but doesn't it take many years and many operations to transition to the point that you wouldn't be spotted a mile away under TV / film lighting conditions and that number of eyes watching you?)
If so, and given that were talking about representation here, they're not doing anything for representation by hiding their identity (not that I'd blame them in the slightest for not wanting to be the trail blazer)

[Puja]

I will also note that I'm deliberately making the distinction of "out" there, because I wouldn't be surprised if there were a famous actor or two out there who is trans and keeping it very quiet.

There may well be, but... [A] By my understanding, they'd need to be late arrivals to acting to have fully transitioned before getting any roles that the press couldn't find (happy to be wrong, but doesn't it take many years and many operations to transition to the point that you wouldn't be spotted a mile away under TV / film lighting conditions and that number of eyes watching you?)
If so, and given that were talking about representation here, they're not doing anything for representation by hiding their identity (not that I'd blame them in the slightest for not wanting to be the trail blazer)

You can be happy, as you are wrong. It's part of the issue with the way the media and television frame trans people as all easily identifiable - the "man in a dress" stereotype. There are some trans people who do require many years and many operations to unquestionably pass as their gender, but I personally know quite a few who I wouldn't've known if they hadn't told me and there are probably more that I know and don't know that they're trans because it's never been any of my business.

Puja

[Zhivago]

Whatever 'rule' is devised, it ought to be applied universally. Which would put a lot of English actors working in Hollywood out of business. All the Russian villains in movies would need to be played by Russians, and we'd never hear unintelligible Russian ever again. etc etc etc.

I'm sorry, but that is arrant nonsense. It's a nuanced situation and thus requires nuanced views rather than "rules should be applied universally." Quite apart from anything else, as I spent far too many words typing out, different groups are at different disadvantages and you shouldn't expect the same rule to fit them all. Equity, not equality: https://risetowin.org/what-we-do/educat ... index.html

What's the point of that link even? Surely the rule in the example in the link is 'everyone should be able to see the game'. That rule is applied universally. Just like I'm saying - if this is an issue, then the rule might be 'ethnic minority characters should be played by actors of the same ethnicity'. I'm just saying that such a rule should be applied across all ethnic minorities, and not be a special rule created for one ethnic group just because they might have a louder voice.

[Which Tyler]

You can be happy, as you are wrong. It's part of the issue with the way the media and television frame trans people as all easily identifiable - the "man in a dress" stereotype. There are some trans people who do require many years and many operations to unquestionably pass as their gender, but I personally know quite a few who I wouldn't've known if they hadn't told me and there are probably more that I know and don't know that they're trans because it's never been any of my business.

Fair enough, and thank you

[Puja]

Whatever 'rule' is devised, it ought to be applied universally. Which would put a lot of English actors working in Hollywood out of business. All the Russian villains in movies would need to be played by Russians, and we'd never hear unintelligible Russian ever again. etc etc etc.

I'm sorry, but that is arrant nonsense. It's a nuanced situation and thus requires nuanced views rather than "rules should be applied universally." Quite apart from anything else, as I spent far too many words typing out, different groups are at different disadvantages and you shouldn't expect the same rule to fit them all. Equity, not equality: https://risetowin.org/what-we-do/educat ... index.html

What's the point of that link even? Surely the rule in the example in the link is 'everyone should be able to see the game'. That rule is applied universally. Just like I'm saying - if this is an issue, then the rule might be 'ethnic minority characters should be played by actors of the same ethnicity'. I'm just saying that such a rule should be applied across all ethnic minorities, and not be a special rule created for one ethnic group just because they might have a louder voice.

The point of that link is that applying a blanket rule to everyone doesn't result in fairness, as different people/groups have different needs. It's not a complicated concept.

Puja

[Zhivago]

I'm sorry, but that is arrant nonsense. It's a nuanced situation and thus requires nuanced views rather than "rules should be applied universally." Quite apart from anything else, as I spent far too many words typing out, different groups are at different disadvantages and you shouldn't expect the same rule to fit them all. Equity, not equality: https://risetowin.org/what-we-do/educat ... index.html

What's the point of that link even? Surely the rule in the example in the link is 'everyone should be able to see the game'. That rule is applied universally. Just like I'm saying - if this is an issue, then the rule might be 'ethnic minority characters should be played by actors of the same ethnicity'. I'm just saying that such a rule should be applied across all ethnic minorities, and not be a special rule created for one ethnic group just because they might have a louder voice.

The point of that link is that applying a blanket rule to everyone doesn't result in fairness, as different people/groups have different needs. It's not a complicated concept.

Puja

It's a lot more fair than saying one ethnic group has exclusive rights to their ethnic roles, but another ethnic group isn't afforded such a right. What you're arguing for is making different rules for different ethnic groups based on arbitrary criteria. That is the opposite of fair, and also not practical.

Anyway, the whole idea is garbage. As long as the acting itself is not offensive, then who does the acting should not matter.

[cashead]

I rather think that the portrayal of certain ethnicities matters much more than who plays them.

[cashead]

What's the point of that link even? Surely the rule in the example in the link is 'everyone should be able to see the game'. That rule is applied universally. Just like I'm saying - if this is an issue, then the rule might be 'ethnic minority characters should be played by actors of the same ethnicity'. I'm just saying that such a rule should be applied across all ethnic minorities, and not be a special rule created for one ethnic group just because they might have a louder voice.

As someone who is of an ethnicity that is often whitewashed onscreen, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

[Zhivago]

What's the point of that link even? Surely the rule in the example in the link is 'everyone should be able to see the game'. That rule is applied universally. Just like I'm saying - if this is an issue, then the rule might be 'ethnic minority characters should be played by actors of the same ethnicity'. I'm just saying that such a rule should be applied across all ethnic minorities, and not be a special rule created for one ethnic group just because they might have a louder voice.

As someone who is of an ethnicity that is often whitewashed onscreen, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Argument from authority? Just like Puja? Don't you fellas have actual arguments instead of 'i'm x minority therefore only my opinion is valid'

If a character is written as a stereotype, it doesn't matter a jot if the actor is of the same ethnicity, it's still written stereotypically.

[Puja]

What's the point of that link even? Surely the rule in the example in the link is 'everyone should be able to see the game'. That rule is applied universally. Just like I'm saying - if this is an issue, then the rule might be 'ethnic minority characters should be played by actors of the same ethnicity'. I'm just saying that such a rule should be applied across all ethnic minorities, and not be a special rule created for one ethnic group just because they might have a louder voice.

As someone who is of an ethnicity that is often whitewashed onscreen, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Argument from authority? Just like Puja? Don't you fellas have actual arguments instead of 'i'm x minority therefore only my opinion is valid'

If a character is written as a stereotype, it doesn't matter a jot if the actor is of the same ethnicity, it's still written stereotypically.

And there you go again trying to apply a blanket black or white rule to situations which aren't black and white. Sometimes arguments from authority are a logical fallacy, and sometimes they're because someone is actually in a position to know more than you.

You know, saying "I'm not intelligent enough to cope with anything that requires the slightest bit of nuance so I'm going to pretend that the same rules are equally valid everywhere," might not be the flex that you think it is, champ. I couldn't remember why I'd blocked you, so I took it off - thanks for the reminder.

Puja

[cashead]

What's the point of that link even? Surely the rule in the example in the link is 'everyone should be able to see the game'. That rule is applied universally. Just like I'm saying - if this is an issue, then the rule might be 'ethnic minority characters should be played by actors of the same ethnicity'. I'm just saying that such a rule should be applied across all ethnic minorities, and not be a special rule created for one ethnic group just because they might have a louder voice.

As someone who is of an ethnicity that is often whitewashed onscreen, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Argument from authority? Just like Puja? Don't you fellas have actual arguments instead of 'i'm x minority therefore only my opinion is valid'

If a character is written as a stereotype, it doesn't matter a jot if the actor is of the same ethnicity, it's still written stereotypically.

You don't spend much time talking with people of colour or members of vulnerable communities like trans folk, do you?

The fact that you can't comprehend how representation matters, and why it's important to include and represent diverse perspectives and lived experiences, and to give POC and trans performers the opportunities to normalise vulnerable social groups tells us a lot about you, pal.

In other words:

You know, saying "I'm not intelligent enough to cope with anything that requires the slightest bit of nuance so I'm going to pretend that the same rules are equally valid everywhere," might not be the flex that you think it is, champ. I couldn't remember why I'd blocked you, so I took it off - thanks for the reminder.

Puja

[Zhivago]

As someone who is of an ethnicity that is often whitewashed onscreen, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Argument from authority? Just like Puja? Don't you fellas have actual arguments instead of 'i'm x minority therefore only my opinion is valid'

If a character is written as a stereotype, it doesn't matter a jot if the actor is of the same ethnicity, it's still written stereotypically.

And there you go again trying to apply a blanket black or white rule to situations which aren't black and white. Sometimes arguments from authority are a logical fallacy, and sometimes they're because someone is actually in a position to know more than you.

You know, saying "I'm not intelligent enough to cope with anything that requires the slightest bit of nuance so I'm going to pretend that the same rules are equally valid everywhere," might not be the flex that you think it is, champ. I couldn't remember why I'd blocked you, so I took it off - thanks for the reminder.

Puja

No - they're always a logical fallacy, and lazy. Do you really think you convince anyone with it? You're much better off arguing your point than attacking the person. You're more likely to get somewhere. I'm receptive to new ideas if they convince me - the difference between debate and dialectic. I always prefer dialectic.

If what I'm saying is so offensive then you should probably just try to have me banned, but blocking me says more about you than it does about me.

[Zhivago]

As someone who is of an ethnicity that is often whitewashed onscreen, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Argument from authority? Just like Puja? Don't you fellas have actual arguments instead of 'i'm x minority therefore only my opinion is valid'

If a character is written as a stereotype, it doesn't matter a jot if the actor is of the same ethnicity, it's still written stereotypically.

You don't spend much time talking with people of colour or members of vulnerable communities like trans folk, do you?

The fact that you can't comprehend how representation matters, and why it's important to include and represent diverse perspectives and lived experiences, and to give POC and trans performers the opportunities to normalise vulnerable social groups tells us a lot about you, pal.

In other words:

You know, saying "I'm not intelligent enough to cope with anything that requires the slightest bit of nuance so I'm going to pretend that the same rules are equally valid everywhere," might not be the flex that you think it is, champ. I couldn't remember why I'd blocked you, so I took it off - thanks for the reminder.

Puja

Not the same such communities as you, true. There's a lot of slavophobia and sinophobia in the world at the moment, and I spend a lot of time with people from these slavic and asian communities. Whether you'd classify them as vulnerable, I don't know. But they suffer plenty of discrimination, and generally don't have as large a voice as other communities might have.

I can use an example from a recent TV series. Emily in Paris had a Ukrainian character with terrible English and a predilection for shoplifting. The character is played by a Ukrainian actress. The writing and directing is at fault, not the casting. This is where the attention should be aimed.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59855440