European Cup format

[Puja]

So, I think I've got a handle on how this stupid European Cup thing works now and I've got a major problem with it. The top 8 from each pool goes through to the Round of 16 and the top 4 from each pool gets home advantage, with sufficiently high seeding getting you a home quarter and then home semi. So far, so hoopy.

The issue I've got is that you're only playing two teams in this "group" stage and who you're drawn against makes a massive difference. Leinster have a free 10 points from getting to play Bath for 50% of their pool games, so they're pretty much guaranteed a top seed if they can win one game against Montpellier (which, given how Exeter put them away, isn't unlikely). Whereas Leicester have to play Bordeaux and Connacht, where there's sod all chance of a big victory to get in bonus points and even winning 3/4 will make it difficult to get a home knockout game.

It was always thus to some extent, given whoever was in the pool with Zebre had a better chance of a home quarter, but that was ameliorated by having 3 pool opponents and that winning your pool gave you a better than average chance of securing a home draw. You were competing against the teams that you were playing against, so a win for you was a loss for one of your competitors, and topping your group was the important factor. Now, rather than a tough away win in Bordeaux allowing us to take control of our group, it's now just a 3 point no BP victory that gets us midtable.

Puja

[ad_tigger]

Could be worse, you could be 12 points up with one minute to go and a second XV player on an adjoining pitch gets injured forcing you to stop playing for a while and jog up and down. Then at the point of restarting the ref says 'next points win' and lobs the ball to their fly-half who happens to be stood on his own on your 22. I guess that reply should really go in the other sports thread, but I'm still a little angry.

[padprop]

Could be worse, you could be 12 points up with one minute to go and a second XV player on an adjoining pitch gets injured forcing you to stop playing for a while and jog up and down. Then at the point of restarting the ref says 'next points win' and lobs the ball to their fly-half who happens to be stood on his own on your 22. I guess that reply should really go in the other sports thread, but I'm still a little angry.

Similarly, you could be 12 seconds ahead in a winner-takes-all Formula 1 race, where the referee then says "Next lap wins!" when you are on 30-lap old heavy tyres. Seems to be the weekend of miss-justices!

[FKAS]

I dunno I think there's a significant benefit to a hard won victory away in France in round 1. Means that by the time round 4 comes around there's a much greater chance that by then the French club will have given up and be sending a much weaker squad, French teams don't travel well at the best of times.

[Cameo]

To be honest, ever since they started tweaking with the old Heineken Cup they seem to have made it worse.

I lose track of what the benefits were meant to be, but I do remember the challenge cup was going to become a big deal and TV companies would be fighting over it...

[fivepointer]

Just seen this -
"From January 15, anyone playing rugby in France - “professional or otherwise” - will have to be vaccinated. So, too, anyone watching rugby in stadiums in France"

Might cause a problem for one or two of our clubs and potentially England who travel to Paris for the 6N match.

[Timbo]

Just seen this -
"From January 15, anyone playing rugby in France - “professional or otherwise” - will have to be vaccinated. So, too, anyone watching rugby in stadiums in France"

Might cause a problem for one or two of our clubs and potentially England who travel to Paris for the 6N match.

And if it’s still the case, the World Cup could be virtually untenable! Some of the pacific island nations have loads of players who are against vaccination.

[Mellsblue]

Just seen this -
"From January 15, anyone playing rugby in France - “professional or otherwise” - will have to be vaccinated. So, too, anyone watching rugby in stadiums in France"

Might cause a problem for one or two of our clubs and potentially England who travel to Paris for the 6N match.

And if it’s still the case, the World Cup could be virtually untenable! Some of the pacific island nations have loads of players who are against vaccination.

Yep. I spoke to a member of the England Rugby League board a few weeks ago and they said one of the biggest challenges around covid was convincing Pacific Islanders to get jabbed.

[Puja]

Just seen this -
"From January 15, anyone playing rugby in France - “professional or otherwise” - will have to be vaccinated. So, too, anyone watching rugby in stadiums in France"

Might cause a problem for one or two of our clubs and potentially England who travel to Paris for the 6N match.

That will be *fascinating* to see which players are mysteriously unavailable when a game in France comes up.

Puja

[Puja]

EPCR have finally bowed to the inevitable and said that the "postponed" games from December are now cancelled. The've given everyoe involved a 0-0 draw, which is a great result for some and a pretty crappy one for others. Here are the affected fixtures:

Champions Cup

Bath Rugby v La Rochelle
Sale Sharks v Clermont Auvergne
Scarlets v Bordeaux-Begles
Toulouse v Wasps
Stade Francais v Bristol Bears

Challenge Cup

Worcester Warriors v Biarritz
London Irish v Brive

Puja

[Peej]

France has changed their rules from Friday morning, meaning arrivals don't need to isolate for 48 hours. But they still need negative tests and to be fully vaccinated.

[Puja]

France has changed their rules from Friday morning, meaning arrivals don't need to isolate for 48 hours. But they still need negative tests and to be fully vaccinated.

Gods, I hope they stick to the vaccine rules even through the 6N. I have absolutely no sympathy for anybody missing out because they've gOt ConCeRnS and wAnT tO dO tHeIr OwN ReSeaRcH, like they can somehow know better than the entire scientific community and the literal hundreds of millions of practical examples of the vaccine not causing infertility or 5G or whatever.

Puja

[Oakboy]

In today's DT, Healy suggests that covid (particularly, its curbing of fan travel) has seriously damaged the competitition.

I am half-hearted about watching European matches and only feel interest when English teams are involved. Ten years back, I loved watching top European games no matter what nationality the teams were. I've reached the stage where I look forward to non-European weekends far more.

I can't explain why apart from just not seeing the European standard as markedly superior whereas that was the case allegedly some time back. I have not seen a European game in recent times that came close to the Premiership play-offs at the end of last season. I'm not a Harlequins fan but I thought their rugby took the game to a new level.

[Puja]

In today's DT, Healy suggests that covid (particularly, its curbing of fan travel) has seriously damaged the competitition.

I am half-hearted about watching European matches and only feel interest when English teams are involved. Ten years back, I loved watching top European games no matter what nationality the teams were. I've reached the stage where I look forward to non-European weekends far more.

I can't explain why apart from just not seeing the European standard as markedly superior whereas that was the case allegedly some time back. I have not seen a European game in recent times that came close to the Premiership play-offs at the end of last season. I'm not a Harlequins fan but I thought their rugby took the game to a new level.

I know exactly what you mean. A few years back, when there were rumblings about cancelling Europe so we could have less international clashes, I was virulently against it. Now I'm looking at the European weekends with a shrug and a meh and thinking it might be an acceptable sacrifice.

COVID hasn't helped, but it's more the stupid format and the fact that French teams you play either aren't taking it seriously or have wheeled out their £29m international squad to annihilate you. English clubs too appear to treat it as a secondary priority unless they end up in the quarters.

Puja

[Puja]

Decent results for the English sides so far. Three teams qualified (and two guaranteed a home knock-out game) and Exeter pretty close to qualifying.

Puja

[Cameo]

In today's DT, Healy suggests that covid (particularly, its curbing of fan travel) has seriously damaged the competitition.

I am half-hearted about watching European matches and only feel interest when English teams are involved. Ten years back, I loved watching top European games no matter what nationality the teams were. I've reached the stage where I look forward to non-European weekends far more.

I can't explain why apart from just not seeing the European standard as markedly superior whereas that was the case allegedly some time back. I have not seen a European game in recent times that came close to the Premiership play-offs at the end of last season. I'm not a Harlequins fan but I thought their rugby took the game to a new level.

I know exactly what you mean. A few years back, when there were rumblings about cancelling Europe so we could have less international clashes, I was virulently against it. Now I'm looking at the European weekends with a shrug and a meh and thinking it might be an acceptable sacrifice.

COVID hasn't helped, but it's more the stupid format and the fact that French teams you play either aren't taking it seriously or have wheeled out their £29m international squad to annihilate you. English clubs too appear to treat it as a secondary priority unless they end up in the quarters.

Puja

Yeah, something's gone horribly wrong though I think it started before Covid. Heineken Cup weekends used to feel like must watch TV. I would desperately look for streams for at least 4 or 5 "massive" games. Every game seemed important (apart from those with the two Italian teams back then).

That changed when they changed the format and has gone completely with the latest changes. I don't even bother to work out what each team needs now. I watch a few games and hope teams I like do well but I'm just not as invested (and, clearly, nor are some of the teams).

[fivepointer]

Leinster-Montpelier was a waste of everybodys time yesterday, but there have been some good games and seeing how the English clubs fare against top opposition is insightful.

[Oakboy]

Leinster-Montpelier was a waste of everybodys time yesterday, but there have been some good games and seeing how the English clubs fare against top opposition is insightful.

5p, that sounds like damning with faint praise. You are right that there are SOME good games but a decade or so back EVERY game seemed important (and certainly worth watching). I'd favour cutting the number of teams in both competitions by half as a first step. Bigger is obviously not better.

[fivepointer]

Dunno that every game a decade ago was worth watching.
I'd agree that the sparkle has gone out of the competition to a degree. I do think that covid has a lot to do with that and full stadiums with travelling support would add greater energy to the matches.
I can see the appeal of a shorter comp with the best, say, 16-20 teams involved might be a more satisfying arrangement.

[FKAS]

In today's DT, Healy suggests that covid (particularly, its curbing of fan travel) has seriously damaged the competitition.

I am half-hearted about watching European matches and only feel interest when English teams are involved. Ten years back, I loved watching top European games no matter what nationality the teams were. I've reached the stage where I look forward to non-European weekends far more.

I can't explain why apart from just not seeing the European standard as markedly superior whereas that was the case allegedly some time back. I have not seen a European game in recent times that came close to the Premiership play-offs at the end of last season. I'm not a Harlequins fan but I thought their rugby took the game to a new level.

I know exactly what you mean. A few years back, when there were rumblings about cancelling Europe so we could have less international clashes, I was virulently against it. Now I'm looking at the European weekends with a shrug and a meh and thinking it might be an acceptable sacrifice.

COVID hasn't helped, but it's more the stupid format and the fact that French teams you play either aren't taking it seriously or have wheeled out their £29m international squad to annihilate you. English clubs too appear to treat it as a secondary priority unless they end up in the quarters.

Puja

Yeah, something's gone horribly wrong though I think it started before Covid. Heineken Cup weekends used to feel like must watch TV. I would desperately look for streams for at least 4 or 5 "massive" games. Every game seemed important (apart from those with the two Italian teams back then).

That changed when they changed the format and has gone completely with the latest changes. I don't even bother to work out what each team needs now. I watch a few games and hope teams I like do well but I'm just not as invested (and, clearly, nor are some of the teams).

I felt with the first change in format where less teams were included and therefore the weaker teams ousted every game was a big game. Slightly unfortunate for me personally that Tigers were on teh decline by that point.

Problem in the current system is that nobody really understands it. There's teams like Bristol who had 7 points after the first two rounds without playing a game. It's all a bit meh and hard to get excited about. Maybe once the Covid cloud finally fecks off it'll work better.

[Timbo]

I liked the iteration of the tournament we had between 2015-2020. 20 teams, 5 groups, group winners and 3 best runner ups qualified. There were a few dead rubbers at the end of the group phase, but still loads to play for.

[Peej]

So the round of 16 is now played over two legs? Utter shite

[Cameo]

So the round of 16 is now played over two legs? Utter shite

It is isn't it. Especially because at that stage there are likely quite big disparities in a lot of the matchups.

Also, if you are going to have those extra two games before a quarter final, couldn't you just add two games to the group stages and have proper groups where tes play against the same teams?

[Puja]

So the round of 16 is now played over two legs? Utter shite

That startled me too. I had assumed that finishing in the top 4 would get you a home game. Wasn't the whole point of this ridiculous format that there would be fewer games in the season?

To make it even more ridiculous, there's 16 teams involved - there's absolutely zero chance that one of the first rounds won't be COVIDed off, making the second game even more pointless than normal as one side has to make up an arbitrary 28 point deficit. About as fair and sporting as a Max Verstappen title win.

Puja

[FKAS]

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Covid call offs. A 28-0 pretty much destroys the contest so I can't see them doing that but at the same time the cynic in me thinks that the majority of call offs were by the away team. How many so we think ensured they got their own gate receipts in and then were less bothered about traveling. If the 28-0 is removed you'd have to ensure that all testing was overseen by an independent agency, imagine a first round upset and then a second round game called off for Covid sending the under dog through. It could be bedlam.