Team vs Italy

[FKAS]

Borthwick rotates JVP and Youngs quite heavily. I'd expect Sanderson to do something similar. Sarries loved that sort of thing and Sanderson knows that if Sale get into the playoffs they'll need all their big guns at their peak.

[Oakboy]

I just mentioned Farrell as (I think) Oakboy had mentioned pilfering him from the Irish. Agreed Ireland have an ideal setup that really seems to make the most of their resources. I'd think Farrell has learned a lot from 2015 then getting an extended apprenticeship with Schmidt, but I couldn't say whether he's a "top" coach or not.

It's a moot point either way. First we get to see whether Ireland have peaked a year too soon for the RWC.

I think I referred to the settled Irish situation with small tweaks taking them through to the RWC - in contrast to us where we are not settled in selection or playing style. Scrumhead makes a valid point about picking from so few teams. I'd not want Farrell necessarily but I'd take him in a heartbeat in preference to Jones.

Both are coaching on foreign soil in cultures needing personal adjustment. Farrell, whatever his background/history is making a fair fist of it. Jones seems aloof from the need to adjust. That comes across in his communication, management and results, especially in the last couple of seasons.

[p/d]

Farrell ‘appears’ to have put together a very settled and effective coaching team. This seems to reflect what we are seeing on the pitch.

In contrast we have a swing door policy both in coaching and player retention

[fivepointer]

Ireland have been impressive.
Farrell may have been dealt a good hand with Leinster being so dominant and the Irish system geared towards success at international level, but he still has to play the cards right.

[Spiffy]

I just mentioned Farrell as (I think) Oakboy had mentioned pilfering him from the Irish. Agreed Ireland have an ideal setup that really seems to make the most of their resources. I'd think Farrell has learned a lot from 2015 then getting an extended apprenticeship with Schmidt, but I couldn't say whether he's a "top" coach or not.

It's a moot point either way. First we get to see whether Ireland have peaked a year too soon for the RWC.

Farrell has been coaching for some time now and has been improving steadily all the while. He has obviously absorbed much from his time with Schmidt and the Lions and is now putting it to good use, with fresh new approaches of his own now the regimented Schmidt has gone. I think it would OK to call him a "top" coach now. He has got Ireland playing with levels of skill and self confidence that they lacked before. (He also has the advantage of a good player pool in Ireland at present.)

[Banquo]

With Faf fit again though, is Quirke going to start enough games to suggest he should be starting for England?

Barbeary played the full game on Saturday for Wasps. Certainly a lower intensity than Test rugby, but he's not injured. The Italy game is one of those where you think, 'why have these players in the squad if you aren't going to play them against the weakest opponent?' But then Jones normally doubles down after a loss. And to be fair, while I was one of those dismissive of Ludlam last week I thought he played pretty well on Saturday.

...and I hear Barbeary was poor on Saturday. TBH, there were so many new combos on Saturday, if no established player is fit for Italy, you need to run the combos again

....brand new international second row (albeit some club time), brand new back row, brand new (ish) centre combo, and possibly a brand new back three. Its quite stark when you write it

He was, yes. But one bad game and all that.

I take your point about some of the new units, but a lot of these individual players have a lot of experience - ranging from domestic titles, Euro titles, to international and Lions caps.

…well yes, but it’s a tad different playing with new combos and positions. TBH it’s not anything like an excuse, and I only realised when I actually wrote the post…. For example, Isiekwe hasn’t played that much at second row in the last couple of years, Slade very little at 12 esp internationally, his partner at 13 who he hasn’t played centre with and has hardly started there for England internationally, Malins at 14 when iirc he played mostly 11 for Brizzle when not at 15, Marchant who is a part time win, and a wholly new backrow. Ambitious team tbh.

[Banquo]

Was Barbeary poor? Looked a bit fatigued in defence once or twice, but then so did a few other Wasps players.

In attack he was offering himself up a lot, and whilst he didn't ahve too many obvious eye catching breaks, it was normally due to Exeter putting 3 players into every tackle on him, which helps the team regardless.

Stats have him down as 24 carries, 66 meters, 3 defenders beaten. Made a dozen tackles as well, but missed 6. As I said though, from watching there was quite a few misses that will have worried the coaching staff I reckon.

I didn’t see him, I was parroting another Wasps fan who said he was careless in possession.

[Raggs]

Was Barbeary poor? Looked a bit fatigued in defence once or twice, but then so did a few other Wasps players.

In attack he was offering himself up a lot, and whilst he didn't ahve too many obvious eye catching breaks, it was normally due to Exeter putting 3 players into every tackle on him, which helps the team regardless.

Stats have him down as 24 carries, 66 meters, 3 defenders beaten. Made a dozen tackles as well, but missed 6. As I said though, from watching there was quite a few misses that will have worried the coaching staff I reckon.

I didn’t see him, I was parroting another Wasps fan who said he was careless in possession.

Think he lost the ball a couple of times? But again, with 24 carries, and being massively targeted, it's not that big a surprise. I was shocked to see just how many carries he'd put in though, that's pretty insane for someone who knows they're going to get hit hard.

[jngf]

Ludlum was pick of our back row and deserves to keep his place at 6. For me Simmonds is incredible talent but playing him at 8 isn’t bringing that talent out at this level - I think Curry should be given a bench spot for Italy game and Simmonds started at 7 just to see how this fairs ( and Curry brought on if it missfires) Dombrandt for me to start at 8.

[Mikey Brown]

So… anyone read any good books lately?

[badback]

Not a book but I thought this was interesting from the Beeb

Warburton questioned why England rely so heavily on a player who has had numerous long injury lay-offs throughout his career.

He said: "It is ridiculous. A country who has got 12 pro teams, three players per team contracted full-time who can play 12, so 36 inside centres.

"Let's say six aren't English qualified. You have got 30 inside centres professionally contracted and they can't find someone to replace Manu Tuilagi. It's inexplicable."

Inexplicable is harsh. Tuilagi is an unusual talent after all. But surely we must be able to find some other good international quality centre?

Mind you Slade and Marchant looked good when they were played together.

[Spiffy]

Ludlum was pick of our back row and deserves to keep his place at 6. For me Simmonds is incredible talent but playing him at 8 isn’t bringing that talent out at this level - I think Curry should be given a bench spot for Italy game and Simmonds started at 7 just to see how this fairs ( and Curry brought on if it missfires) Dombrandt for me to start at 8.

If you were a true, well informed and interested fan, you would not constantly get Ludlam's name wrong.
You lose more and more credibility every time you post your own version, and show how out of touch you really are.
You seem to love him so much, yet can't spell his name.
Why not show the lad some respect by getting it right. Plenty of posters here have made it easy for you. Just read the thread and carefully copy his real name one letter at a time.
It's honestly not that difficult. G'wan - give it a try.

[Which Tyler]

Not a book but I thought this was interesting from the Beeb

Warburton questioned why England rely so heavily on a player who has had numerous long injury lay-offs throughout his career.

He said: "It is ridiculous. A country who has got 12 pro teams, three players per team contracted full-time who can play 12, so 36 inside centres.

"Let's say six aren't English qualified. You have got 30 inside centres professionally contracted and they can't find someone to replace Manu Tuilagi. It's inexplicable."

Inexplicable is harsh. Tuilagi is an unusual talent after all. But surely we must be able to find some other good international quality centre?

Mind you Slade and Marchant looked good when they were played together.

it's quite impressive how much he managed to get wrong in there.
We don't have 12 pro terms.
They don't have 3 full-time 12s each.
It's not 6 out of the not-36 who aren't eligible.
It's not Tuilagi we were trying to replace at 12.

Beyond that, as you say, Manu is a once in a generation talent - any teams going to miss him, but I don't think England could be said to rely on him.
On top of that, of course, is the logical fallacy that depth = exceptional at the top. Even if we took his match's to be accurate, have 30 full-time IC, of whom 6 are first choice, and 2 injured, leaves with 4 first choice IC at club level, and 24 who aren't good enough at club level, so why should they be expected to just step in for a once in a generation player with minimal drop-off?

[Oakboy]

I'd give Warburton a little credit without disagreeing on how unique Tuilagi is.

My beef with his constant in/out selection has been twofold: 1. That management pick either him or Farrell in the 12 shirt if possible, 2. Tuilagi back in till the next injury can't be good for the squad as a whole.

If Warburton was implying that we should ignore Tuilagi, not pick Farrell at 12 and put everything into developing another solution I'd agree. We should have done it years ago.

[Banquo]

I'd give Warburton a little credit without disagreeing on how unique Tuilagi is.

My beef with his constant in/out selection has been twofold: 1. That management pick either him or Farrell in the 12 shirt if possible, 2. Tuilagi back in till the next injury can't be good for the squad as a whole.

If Warburton was implying that we should ignore Tuilagi, not pick Farrell at 12 and put everything into developing another solution I'd agree. We should have done it years ago.

Had Warburton said...why don't England produce more top class players across the board, it would have been a better point. And imo, the answer is in the 12/13 pro clubs, a discussion we've had before, a lot.

[p/d]

Ludlum was pick of our back row and deserves to keep his place at 6. For me Simmonds is incredible talent but playing him at 8 isn’t bringing that talent out at this level - I think Curry should be given a bench spot for Italy game and Simmonds started at 7 just to see how this fairs ( and Curry brought on if it missfires) Dombrandt for me to start at 8.

If you were a true, well informed and interested fan, you would not constantly get Ludlam's name wrong.
You lose more and more credibility every time you post your own version, and show how out of touch you really are.
You seem to love him so much, yet can't spell his name.
Why not show the lad some respect by getting it right. Plenty of posters here have made it easy for you. Just read the thread and carefully copy his real name one letter at a time.
It's honestly not that difficult. G'wan - give it a try.

In my early 20’s I was an avid reader of his books

By the way it is a dislike of Currie that brings new names to the table

[Raggs]

Why on earth would you count anyone who's 2nd or 3rd choice 12 at their club? They simply aren't going to be good enough if they aren't good enough to be a regular prem player.

And then as pointed out, it's a whole lot more than just 6 who aren't EQP!

Wales were a different side when they could play Warbs, but he was out a hell of a lot of the time. I'm sure he was pleased that he wasn't just passed over when fit!

[Mellsblue]

I can only assume it’s a subconscious desire/need to see Booj tear up test rugby.

[Banquo]

Why on earth would you count anyone who's 2nd or 3rd choice 12 at their club? They simply aren't going to be good enough if they aren't good enough to be a regular prem player.

And then as pointed out, it's a whole lot more than just 6 who aren't EQP!

Wales were a different side when they could play Warbs, but he was out a hell of a lot of the time. I'm sure he was pleased that he wasn't just passed over when fit!

Might be worth pointing out that Wales' 12 on Sat was from Sarries

[Peej]

And in a related point that Scotland's was from Australia.

[Which Tyler]

Just out of interest - who's the first choice 12 for each of the not-12 Premiership clubs?
Bath: Redpath - Sco
Bristol: Leiua ? - Ton
Exeter: Devoto - Eng
Gloucester: Atkinson - Eng
Harlequins: Esterhuizen - RSA
Leicester: Kelly - Eng
LIrish: Van Rensburg - RSA
Newcastle: Lucock - Eng
Northampton: Hutchinson - Sco
Sale: RJvR - RSA
Saracens: Tompkins - Wal
Wasps: Gopperth / Le Bourgeois - NZ / Eng
Worcester: Venter RSA

So Devoto, Atkinson, Kelly, Lucock and possibly Le Bourgoise as full-time ICs who are first choice for their club.
Atkinson is in the wider squad.
Devoto has been looked at and found wanting.
Lucock isn't even close to be mentioned as an outside bet.
Le Bourgeois isn't actually first choice.

By process of elimination, Kelly should start for England.

[Raggs]

I'd say Mills is probably Wasps first choice, it's just he's always broken.

I'd have loved to have seen Kelly involved, he's a very handy player. Wish Devoto had got more time too, but just never seemed to be in the frame.

[Peej]

Leuia is Samoan, and Piers O'Conor, who is ENG qualified, has started more games at 12 this season to be fair (though last season it was Piutau - TONG)

For Wasps, Mills would be in the mix and probably would be first choice if he wasn't made of glass.

[Puja]

By process of elimination, Kelly should start for England.

Tbf, Kelly has really kicked on this season. Already on an upward curve after being rescued from the rejects pile by Borthwick, but he appears to have taken his England experience in the summer and decided he wants more of that. Really good sign. I don't know he's international quality quite yet, but at the rate he's progressing, I'm now pretty confident he'll get there.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

Why on earth would you count anyone who's 2nd or 3rd choice 12 at their club? They simply aren't going to be good enough if they aren't good enough to be a regular prem player.

And then as pointed out, it's a whole lot more than just 6 who aren't EQP!

Wales were a different side when they could play Warbs, but he was out a hell of a lot of the time. I'm sure he was pleased that he wasn't just passed over when fit!

In fairness, if Warburton wasn't available we had a pretty handy replacement in Tipuric. Tuilagi is an incredible player who can terrorise a defence, but its a fair comment on who you pick and how you play if he isnt available. A comparison with Wales would have been who did we pick when Dan Lydiate wasn't available given his central role. We would move Warburton across but the manner in which we played differed (some would say for the better but horses for courses in my opinion).