An Italian Job

[Sandydragon]

And Biggar as captain throwing his boots off and almost storming off the pitch at the end of the game wasn’t a great sight.

[Wallpaperman]

Didn’t hear him congratulate Italy on their win when he was interviewed, either.

He did say that some players have played their last games for Wales - don’t think it’s up to him !

[Sourdust]

I don't see how it's possible, in the modern environment, for one professional team to underestimate another to the point of complacency, yet that is what all appearances suggest that we did.

I also accept that we are idiots on sofas, and the Wales coaches are experienced professionals. But how many times can we LOOK like we don't have a clue how to attack, without drifting towards the conclusion that we do not, in fact, have a clue how to attack?

I know the problems go deeper than the changing room, and I've resisted attacking this coaching team directly. But that's 15 6N games played, and only 6 wins. While we have arguably built on our depth, it has seemed rather more like spreading the quality more thinly and evenly, than actually gaining much overall. And no-one, but no-one, outside of the team can see what the philosophy and /or the plan actually is.

[Sandydragon]

Privac keeps referring to the RWC and it’s almost like everything before is just an audition, an opportunity to test new ideas. In his third six nations we have only just settled on our preferred scrum half and still have no idea what our best centre partnership is.

This constant tinkering just doesn’t work. Yes we have players with more caps and I suppose you could suggest there is some strength in depth but that’s useless if you don’t have the cohesion in place.

Something needs to change radically and soon.

[normanski]

Something needs to change radically and soon.

I guess this is the crux of the matter. The WRU needs to get a grip and hold an in-depth review bringing all parties, including the club owners to formulate a plan of action everyone can get behind. Even if that means heads have ro roll.

The setup we have at the moment does not seem fit for purpose and this is exemplified by yesterday’s debacle. Aren’t there coaches around who could have warned Pivac about too many changes; aren’t there top managers at the WRU who could have put their feet down and called out the insanity of so many changes upon the team.

We have had a miserable season and should have put out the strongest team possible yesterday to build on what was starting to become apparent with our displays against England and France and finish with a resounding win.

What did we learn that we didn’t already know by starting our reserve front row? What did we learn by starting AWJ, great servant that he’s been, after he’s been out for four months and hardly played for almost a year.

It’s just so upsetting that we let slip a golden opportunity to finish with a win.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Stats are pretty even, although their ball handling must have been great because we only had one scrum from their knock-on.

As for the players...

Adams was obviously fantastic, 1 try and 1 try-saving tackle, 37 metres, 12 tackles, 2 missed. (Although he had 4 penalties)
LRZ was okay: 72 metres (although he didn't seem that effective with it), 3 tackles, 2 missed.

Halaholo was useless: 7 metres, 3 tackles, 1 missed.
Watkin was very good: 40 metres, 5 tackles, 1 missed. And 1 try (although that's such an deviation from his usual game that I am doubting my memory).

Lake was excellent: 19 metres, 9 tackles, 1 missed. And only 1 lineout missed out of 14. And a try.

2nd row were unspectacular, but for AWJs first day back at the office, he was fine:
Beard: 0 metres, 9 tackles, 0 missed.
AWJ: 3 metres, 8 tackles, 1 missed.
Rowlands didn't do anything fantastic when he came on.

Seb Davies not so great: 12 metres, 6 tackles, 2 missed.
Navidi was quality 11 metres, 13 tackles, 0 missed.
Faletau is a machine: 40 metres, 12 tackles, 0 missed.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstat ... gue=180659

What to do for the future? Obviously our ability to create tries is questionable. (And we don't seem to get up to speed in the first 20 minutes.)

We have few effective ball carriers. We lost ground too easily when we had the ball (although Italy's defence struggled when we put together a series of phases with go-forward and/or a bit of variety).

So...
Lake is a must now.
AWJ needs to earn his place back, let's see what he can do for the Ospreys now.
Seb is not an effective 6. If that is ever to work, he needs to improve at the regional level.
Till then Navidi (failing that, Moriarty should be 6).
We need Basham or Jac Morgan at 7, we need to make ground.
(Things will be interesting if Tipuric comes back in good shape though.)
Excellent as Biggar has been this season, he doesn't fit the plan. Pivac needs to bring on a player with more variety in attack, and more speed. Patchell gets my vote, but I'd be happy with Anscombe.
Halaholo needs to show some regional form before getting anywhere near the 23.
For me, 12 would be chosen from Tompkins, Scott Williams and Johnny Williams.
And please, please let North come back soon.
Back three would be Adams, LRZ and Liam Williams. Although we don't lose too much with McNicholl as a back-up FB.

We need our forwards (and othet s, as appropriate) to carry more powerfully. If they can't do it, unless they bring something else that is pretty essential, we need to bring others on who can.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The loss seems particularly bad since England and Scotland both failed to get a point from their games. The door to 3rd place was wide open.

If there's any consolation, had the 6N table not been an issue, we would have won.

The real issue is not so much that Italy won, it's that they were close enough to be able to.

[Spiffy]

Classy gesture by Josh Adams to give little Capuozzo his MOTM award, especially since the little fella had skinned him to lay on Italy's winning try.

[Sandydragon]

The loss seems particularly bad since England and Scotland both failed to get a point from their games. The door to 3rd place was wide open.

If there's any consolation, had the 6N table not been an issue, we would have won.

The real issue is not so much that Italy won, it's that they were close enough to be able to.

I think if we had played the game to win rather than win with a bonus point we would have done so. For all Italy played well we turned down about six points on very kick able penalties.those plus our try would have made the first half very even and the two tries in the second would have been more of a hurdle for the Italians to come back from. We seemed set on trying to go for a try scoring bonanza when we haven’t done that all season.

[Sandydragon]

Stats are pretty even, although their ball handling must have been great because we only had one scrum from their knock-on.

As for the players...

Adams was obviously fantastic, 1 try and 1 try-saving tackle, 37 metres, 12 tackles, 2 missed. (Although he had 4 penalties)
LRZ was okay: 72 metres (although he didn't seem that effective with it), 3 tackles, 2 missed.

Halaholo was useless: 7 metres, 3 tackles, 1 missed.
Watkin was very good: 40 metres, 5 tackles, 1 missed. And 1 try (although that's such an deviation from his usual game that I am doubting my memory).

Lake was excellent: 19 metres, 9 tackles, 1 missed. And only 1 lineout missed out of 14. And a try.

2nd row were unspectacular, but for AWJs first day back at the office, he was fine:
Beard: 0 metres, 9 tackles, 0 missed.
AWJ: 3 metres, 8 tackles, 1 missed.
Rowlands didn't do anything fantastic when he came on.

Seb Davies not so great: 12 metres, 6 tackles, 2 missed.
Navidi was quality 11 metres, 13 tackles, 0 missed.
Faletau is a machine: 40 metres, 12 tackles, 0 missed.

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstat ... gue=180659

What to do for the future? Obviously our ability to create tries is questionable. (And we don't seem to get up to speed in the first 20 minutes.)

We have few effective ball carriers. We lost ground too easily when we had the ball (although Italy's defence struggled when we put together a series of phases with go-forward and/or a bit of variety).

So...
Lake is a must now.
AWJ needs to earn his place back, let's see what he can do for the Ospreys now.
Seb is not an effective 6. If that is ever to work, he needs to improve at the regional level.
Till then Navidi (failing that, Moriarty should be 6).
We need Basham or Jac Morgan at 7, we need to make ground.
(Things will be interesting if Tipuric comes back in good shape though.)
Excellent as Biggar has been this season, he doesn't fit the plan. Pivac needs to bring on a player with more variety in attack, and more speed. Patchell gets my vote, but I'd be happy with Anscombe.
Halaholo needs to show some regional form before getting anywhere near the 23.
For me, 12 would be chosen from Tompkins, Scott Williams and Johnny Williams.
And please, please let North come back soon.
Back three would be Adams, LRZ and Liam Williams. Although we don't lose too much with McNicholl as a back-up FB.

We need our forwards (and othet s, as appropriate) to carry more powerfully. If they can't do it, unless they bring something else that is pretty essential, we need to bring others on who can.

Out attack improved no end when we had a scrum half not delivering Hail Mary passes six feet above Biggars head.
Navidi is crucial if we want to play with the ball as his breakdown work is invaluable. But I’d definitely have him at blindside with a recognised open side.

Seb Davies should be an emergency stopgap only. Yes he’s mobile but he doesn’t add the value that anrecognised back rower would.

[MrK]

My take on this

Front Row - Pivac has an issue with Smith and Rob Evans hasnt been fit but both of those would be an improvement on what we have as I think would Domachowski, Lake has improved his darts for front ball but theres obviously no confidence in back ball, Francis is solid and dependable but offers little in the loose but I'll take that - strength at 3 is a concern - Brown and Lewis both have work ons

Second Row - it wasnt AWJs fault he was put into that team with no game time, thats all Pivac, but we have to move on, neither he or Beard offer any go forward at all, Id prefer a Rowlands / Seb combination and we need to look at Carter and Rhys Davies

Back row - at 6, seb had a decent game against France but I just dont see him as a 6 - if Pivac wants a lumper we need to look at Tshinuza, SLH and maybe Will Griffiths , at 7, We need a ball winner, Morgan, Refel and Botham make the best impact at rucks and although Basham has looked good Id focus on these 3 for SA, #8 is a problem, Faletau is streets ahead, its then Wainwright and Moriaty, I just cant see Morris getting selected

9 - Williams is #1 choice, Id actually have Hardy in the 23 now and Im not bothered which of Webb or G Davies is the back up

10 - Wales played some of their best rugby when Anscombe started and BIggar was on the bench to close games out, Im a huge fan of Biggar as a professional, hes just not the 10 I would pick for Wales if we want to win games with offence - Jarrod has his faults, but he needs to be included, Im a Patchell fan but he needs a run of games at 10 - dont know where I stand on Sheedy/Anscombe at this point

Centre - I was disappointed with Halaholo yesterday and at 31 Im not sure he is the future, a Tompkins / North combo could be very good - Watkins is going to be in the mix but hes had a lot of chances and never really shines - Is Owen Lane a potential here?

Back 3 - Ioan Lloyd has to be in here, as does Zammit and Adams, we need line breakers, Liam has had a poor tournament but he has credit, Protheroe is another who could be looked at as is Conbeer, Holmes falling out with Ryan is unfortunate as he would be a great Bench Option for Wing / FB

My Squad for SA - assuming fit and working towards RWC

Props - Jones, Thomas, Domachowski, Francis, WGJ, Lewis
Hooker - Lake, Elias, Owens
2nd Row - Rowlands, Beard, Davies
Back Row - Tshinuza, SLH, Reffel, Morgan, Botham, Faletau, Navidi
9 - WIlliams, Hardy, Davies
10 - Evans, Anscombe, Biggar
Centres - Tompkins, North, Watkins, Lane
Back 3 - Adams, LRZ, Conbeer, Williams, LLoyd

My preferred 23

Williams, LRZ, North, Tompkins, Adams, Evans, Williams
Jones, Owens, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, SLH, Botham, Faletau
B: Lake, Domachowski, Lewis, Davies, Navidi, Hardy, Biggar, Lloyd

[Sandydragon]

We need some forwards who can make an impact. Rob Evans would seem ideal if fully fit. Carre would be Good if his scrummaging better.

Id like to see Scott Williams and North in the centres. But for some reason Privac doesn't seem taken with Scott. In lieu of him I'd go for Tompkins alongside North as well. I like Aneurin Owen as a long term bet, but he isn't one for the moment.

LRZ has to feature. He has some areas to work on but equally he is a quality player with ball in hand and won't learn by not playing. Few players bring the excitement he does and we need to look at how to get him some space.

Adam is a quality winger and should stay on the wing. Cuthbert had a good six nationals although it was disappointing how often he got turned over after making a break. If we are going to select him then he needs support (one feels that Tipuric would have been on his shoulder). I can't really see past Liam Williams for full back at the moment.

I'd like to see a fly half other than Biggar get an opportunity. Biggar is such a competitor and he deserves his 100 caps for effort alone. But I can't help but think that we need a more gifted attacking fly half if we are going to make the most of our backline. I don't think Dan Carter in his prime could have done much with the utter crap Biggar was receiving at times but equally I want a fly half who can get us playing good attacking rugby again. Biggar on the bench with perhaps Anscombe starting is a decent option; maybe Patchell but I'd like to see Jarod Evans get some opportunity.

Tomos WIlliams at scrum half with Hardy as backup.

Hopefully we can see a bit of Christ at blindside and see if Privac can unearth his monster blindside. Otherwise I'd stick with Navidi for the moment and hope Tipuric is back soon. If not then Basham.

Beard and Rowlands have begun to gel as a combination. Rowlands has been carrying well which is a bonus - I'd like to see more of BEard with ball in hand and making some hard yards, but his maul defence is a plus by itself.

We have missed Owens, but ELias and Lake have both matured. I think Lake is here to stay in some capacity, still some work on his throwing in but he offers us so much around the park.

Assuming fitness, for the South African tour I'd like to see:

Thomas
Lake
Francis
Beard
Rowlands
Navidi
Basham
Faletau
Williams
Anscombe
LRZ
Tompkins
North (when is he back?)
Adams
Liam

But all of this is irrelevant if they play with as little passion and cohesion as they did yesterday.

[whatisthejava]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8d1b ... 6f27c31b78

This just reads like an internal argument in camp but neither side willing to shoot the other in the face publically.

[normanski]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8d1b ... 6f27c31b78

This just reads like an internal argument in camp but neither side willing to shoot the other in the face publically.

Shouldn’t this be on the Scotland forum?

[whatisthejava]

Apologies, wrong thread.

[newgalesurf]

If this signals an end to the experimmenting and we can work towards a settled side to build up to the World Cup, then I can accept the loss and give the benefit of the doubt

But I am concerned it is not. Also tough tour to SA, then another 6N after whatever the Autumn throws at us Will not get easier from here on out.

[Son of Mathonwy]

If this signals an end to the experimmenting and we can work towards a settled side to build up to the World Cup, then I can accept the loss and give the benefit of the doubt

But I am concerned it is not. Also tough tour to SA, then another 6N after whatever the Autumn throws at us Will not get easier from here on out.

The SA tour will offer ample opportunity for experimentation coz no one will expect us to win a single match.

Not that I'm completely against experimenting . . . we need to see how Christ plays, for example. Ratti too. But from the bench, please.

[normanski]

Apologies, wrong thread.

Apology accepted! Easily done.

[Sandydragon]

Apologies, wrong thread.

FWIW I think you’re right.

[Sandydragon]

If this signals an end to the experimmenting and we can work towards a settled side to build up to the World Cup, then I can accept the loss and give the benefit of the doubt

But I am concerned it is not. Also tough tour to SA, then another 6N after whatever the Autumn throws at us Will not get easier from here on out.

The SA tour will offer ample opportunity for experimentation coz no one will expect us to win a single match.

Not that I'm completely against experimenting . . . we need to see how Christ plays, for example. Ratti too. But from the bench, please.

Or at least from a position where they are coming into an otherwise stable team.