Change needed for Welsh rugby

[Son of Mathonwy]

Some (fairly random) suggestions for how to improve Welsh rugby:

1) it seems control of the WRU is disfunctional. As the 320 member clubs have the real control, the interests of small local clubs take precedence over the interests of regional and national rugby. Surely this can't be good. This control structure needs to change.
Suggestion: since Welsh rugby union is considered a national asset, perhaps the WRU could be nationalised? (And the hotel sold off.)

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... c-23457471

2) The development of young players must be improved, and school rugby joined up better to academy and club rugby. Suggestion: could Premiership rugby be forced to play at least a certain number of young players in each match? (eg 3 under 20, 6 in total under 23?)

3) The school year skews the development of sportspeople by giving an advantage to those born earlier in the school year, who are hence more physically mature than their peers. This means the system encourages mediocre Autumn-born kids and misses more talented Summer-born. For example, in the current Welsh squad of 38, 26 were born in the first half of the school year, only 12 in the second. So (all else being equal, IF these numbers are representative of the overall picture) somewhere out there are 7 men, born from Mar-Aug, who had more potential than the 7 weakest in the squad born in Sep-Feb. These 7 are either in different sports now, or perhaps never become professionals at all, being discouraged in school. The system is missing talent.
Suggestion: we need to ensure than school-age players are trained and selected (where possible) strictly by age, not by school year (or calendar year of birth, or any other arbitrary criteria).

[Sandydragon]

I’d never considered the school age thing before. That is interesting.

Regarding the rest of it:

Why the hell are we building a hotel? Is it really going to provide that much income to offset the lack of investment now?

We can’t go back to the old club system. Diluting talent won’t work.

We need to stop bitching about the URC. I’m not a great fan of South African teams being included as it makes the whole thing a bit odd. My preference is for a GB and Ireland league but since that won’t happen anytime soon we need to make the best. Since all of our regions are currently getting stuffed by everyone I don’t think we can argue that the league doesn’t prepare players properly. The Irish certainly don’t have a problem there.

We should get all four regions owned by the WRU.

All pro rugby is controlled by a separate body and the amateur clubs cannot interfere.

Rehung the funding to put more towards pro rugby and fund the regions properly.

All regions buy into the welsh way of playing. All also buy into welsh fitness training.

I don’t think we should be removing or reducing the 60 cap rule. At the moment it might be tempting to see players playing for better teams but that isn’t necessarily the best for welsh rugby.

Simples. Just need the amateur clubs to vote for less money and influence and we can all be laughing.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I’d never considered the school age thing before. That is interesting.

Regarding the rest of it:

Why the hell are we building a hotel? Is it really going to provide that much income to offset the lack of investment now?

We can’t go back to the old club system. Diluting talent won’t work.

We need to stop bitching about the URC. I’m not a great fan of South African teams being included as it makes the whole thing a bit odd. My preference is for a GB and Ireland league but since that won’t happen anytime soon we need to make the best. Since all of our regions are currently getting stuffed by everyone I don’t think we can argue that the league doesn’t prepare players properly. The Irish certainly don’t have a problem there.

We should get all four regions owned by the WRU.

All pro rugby is controlled by a separate body and the amateur clubs cannot interfere.

Rehung the funding to put more towards pro rugby and fund the regions properly.

All regions buy into the welsh way of playing. All also buy into welsh fitness training.

I don’t think we should be removing or reducing the 60 cap rule. At the moment it might be tempting to see players playing for better teams but that isn’t necessarily the best for welsh rugby.

Simples. Just need the amateur clubs to vote for less money and influence and we can all be laughing.

Yeah, the hotel. There's so much that can be said about this:
1) It hows the WRU's lack of confidence in the future of Welsh rugby, and in their own competence in directing it, that they would want to diversify into property.
2) This decision might make sense for an owner-run business, where the enterprise is really an investment portfolio for the owner eg as Alan Sugar went into property, or Elon Musk invested in cryptocurrency. But this is a business whose purpose is not to generate profit for investors, it's to make Welsh Rugby Union the best it can be.
3) Also the decision reflects the influence of the smaller clubs - they see property as a more reliable investment than professional rugby (where £1m can be lost on the decision of a ref). They may be right, but that's why they need to be separated from the professional game.
4) Finally, even if it made sense for the WRU to move into property (for a more reliable income), it's still a punt to put bet on a single property, rather than a portfolio.

Yes, I have my doubts about the SA teams in the URC. Especially after the recent thrashings. But whatever the URC is, we need to step up to that level. We can hardly say that it isn't a challenge for our teams.

Yes, separate professional rugby from amateur.

Yes, bring the regions into WRU ownership (or at least, effective control). Then if Pivac wants to see Seb at 6 or Adams or :North at 13, then that's where they'll play for their clubs. And fitness and tactics can be aligned with Wales.

Agreed with the 60 cap rule - it works fine. Webb was let down but that was how they introduced it, not a problem with the rule itself.

The reasons I suggest nationalising the whole thing are:
1) For Wales, rugby union is the thing that brings us together. It must be run with a mandate to maximize the potential of Welsh rugby, with the Welsh people as the stakeholders.
2) Enforced nationalisation might be the only way to get the amateur clubs' hands off the controls.
3) I'm not saying the WRU should become a branch of government, but the people, hence the state, should be the owner.

[Sandydragon]

I like your analysis about the hotel, I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Again, they are thinking about their own incomes, not the good of the wider game.

I'm not sure I'd call your play nationalisation but there is something in making the game accountable to the Welsh people. At the moment its all about the clubs reps who are like turkeys trying to avoid Christmas. The problem I have with this is that where is the incentive for change? Graham Price listed the various reviews into Welsh rugby in the Fail today and Moffett is calling for the regions to be disbanded and for the return of the super-clubs. I don't think the amateur clubs will care greatly if the regions ditched all pretence at being regions, but they aren't going to vote to limit their own power. But short of the pro teams rebelling and setting up their own entity, how do you get to that state where there is a clear separation and the pro game can manage itself, both internationally and domestically? We need some far sighted people in Welsh committee rooms but I just don't see that happening. Even if the WRU were able to buy the regions and run them centrally, theres no guarantee that the funding would be any better.

Its all so very depressing.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I like your analysis about the hotel, I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Again, they are thinking about their own incomes, not the good of the wider game.

I'm not sure I'd call your play nationalisation but there is something in making the game accountable to the Welsh people. At the moment its all about the clubs reps who are like turkeys trying to avoid Christmas. The problem I have with this is that where is the incentive for change? Graham Price listed the various reviews into Welsh rugby in the Fail today and Moffett is calling for the regions to be disbanded and for the return of the super-clubs. I don't think the amateur clubs will care greatly if the regions ditched all pretence at being regions, but they aren't going to vote to limit their own power. But short of the pro teams rebelling and setting up their own entity, how do you get to that state where there is a clear separation and the pro game can manage itself, both internationally and domestically? We need some far sighted people in Welsh committee rooms but I just don't see that happening. Even if the WRU were able to buy the regions and run them centrally, theres no guarantee that the funding would be any better.

Its all so very depressing.

Good to see Moffett sort-of admitting to a mistake (ie a mistake in not understanding how parochial Welsh rugby support is), but I'm not impressed with his 'solutions'. Essentially 1) rebrand the regions as clubs and 2) turn the UFC back into the Celtic League. I have no idea why 1) is going to increase support for the Cardiff, Llanelli and Newport, since that's basically what they are now. And the Ospreys ... ditch Neath supporters in the hope of getting more Swansea fans in ... I don't really see it being any better. And 2), I'm not sure we have the power to do that (although it does look like the inclusion of SA has been a disastrous mistake for the Welsh regions).

As for the amateur tail wagging the professional dog ... short of an act of Sennedd to take the WRU out of their hands, perhaps the only thing that could really work is an agreement to split the WRU into two bodies, professional and amateur, and the 'PWRU' to generously fund the 'AWRU' in perpetuity in return for them relinquishing control. But I think they like the power and perks too much to agree to such a deal. I suppose, if the relevant board members were offered large enough 'bonuses', it might fly ...

[Sandydragon]

Ditching the south Africans isn’t going to happen unless it suddenly becomes unprofitable. And actually it’s not as if we had decades of opposition to the Irish and Scottish sides that we have diluted somehow. The south African teams offer plenty of competition and the travelling is a pain but they don’t make the league any less cohesive due to their inclusion.

I think it’s a fair point that the league is too big now and it’s not the simple thing it once was.

[Son of Mathonwy]

It won't be good for Welsh rugby if all our regions are at the bottom of the table (because of the inclusion of 4 strong SA teams). A few years back at least one or other of the regions was competitive.

I just hope we can keep SA out of the 6N.

As for the WRU, the situation could be fixed but I don't think the necessary structural changes will be made. There will be some tinkering. And our national tram will stay sort-of competitive. But most likely there will be a slow decline.

Still, at least they'll have a nice hotel.

[Sandydragon]

It won't be good for Welsh rugby if all our regions are at the bottom of the table (because of the inclusion of 4 strong SA teams). A few years back at least one or other of the regions was competitive.

I just hope we can keep SA out of the 6N.

As for the WRU, the situation could be fixed but I don't think the necessary structural changes will be made. There will be some tinkering. And our national tram will stay sort-of competitive. But most likely there will be a slow decline.

Still, at least they'll have a nice hotel.

Or we end up with our best players overseas, like Argentina used to be, and hope for the best.

Or the union go for a 2-2 funding model with the regions which they might get some approval for. But thats a lot of disenfranchised rugby supporters.

[normanski]

We can only hope that we can field a strong squad out in SA. Pivac has tinkered and tinkered with his selections ending in the Italian debacle and gives the impression he just doesn’t know his first choice team of starters or his first choices for the bench.

The only thing, perhaps, going in his favour, is that the coaches have run their eyes over a wide squad of players who have gained valuable international experience. How many can make the grade remains to be seen.

I was so impressed by Wales Women yesterday. At half time the Irish looked as if they were on the road to another big win but what a second half turnaround! A dominant line out and a far superior scrum and maul underlined the adage: forwards win matches but backs decide by how much.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Could be worse. We could have been thrashed at home by the Barbarians.

[Sandydragon]

Harsh but funny.

Although the way we were playing in the 6N that outcome would be entirely possible

[Puja]

Could be worse. We could have been thrashed at home by the Barbarians.

14-man Barbarians, please. We need to make sure to get every bit of the embarrassment properly registered.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Could be worse. We could have been thrashed at home by the Barbarians.

14-man Barbarians, please. We need to make sure to get every bit of the embarrassment properly registered.

Puja

Excellent post. I wholeheartedly agree.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Harsh but funny.

Although the way we were playing in the 6N that outcome would be entirely possible

Yeah, I sort of thought that. And yet, on the other hand when the whole French team (rather than this French-flavoured Baa-baas outfit) played us, they just got a narrow victory.

Still, it does show that the WRU isn't the only poorly run union.

[Numbers]

Some (fairly random) suggestions for how to improve Welsh rugby:

1) it seems control of the WRU is disfunctional. As the 320 member clubs have the real control, the interests of small local clubs take precedence over the interests of regional and national rugby. Surely this can't be good. This control structure needs to change.
Suggestion: since Welsh rugby union is considered a national asset, perhaps the WRU could be nationalised? (And the hotel sold off.)

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... c-23457471

2) The development of young players must be improved, and school rugby joined up better to academy and club rugby. Suggestion: could Premiership rugby be forced to play at least a certain number of young players in each match? (eg 3 under 20, 6 in total under 23?)

3) The school year skews the development of sportspeople by giving an advantage to those born earlier in the school year, who are hence more physically mature than their peers. This means the system encourages mediocre Autumn-born kids and misses more talented Summer-born. For example, in the current Welsh squad of 38, 26 were born in the first half of the school year, only 12 in the second. So (all else being equal, IF these numbers are representative of the overall picture) somewhere out there are 7 men, born from Mar-Aug, who had more potential than the 7 weakest in the squad born in Sep-Feb. These 7 are either in different sports now, or perhaps never become professionals at all, being discouraged in school. The system is missing talent.
Suggestion: we need to ensure than school-age players are trained and selected (where possible) strictly by age, not by school year (or calendar year of birth, or any other arbitrary criteria).

I would contend that the issue is with some people maturing quicker than others, if you have someone who has gone through puberty by the age of 12 they are going to be bigger than someone who doesn't go through it until years later, I don't see this as a big issue tbh, it's the transition between school/youth rugby to adult rugby that needs to be managed more closely imo.

[Puja]

Some (fairly random) suggestions for how to improve Welsh rugby:

1) it seems control of the WRU is disfunctional. As the 320 member clubs have the real control, the interests of small local clubs take precedence over the interests of regional and national rugby. Surely this can't be good. This control structure needs to change.
Suggestion: since Welsh rugby union is considered a national asset, perhaps the WRU could be nationalised? (And the hotel sold off.)

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... c-23457471

2) The development of young players must be improved, and school rugby joined up better to academy and club rugby. Suggestion: could Premiership rugby be forced to play at least a certain number of young players in each match? (eg 3 under 20, 6 in total under 23?)

3) The school year skews the development of sportspeople by giving an advantage to those born earlier in the school year, who are hence more physically mature than their peers. This means the system encourages mediocre Autumn-born kids and misses more talented Summer-born. For example, in the current Welsh squad of 38, 26 were born in the first half of the school year, only 12 in the second. So (all else being equal, IF these numbers are representative of the overall picture) somewhere out there are 7 men, born from Mar-Aug, who had more potential than the 7 weakest in the squad born in Sep-Feb. These 7 are either in different sports now, or perhaps never become professionals at all, being discouraged in school. The system is missing talent.
Suggestion: we need to ensure than school-age players are trained and selected (where possible) strictly by age, not by school year (or calendar year of birth, or any other arbitrary criteria).

I would contend that the issue is with some people maturing quicker than others, if you have someone who has gone through puberty by the age of 12 they are going to be bigger than someone who doesn't go through it until years later, I don't see this as a big issue tbh, it's the transition between school/youth rugby to adult rugby that needs to be managed more closely imo.

New Zealand do it by weight, don't they? That would seem to be the most sensible from a rugby-playing perspective, but you obviously have the impediment in this country that school years won't all have their PE lessons at the same time, so there's no way to mix-and-match people from different school years.

Puja

[Numbers]

Some (fairly random) suggestions for how to improve Welsh rugby:

1) it seems control of the WRU is disfunctional. As the 320 member clubs have the real control, the interests of small local clubs take precedence over the interests of regional and national rugby. Surely this can't be good. This control structure needs to change.
Suggestion: since Welsh rugby union is considered a national asset, perhaps the WRU could be nationalised? (And the hotel sold off.)

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... c-23457471

2) The development of young players must be improved, and school rugby joined up better to academy and club rugby. Suggestion: could Premiership rugby be forced to play at least a certain number of young players in each match? (eg 3 under 20, 6 in total under 23?)

3) The school year skews the development of sportspeople by giving an advantage to those born earlier in the school year, who are hence more physically mature than their peers. This means the system encourages mediocre Autumn-born kids and misses more talented Summer-born. For example, in the current Welsh squad of 38, 26 were born in the first half of the school year, only 12 in the second. So (all else being equal, IF these numbers are representative of the overall picture) somewhere out there are 7 men, born from Mar-Aug, who had more potential than the 7 weakest in the squad born in Sep-Feb. These 7 are either in different sports now, or perhaps never become professionals at all, being discouraged in school. The system is missing talent.
Suggestion: we need to ensure than school-age players are trained and selected (where possible) strictly by age, not by school year (or calendar year of birth, or any other arbitrary criteria).

I would contend that the issue is with some people maturing quicker than others, if you have someone who has gone through puberty by the age of 12 they are going to be bigger than someone who doesn't go through it until years later, I don't see this as a big issue tbh, it's the transition between school/youth rugby to adult rugby that needs to be managed more closely imo.

New Zealand do it by weight, don't they? That would seem to be the most sensible from a rugby-playing perspective, but you obviously have the impediment in this country that school years won't all have their PE lessons at the same time, so there's no way to mix-and-match people from different school years.

Puja

I was going to suggest that, I suppose it could be implemented at club level rather than in a school environment.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Weight, actual age, anything other than school year. A disadvantage of weight is that it's something you could cheat/temporarily fix (like boxers before a fight). Agreed there's not much you can do with PE lessons, but after school clubs should avoid selection by school year if possible.

[Numbers]

Weight, actual age, anything other than school year. A disadvantage of weight is that it's something you could cheat/temporarily fix (like boxers before a fight). Agreed there's not much you can do with PE lessons, but after school clubs should avoid selection by school year if possible.

Not sure what your point is regarding school years, if you do it by age all your doing is changing the peramters to the calendar year rather then the school year, it's counterintuitive.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Weight, actual age, anything other than school year. A disadvantage of weight is that it's something you could cheat/temporarily fix (like boxers before a fight). Agreed there's not much you can do with PE lessons, but after school clubs should avoid selection by school year if possible.

Not sure what your point is regarding school years, if you do it by age all your doing is changing the peramters to the calendar year rather then the school year, it's counterintuitive.

It's not calendar year, it's age.

The point is that everyone's school year runs from September to August. That means that kids born closer to the start of the period will always be older than their school year peers, putting (for example) September born kids at a big advantage compared with August born at all times. (This is all exactly the same if we use calendar year, except the greatest advantage goes to January born kids, the worst disadvantage to December born.)

If we use actual age, each child will move up to the new group on their birthday, so this will naturally be spread through the year, at least in theory giving no advantage to any particular month of birth. (Reality isn't perfect, of course, and there will be events that fall on certain dates each year in which kids whose birthdays fall just after have the greatest advantage.)

[Sandydragon]

Weight, actual age, anything other than school year. A disadvantage of weight is that it's something you could cheat/temporarily fix (like boxers before a fight). Agreed there's not much you can do with PE lessons, but after school clubs should avoid selection by school year if possible.

Not sure what your point is regarding school years, if you do it by age all your doing is changing the peramters to the calendar year rather then the school year, it's counterintuitive.

It's not calendar year, it's age.

The point is that everyone's school year runs from September to August. That means that kids born closer to the start of the period will always be older than their school year peers, putting (for example) September born kids at a big advantage compared with August born at all times. (This is all exactly the same if we use calendar year, except the greatest advantage goes to January born kids, the worst disadvantage to December born.)

If we use actual age, each child will move up to the new group on their birthday, so this will naturally be spread through the year, at least in theory giving no advantage to any particular month of birth. (Reality isn't perfect, of course, and there will be events that fall on certain dates each year in which kids whose birthdays fall just after have the greatest advantage.)

All good points. In addition new need to ensure that schools are giving children a taste of rugby )in a safe and controlled way) so they can decide whether they want to play the game or not. A fair few teachers are becoming nervous about teaching it as part of the normal curriculum due to health concerns. Even tag rugby would be something to build on.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Nice to see the Welsh government putting pressure on the WRU. More of this please!

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... y-26060584

[Sandydragon]

Nice to see the Welsh government putting pressure on the WRU. More of this please!

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... y-26060584

It's about time. Perhaps this is the issue that the Welsh government feel that can intervene on. But the WRU board has been a joke for years and it's time for a huge overhaul. For such a large business to be governed so poorly is a joke and there are too many on there feathering their own nests.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Nice to see the Welsh government putting pressure on the WRU. More of this please!

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... y-26060584

It's about time. Perhaps this is the issue that the Welsh government feel that can intervene on. But the WRU board has been a joke for years and it's time for a huge overhaul. For such a large business to be governed so poorly is a joke and there are too many on there feathering their own nests.

Yep. The welsh government ought to take action - rugby union is symbolic of Wales and a serious part of national pride - and it's being driven into the ground.