England Training Squad - Now Featuring Both New and Old Messiahs

[FKAS]

Mostly its fine.
I would have liked to see Ribbans included and i think Murley is a better all round wing than Lynagh. Like the selection of Joseph and its good to see Dingwall back in. The 3 SH's are spot on. Dont see what Cokanasiga has done to merit inclusion.
McGuigan completely deserves his call up but i would have favoured Walker over Blamire and Dolly.
Only 2 TH props. Would be an idea to perhaps take a look at someone else.

Agree re the tightheads, particularly as they are building towards the Baabaas game and it's unlike Heyes will be available for that, unless I have the dates wrong. I'm sure he could have found space for Collier or Alo.

Also agree on Walker, he's been playing consistently well for Quins.

Big Joe gets in because we need some power in the backline and we're all hoping he's going to finally come good now he's not broken.

[Which Tyler]

Big Joe gets in because we need some power in the backline and we're all hoping he's going to finally come good now he's not broken.

11 tries in 11 tests buys a resonable amount of leeway too.

Even with how terribly Bath are playing this year, he's still averaging a try every 40 minutes

[Puja]

How can Ewells still be included?

Interesting we get to have both Newcastle hookers, because Eddie won't admit he's wrong. As usual, a couple of wild punts based on nothing at all, in positions where players with meaningful form are overlooked.

Which do you see as the wild punts based on nothing at all? Plus which players with meaningful form (aside from those rested and Ford ) are being overlooked for you? Looks to be one of the saner Eddie squads to my mind.

Puja

[FKAS]

Big Joe gets in because we need some power in the backline and we're all hoping he's going to finally come good now he's not broken.

11 tries in 11 tests buys a resonable amount of leeway too.

Even with how terribly Bath are playing this year, he's still averaging a try every 40 minutes

Six of those tries were scored in three games Vs Canada and the USA but he's definitely worth a spot. The only reason he doesn't have more caps is injuries.

[Which Tyler]

I'm aware - but you can only play the opponents, I'm sure he'd love to have played more matches against SA and NZ.
FTR, the other 5 tries were agaainst Japan, Australia, Wales and Ireland. The only team he's played against but not scored, is Italy.

And he's 11 tries from 11 tests; and 5 tries from 208 minutes this season.

He's a try scorer. England needs a try scorer.

[Peej]

How can Ewells still be included?

Interesting we get to have both Newcastle hookers, because Eddie won't admit he's wrong. As usual, a couple of wild punts based on nothing at all, in positions where players with meaningful form are overlooked.

Which do you see as the wild punts based on nothing at all? Plus which players with meaningful form (aside from those rested and Ford ) are being overlooked for you? Looks to be one of the saner Eddie squads to my mind.

Puja

Will Joseph is certainly one. Arundell I accept has got everyone a bit hot and bothered but he's not even starting for Irish in the league or Europe (his time will come etc and he has to be looked at etc). Bailey to some extent. But the churn of centres and outside backs isn't good. Atkinson may not have been everyone's first choice pick, but what has he done between now and the 6 nations to not be picked? At hooker, Blamire over Walker, Singleton, Oghre, or even Woolstencroft is a bit odd.

[FKAS]

I'm aware - but you can only play the opponents, I'm sure he'd love to have played more matches against SA and NZ.
FTR, the other 5 tries were agaainst Japan, Australia, Wales and Ireland. The only team he's played against but not scored, is Italy.

And he's 11 tries from 11 tests; and 5 tries from 208 minutes this season.

He's a try scorer. England needs a try scorer.

They do, they also need a power carrier and he does that as well.

I've only just noticed that Marler is out and Mako back in. Interesting call.

[Peej]

I assumed that was partly because of the long travelling and need to be away from home for the best part of a month?

[Banquo]

I'm aware - but you can only play the opponents, I'm sure he'd love to have played more matches against SA and NZ.
FTR, the other 5 tries were agaainst Japan, Australia, Wales and Ireland. The only team he's played against but not scored, is Italy.

And he's 11 tries from 11 tests; and 5 tries from 208 minutes this season.

He's a try scorer. England needs a try scorer.

They do, they also need a power carrier and he does that as well.

I've only just noticed that Marler is out and Mako back in. Interesting call.

Marler getting a rest in the mentions, else suspect Mako wouldn't be...............and its only a training squad.

[FKAS]

I assumed that was partly because of the long travelling and need to be away from home for the best part of a month?

I don't think Marler not being there is much of a thing but Mako being recalled certainly is. There's a few being given this camp off but after the Vunipola's were so clearly dropped I was surprised to see Eddie back track on that.

[Puja]

How can Ewells still be included?

Interesting we get to have both Newcastle hookers, because Eddie won't admit he's wrong. As usual, a couple of wild punts based on nothing at all, in positions where players with meaningful form are overlooked.

Which do you see as the wild punts based on nothing at all? Plus which players with meaningful form (aside from those rested and Ford ) are being overlooked for you? Looks to be one of the saner Eddie squads to my mind.

Puja

Will Joseph is certainly one. Arundell I accept has got everyone a bit hot and bothered but he's not even starting for Irish in the league or Europe (his time will come etc and he has to be looked at etc). Bailey to some extent. But the churn of centres and outside backs isn't good. Atkinson may not have been everyone's first choice pick, but what has he done between now and the 6 nations to not be picked? At hooker, Blamire over Walker, Singleton, Oghre, or even Woolstencroft is a bit odd.

I'd disagree with you on Joseph - he's been absolutely mustard for Irish and has looked a touch of class every time he's touched the ball. He's not going to be in the England team tomorrow, but I've got no problem with him being in the squad as an apprentice and to play against the Barbarians.

I'm not a fan of the churn of outside backs either, but Atkinson's a weird example as he's so clearly a dead-end for England. He's been in two windows' worth of training squad, has had plenty of chance to impress in camp, and clearly Eddie doesn't believe he's worth playing or keeping. Manu return is the one likely kicking him out of a squad place and, while you could say pick him instead of Joseph or Dingwall, I'd rather take we take a look at a couple of young guns, than waste time with someone who won't make it (not to mention that including Joseph and Dingwall keeps any Celts from getting too interested in them).

Blamire's odd because he's barely playing any domestic rugby, and that which he is is for one of the worst teams, but he does have some credit in the bank for the fact that he's shown that he can do it on the international stage, even against South Africa's pack. Dolly's the weird one for me, although Woolstencroft is a step too far!

Puja

[Puja]

I assumed that was partly because of the long travelling and need to be away from home for the best part of a month?

I don't think Marler not being there is much of a thing but Mako being recalled certainly is. There's a few being given this camp off but after the Vunipola's were so clearly dropped I was surprised to see Eddie back track on that.

Recalling the one who's arguably had a lesser positive reaction to dropping, is a classic Eddie move though.

Puja

[Banquo]

I assumed that was partly because of the long travelling and need to be away from home for the best part of a month?

I don't think Marler not being there is much of a thing but Mako being recalled certainly is. There's a few being given this camp off but after the Vunipola's were so clearly dropped I was surprised to see Eddie back track on that.

....again, its only a training camp. He may just want some experience in the front row around. IMO Billy should be in line for a call up tho for the final squad for oz

[Banquo]

Which do you see as the wild punts based on nothing at all? Plus which players with meaningful form (aside from those rested and Ford ) are being overlooked for you? Looks to be one of the saner Eddie squads to my mind.

Puja

Will Joseph is certainly one. Arundell I accept has got everyone a bit hot and bothered but he's not even starting for Irish in the league or Europe (his time will come etc and he has to be looked at etc). Bailey to some extent. But the churn of centres and outside backs isn't good. Atkinson may not have been everyone's first choice pick, but what has he done between now and the 6 nations to not be picked? At hooker, Blamire over Walker, Singleton, Oghre, or even Woolstencroft is a bit odd.

I'd disagree with you on Joseph - he's been absolutely mustard for Irish and has looked a touch of class every time he's touched the ball. He's not going to be in the England team tomorrow, but I've got no problem with him being in the squad as an apprentice and to play against the Barbarians.

I'm not a fan of the churn of outside backs either, but Atkinson's a weird example as he's so clearly a dead-end for England. He's been in two windows' worth of training squad, has had plenty of chance to impress in camp, and clearly Eddie doesn't believe he's worth playing or keeping. Manu return is the one likely kicking him out of a squad place and, while you could say pick him instead of Joseph or Dingwall, I'd rather take we take a look at a couple of young guns, than waste time with someone who won't make it (not to mention that including Joseph and Dingwall keeps any Celts from getting too interested in them).

Blamire's odd because he's barely playing any domestic rugby, and that which he is is for one of the worst teams, but he does have some credit in the bank for the fact that he's shown that he can do it on the international stage, even against South Africa's pack. Dolly's the weird one for me, although Woolstencroft is a step too far!

Puja

The churn is a bit of a function of what's available- its hardly a treasure trove in the backs; its only a training squad- have I said that - but even so, the absence of a regular 12 is ..illuminating ...tho Dingwall might be a candidate there.

[Mikey Brown]

How can Ewells still be included?

Interesting we get to have both Newcastle hookers, because Eddie won't admit he's wrong. As usual, a couple of wild punts based on nothing at all, in positions where players with meaningful form are overlooked.

I can just picture Blamire doing 80 with McGuigan on the bench for the Barbarians game, then getting ditched for Dolly.

[fivepointer]

This from Will Kelleher on twitter -

Welcome new followers to our News from the #statcave tweet after each Eddie Jones squad.
Now up to 183 players picked since 2016.
Henry Arundell! Will Joseph! Jack van Poortvliet! Come on Down! (in the Price is Right announcer voice).
Remember, 43% never won a cap with him.

[Mellsblue]

Does anyone know if this is a training squad or the squad for the summer matches?

[Scrumhead]

It’s just a training squad

[Banquo]

Does anyone know if this is a training squad or the squad for the summer matches?

[Banquo]

This from Will Kelleher on twitter -

Welcome new followers to our News from the #statcave tweet after each Eddie Jones squad.
Now up to 183 players picked since 2016.
Henry Arundell! Will Joseph! Jack van Poortvliet! Come on Down! (in the Price is Right announcer voice).
Remember, 43% never won a cap with him.

....tbh i have no issue with that, he gets promising players in early to have a look; it highlights one of the issues with our rugby landscapes v international expectations.

[Scrumhead]

Yep. A few of those are still in the picture (Lynagh, Freeman and Pearson for example) and other than Redpath (who IMO didn’t really deserve a cap at the point he was training with England), there isn’t anyone I can think of who has been called-up and wrongly discarded.

We’re often accused of capping dual-qualified players to block the other home nations, but he truth is quite the opposite. I’m quite happy to have let Scotland have Gary Graham for example. Eddie rarely caps a player until he thinks they are ready and quite often the players called in to camp benefit from seeing the level they need to reach at first hand.

[FKAS]

This from Will Kelleher on twitter -

Welcome new followers to our News from the #statcave tweet after each Eddie Jones squad.
Now up to 183 players picked since 2016.
Henry Arundell! Will Joseph! Jack van Poortvliet! Come on Down! (in the Price is Right announcer voice).
Remember, 43% never won a cap with him.

....tbh i have no issue with that, he gets promising players in early to have a look; it highlights one of the issues with our rugby landscapes v international expectations.

Agreed. It's also a good idea to get a feel for the personality and personal maturity of the young player. If you're going to commit to developing someone it's always good to know what kind of person they are and whether they fit into the environment you are trying to create.

[Peej]

Which do you see as the wild punts based on nothing at all? Plus which players with meaningful form (aside from those rested and Ford ) are being overlooked for you? Looks to be one of the saner Eddie squads to my mind.

Puja

Will Joseph is certainly one. Arundell I accept has got everyone a bit hot and bothered but he's not even starting for Irish in the league or Europe (his time will come etc and he has to be looked at etc). Bailey to some extent. But the churn of centres and outside backs isn't good. Atkinson may not have been everyone's first choice pick, but what has he done between now and the 6 nations to not be picked? At hooker, Blamire over Walker, Singleton, Oghre, or even Woolstencroft is a bit odd.

I'd disagree with you on Joseph - he's been absolutely mustard for Irish and has looked a touch of class every time he's touched the ball. He's not going to be in the England team tomorrow, but I've got no problem with him being in the squad as an apprentice and to play against the Barbarians.

I'm not a fan of the churn of outside backs either, but Atkinson's a weird example as he's so clearly a dead-end for England. He's been in two windows' worth of training squad, has had plenty of chance to impress in camp, and clearly Eddie doesn't believe he's worth playing or keeping. Manu return is the one likely kicking him out of a squad place and, while you could say pick him instead of Joseph or Dingwall, I'd rather take we take a look at a couple of young guns, than waste time with someone who won't make it (not to mention that including Joseph and Dingwall keeps any Celts from getting too interested in them).

Blamire's odd because he's barely playing any domestic rugby, and that which he is is for one of the worst teams, but he does have some credit in the bank for the fact that he's shown that he can do it on the international stage, even against South Africa's pack. Dolly's the weird one for me, although Woolstencroft is a step too far!

Puja

Fair enough on Joseph, I hadn't seen that much good stuff of him, but happy to be proven otherwise. I thought Atkinson was a dead end too, but it just seems a waste of time and inefficient - and we know Eddie puts great stock into efficiencies and things - to have to constantly start from zero with new players.

But I think I saw someone say it was a training squad? Big if, but IF that's the case then I suppose it's nothing too consequential

[Puja]

Will Joseph is certainly one. Arundell I accept has got everyone a bit hot and bothered but he's not even starting for Irish in the league or Europe (his time will come etc and he has to be looked at etc). Bailey to some extent. But the churn of centres and outside backs isn't good. Atkinson may not have been everyone's first choice pick, but what has he done between now and the 6 nations to not be picked? At hooker, Blamire over Walker, Singleton, Oghre, or even Woolstencroft is a bit odd.

I'd disagree with you on Joseph - he's been absolutely mustard for Irish and has looked a touch of class every time he's touched the ball. He's not going to be in the England team tomorrow, but I've got no problem with him being in the squad as an apprentice and to play against the Barbarians.

I'm not a fan of the churn of outside backs either, but Atkinson's a weird example as he's so clearly a dead-end for England. He's been in two windows' worth of training squad, has had plenty of chance to impress in camp, and clearly Eddie doesn't believe he's worth playing or keeping. Manu return is the one likely kicking him out of a squad place and, while you could say pick him instead of Joseph or Dingwall, I'd rather take we take a look at a couple of young guns, than waste time with someone who won't make it (not to mention that including Joseph and Dingwall keeps any Celts from getting too interested in them).

Blamire's odd because he's barely playing any domestic rugby, and that which he is is for one of the worst teams, but he does have some credit in the bank for the fact that he's shown that he can do it on the international stage, even against South Africa's pack. Dolly's the weird one for me, although Woolstencroft is a step too far!

Puja

Fair enough on Joseph, I hadn't seen that much good stuff of him, but happy to be proven otherwise. I thought Atkinson was a dead end too, but it just seems a waste of time and inefficient - and we know Eddie puts great stock into efficiencies and things - to have to constantly start from zero with new players.

But I think I saw someone say it was a training squad? Big if, but IF that's the case then I suppose it's nothing too consequential

A training squad you say? I don't know anyone's mentioned that on here.

Mind, wasn't it "just a training squad" where Ford and the Vunipolae were dropped for the first time and then it proved to have stuck?

Puja

[Oakboy]

The fundamental question remains. It has been there since the RWC final defeat. How many of that losing squad should be retained?

Might Jones end up making Ford the main scapegoat perhaps?

One of the primary skill requirements for a head coach is assessing accurately the potential of players who can come in and improve the collective 1st XV performance. In that category are there any beyond Smith, LCD and Genge (only Smith of the trio is really new)? Should we include Steward?

I'd argue that failing to make the necessary 7 - 8 improvements is where Jones is at.

Randall is not the answer at 9. We will probably see Youngs, Smith, Farrell, Tuilagi if fitness permits. Watson and May will start if available.

Genge, LCD and Sinckler. Itoje and Hill. Lawes (I anticipate the groans) and Curry.

BillyV back at 8? Maybe, Steward at 15.

All in all, that is not much progress and the team will not get past the QF stage.