England Training Squad - Now Featuring Both New and Old Messiahs

[Banquo]

Not sure Freeman would be thanking you for that tbh.

I'll be honest, I was trying to juggle wanting to get minutes into May after injury, Cokanasiga to play him in a side that's Not Bath, Arundell because he's young and exciting and would love a Barbarians game, and Freeman because I like the look of him. Given Eddie's talked up him playing at 13, I thought that was an opportunity to trial him and see if it worked.

Puja

...and if it doesn't? See Japan game 2018 for list of players discarded post experiment. I like him a lot, but give him a chance- baa-baas games can make you look stupid, even in position. Happy to give the likes of Arundell a shot in position etc etc. If Freeman is available, why not give Dingwall a go if you see what I mean?

[Puja]

Not sure Freeman would be thanking you for that tbh.

I'll be honest, I was trying to juggle wanting to get minutes into May after injury, Cokanasiga to play him in a side that's Not Bath, Arundell because he's young and exciting and would love a Barbarians game, and Freeman because I like the look of him. Given Eddie's talked up him playing at 13, I thought that was an opportunity to trial him and see if it worked.

Puja

...and if it doesn't? See Japan for list of players discarded post experiment. I like him a lot, but give him a chance.

Not unfair. Okay, scratch that - put him in at full-back and bring Arundell off the bench,

Puja

[Banquo]

I'll be honest, I was trying to juggle wanting to get minutes into May after injury, Cokanasiga to play him in a side that's Not Bath, Arundell because he's young and exciting and would love a Barbarians game, and Freeman because I like the look of him. Given Eddie's talked up him playing at 13, I thought that was an opportunity to trial him and see if it worked.

Puja

...and if it doesn't? See Japan for list of players discarded post experiment. I like him a lot, but give him a chance.

Not unfair. Okay, scratch that - put him in at full-back and bring Arundell off the bench,

Puja

good work. Stick Dingwall into midfield too.

Mind you face a double heartbreaker there if Saints upset the odds

[Puja]

...and if it doesn't? See Japan for list of players discarded post experiment. I like him a lot, but give him a chance.

Not unfair. Okay, scratch that - put him in at full-back and bring Arundell off the bench,

Puja

good work. Stick Dingwall into midfield too.

Mind you face a double heartbreaker there if Saints upset the odds

In which case, bring in Guy Porter to 13. He's another in the category of "Will never truly trouble an international shirt, but would be a fun player to give a day out to."

Puja

[Banquo]

Not unfair. Okay, scratch that - put him in at full-back and bring Arundell off the bench,

Puja

good work. Stick Dingwall into midfield too.

Mind you face a double heartbreaker there if Saints upset the odds

In which case, bring in Guy Porter to 13. He's another in the category of "Will never truly trouble an international shirt, but would be a fun player to give a day out to."

Puja

Kelly?

[Puja]

good work. Stick Dingwall into midfield too.

Mind you face a double heartbreaker there if Saints upset the odds

In which case, bring in Guy Porter to 13. He's another in the category of "Will never truly trouble an international shirt, but would be a fun player to give a day out to."

Puja

Kelly?

If he's fit, he'll be 12 ahead of Atkinson, with the aim of getting minutes into his legs before Australia. However, given Borthwick's black hole of injury news, he might be back next week or he might be dead - we just don't know.

Puja

[Banquo]

In which case, bring in Guy Porter to 13. He's another in the category of "Will never truly trouble an international shirt, but would be a fun player to give a day out to."

Puja

Kelly?

If he's fit, he'll be 12 ahead of Atkinson, with the aim of getting minutes into his legs before Australia. However, given Borthwick's black hole of injury news, he might be back next week or he might be dead - we just don't know.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

A bit confused here. According to this wiki entry, Fin Smith's grandad was the great Scotland wing and 1962 Lions captain, Arthur Smith :

Maybe he had two grandads who played for Scotland? (Tom Elliot was a prop.)

That would be quite the contrasting genetic material...

[Mellsblue]

I’m guessing the prop was a Saffa who qualified via residency and was therefore a non-blood relative.

[FKAS]

In which case, bring in Guy Porter to 13. He's another in the category of "Will never truly trouble an international shirt, but would be a fun player to give a day out to."

Puja

Kelly?

If he's fit, he'll be 12 ahead of Atkinson, with the aim of getting minutes into his legs before Australia. However, given Borthwick's black hole of injury news, he might be back next week or he might be dead - we just don't know.

Puja

He's been on the social media videos training with the team, including some contact stuff. Can't be far away.

[Scrumhead]

A bit confused here. According to this wiki entry, Fin Smith's grandad was the great Scotland wing and 1962 Lions captain, Arthur Smith :

Maybe he had two grandads who played for Scotland? (Tom Elliot was a prop.)

That would be quite the contrasting genetic material...

Arthur Smith sounds like the more logical of the two given the surname and position, but I got the Tom Elliot bit from his profile on the Worcester Warriors official website (last paragraph: https://warriors.co.uk/teams/fin-smith/ ... 0in%201955) so I’d hope that’s correct.

I completely get @FKAS point that your ‘connection’ being a man you never met is somewhat tenuous, but I’d have thought having an international/Lion as a grandfather would definitely have been a source of pride and possibly something he’d want to emulate (albeit in a very different position). Arguably, Smith not knowing him might have contributed to him being a family legend rather than an old man he might have struggled to imagine as a rugby player.

Anyway, I wasn’t commenting on his decision-making, just adding a potentially decent reason for divided loyalty.

[Puja]

Kelly?

If he's fit, he'll be 12 ahead of Atkinson, with the aim of getting minutes into his legs before Australia. However, given Borthwick's black hole of injury news, he might be back next week or he might be dead - we just don't know.

Puja

He's been on the social media videos training with the team, including some contact stuff. Can't be far away.

Deepfakes. Dan is dead.

To be serious, that's excellent news for Leicester - we've missed him.

A bit confused here. According to this wiki entry, Fin Smith's grandad was the great Scotland wing and 1962 Lions captain, Arthur Smith :

Maybe he had two grandads who played for Scotland? (Tom Elliot was a prop.)

That would be quite the contrasting genetic material...

Arthur Smith sounds like the more logical of the two given the surname and position, but I got the Tom Elliot bit from his profile on the Worcester Warriors official website (last paragraph: https://warriors.co.uk/teams/fin-smith/ ... 0in%201955) so I’d hope that’s correct.

I completely get @FKAS point that your ‘connection’ being a man you never met is somewhat tenuous, but I’d have thought having an international/Lion as a grandfather would definitely have been a source of pride and possibly something he’d want to emulate (albeit in a very different position). Arguably, Smith not knowing him might have contributed to him being a family legend rather than an old man he might have struggled to imagine as a rugby player.

Anyway, I wasn’t commenting on his decision-making, just adding a potentially decent reason for divided loyalty.

I can absolutely understand how a grandad can be a link - if you think about the number of people who've lived in England all their lives, but consider themselves Scottish or Welsh because their parents came from there and raised them as such - if Smith's mum or dad considered themselves fully Scottish cause of their parentage, from his perspective he's got one English parent and one Scots parent. While I don't like the grandparent rule, there are occasions where it makes sense.

Speaking of, Schickerling has only been in the country 3 years, so it's definitely not residency. I would imagine he's got a grandparent somewhere and I'd be surprised if there was a strong family connection beyond Exeter getting him marked as an EQP for central funds' sake.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Or perhaps with it being a non-cap fixture, it doesn’t matter too much?

It doesn’t seem to matter Williams, Haley, Sheedy etc. have all played for ‘England’* vs. The Barbarians and have then gone on to play for other countries. Maybe it’s equally OK for Schickerling to play in this match on the proviso that we intend to develop him for when he can be capped?

*i.e. not ‘England A’ or ‘England Saxons’ as it was then known.

[Puja]

Or perhaps with it being a non-cap fixture, it doesn’t matter too much?

It doesn’t seem to matter Williams, Haley, Sheedy etc. have all played for ‘England’* vs. The Barbarians and have then gone on to play for other countries. Maybe it’s equally OK for Schickerling to play in this match on the proviso that we intend to develop him for when he can be capped?

*i.e. not ‘England A’ or ‘England Saxons’ as it was then known.

Potentially. Although it would be extremely dickish behaviour to be sharking an ex-Namibia U20s player a full 2 years before he's eligible to play for us.

I don't understand why this game doesn't count for eligibility. Yes, it is a bit of a lark, but surely no more so than any England A match and I'm fairly certain that the Barbarians pose a more credible threat and are likely to face a better England team than in the Canada match last year.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Just seeing this discussions elsewhere and I hadn't realised Dan Cole is "only" 35, probably because he's looked 35 for about 15 years. If none of the backup tight-heads impress, is it completely out of the question that Cole would still be able to do a job in the RWC squad in 18 months?

I can't say I've paid much attention to how he's been playing. Still strong in the scrum but I think as good as invisible in the loose?

[FKAS]

Just seeing this discussions elsewhere and I hadn't realised Dan Cole is "only" 35, probably because he's looked 35 for about 15 years. If none of the backup tight-heads impress, is it completely out of the question that Cole would still be able to do a job in the RWC squad in 18 months?

I can't say I've paid much attention to how he's been playing. Still strong in the scrum but I think as good as invisible in the loose?

Dan has been on fire this season. He and Collier are probably the form EQ tightheads but neither really carry enough and both are going to be considered to old to be called up outside of a crisis.

Dan isn't invisible in the loose, defensively he's been amazing this season. A full pre season under S&C guru Aled Walters (mastermind behind getting the Boks in shape for the last world cup win) has taken years off of Coley (hard to tell because he's looked the same from about age 25). He actually started the season a little so/so at scrum time but has got back to turning looseheads inside out again. The major change this season is his mobility, he's regularly leading the line chasing kicks and leading the defence up. He's always had a good engine but it's kicked on again. In attack he's mainly clearing rucks as Tigers have plenty of better ball carriers and Dan isn't stupid, he's self aware enough to know what the team needs.

If there were to be an injury crisis I suspect Eddie might call him up and maybe he'd (deservedly) become an England centurion.

[Mikey Brown]

Well that's good to hear. Let's hope he can keep it up. It would be great if Stuart or Heyes can kick on, but I'd also love to see Cole get 100 if he is in good shape to do it.

[Mr Mwenda]

Yeah, wasn't Cole's issue being ground down by endless rugby? Out of the England fold and with a better Leicester regime he presumably gets more breaks.

[FKAS]

Yeah, wasn't Cole's issue being ground down by endless rugby? Out of the England fold and with a better Leicester regime he presumably gets more breaks.

Very much the case. Those before Murphy seemed to like playing Dan as much as possible because he was a source of scrum penalties which was keeping us in games. Murphy gave Heyes more opportunities and then Borthwick started actively rotating them. It has definitely helped both, had Heyes not had a niggling injury at the start of the season we could have seen more rotation. Cole looks fresher than ever and part of that is more rest time but also the impact of Walters the S&C guy, Tigers generally finish games strong now as the fitness levels are off the charts and Borthwick has developed a squad mentality so the bench makes an impact.

[Scrumhead]

Just seeing this discussions elsewhere and I hadn't realised Dan Cole is "only" 35, probably because he's looked 35 for about 15 years. If none of the backup tight-heads impress, is it completely out of the question that Cole would still be able to do a job in the RWC squad in 18 months?

I can't say I've paid much attention to how he's been playing. Still strong in the scrum but I think as good as invisible in the loose?

Dan has been on fire this season. He and Collier are probably the form EQ tightheads but neither really carry enough and both are going to be considered to old to be called up outside of a crisis.

Dan isn't invisible in the loose, defensively he's been amazing this season. A full pre season under S&C guru Aled Walters (mastermind behind getting the Boks in shape for the last world cup win) has taken years off of Coley (hard to tell because he's looked the same from about age 25). He actually started the season a little so/so at scrum time but has got back to turning looseheads inside out again. The major change this season is his mobility, he's regularly leading the line chasing kicks and leading the defence up. He's always had a good engine but it's kicked on again. In attack he's mainly clearing rucks as Tigers have plenty of better ball carriers and Dan isn't stupid, he's self aware enough to know what the team needs.

If there were to be an injury crisis I suspect Eddie might call him up and maybe he'd (deservedly) become an England centurion.

Collier is only 31. Plenty young enough to be a contender for the RWC squad IMO.

I’d also be happy to see Cole pick up 100 caps.

[FKAS]

Just seeing this discussions elsewhere and I hadn't realised Dan Cole is "only" 35, probably because he's looked 35 for about 15 years. If none of the backup tight-heads impress, is it completely out of the question that Cole would still be able to do a job in the RWC squad in 18 months?

I can't say I've paid much attention to how he's been playing. Still strong in the scrum but I think as good as invisible in the loose?

Dan has been on fire this season. He and Collier are probably the form EQ tightheads but neither really carry enough and both are going to be considered to old to be called up outside of a crisis.

Dan isn't invisible in the loose, defensively he's been amazing this season. A full pre season under S&C guru Aled Walters (mastermind behind getting the Boks in shape for the last world cup win) has taken years off of Coley (hard to tell because he's looked the same from about age 25). He actually started the season a little so/so at scrum time but has got back to turning looseheads inside out again. The major change this season is his mobility, he's regularly leading the line chasing kicks and leading the defence up. He's always had a good engine but it's kicked on again. In attack he's mainly clearing rucks as Tigers have plenty of better ball carriers and Dan isn't stupid, he's self aware enough to know what the team needs.

If there were to be an injury crisis I suspect Eddie might call him up and maybe he'd (deservedly) become an England centurion.

Collier is only 31. Plenty young enough to be a contender for the RWC squad IMO.

I’d also be happy to see Cole pick up 100 caps.

The RFU will be encouraging Eddie to show he's developing for England going forward. Neither Cole nor Collier will be there for the world cup after next but Heyes and Stuart both will and Sinckler might be. Eddie's under pressure over results he doesn't want to be defending an aging squad as well. Wouldn't help that Collier would be a newbie to international rugby as well.

As I said though, if there's a crisis close to the world cup age won't matter. Year out there's still development time, couple months out and not so much.

[fivepointer]

Collier has been capped and is playing the best rugby of his career. At 31 he isnt that old for a prop. The WC is less than 2 years away and there's no reason he couldnt be a contender for the squad assuming he stays fit.

I wouldnt see an issue in bringing him on now to a squad lacking our best TH and with some doubt about the depth in his position.

[FKAS]

Collier has been capped and is playing the best rugby of his career. At 31 he isnt that old for a prop. The WC is less than 2 years away and there's no reason he couldnt be a contender for the squad assuming he stays fit.

I wouldnt see an issue in bringing him on now to a squad lacking our best TH and with some doubt about the depth in his position.

Don't get me wrong, I'd have him as the third tighthead on the tour to Australia now we know Sinckler isn't going but I suspect Eddie will opt for the versatility of Davison or a younger option.

[Scrumhead]

But with an extra player now added to the RWC squads, there’s no need to prioritise props that can cover both sides anymore.

[Puja]

I don't get the eagerness for Collier. He's probably our 4th choice, but there's a massive gap between 3rd and 4th and not a huge gap between 4th and 5th. I'm not thrilled about Davidson being in favour, but I don't know I'd be any more excited if it was Collier - don''t really want either of them playing for England.

Puja