England Training Squad - Now Featuring Both New and Old Messiahs

[Mellsblue]

I think Farrell ended up playing a lot more 10 than planned because Derek Hougaard the expected go to Sarries 10 smashed his knee up and missed virtually the whole season. Goode the other young 10 was needed at fullback and it all just worked. I think Hodgson joined the summer after Sarries won their first title with Farrell at 10 having lost the one the year before with Jackson at 10 who then retired.

Iirc, Goode had first go at 10 but kicked like a drain off the tee.

[Banquo]

That's a good point. You do wonder if he just got put there because of who his Dad is. Then stayed there because, even if he wasn't a natural 10 (BS term I know, as there are, quite rightly, many different types of good ways to play 10) for the same reason.

From memory, he broke into Saracens team as an OC, outside Hodgson and Barritt; and only really played FH initially as last-man-standing from injuries.
Then Hodgson retired, and Barritt was immovable, whilst Goode had settled at FB, so that's where Saracens had a space to fit him into.
Played his England age-grade rugby at 12, outside Ford.

So not "because his dad wanted him at FH" but "because Sarries had a gap at FH, and he filled it well enough for the limited gameplan they were playing at the time"

He came through the youth ranks at FH, though, didn't he? I thought he did, at least.

he played rep age group rugby at 12 outside Ford and as I said, I saw him play for sarries academy team at 12; he went on loan to Bedford (after he'd had a game for sarries 1sts at the age of 17), but not sure he turned out for them much. As which said, he then played centre early on at sarries,

[Puja]

Cook Cup due to be renamed: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... be-renamed

Not a bad shout, especially given Rugby Australia's attempts to expand its appeal to people who aren't of white British extraction.

Puja

[Spiffy]

Yet again, much analysis (or hyper analysis) of Faz over the past few pages. But I think the bottom line, the take home message, is still that he is just a player who is not really all that good and has been vastly over-hyped. I really can't stand all this "captain Courageous", "ice man", "leader of men" stuff; or how fans rave if he manages to throw one good pass per game amidst a lot of dross.
In the history of rugby he is nowhere near the top echelon of 10s or 12s.

[Tom Moore]

I’d say the vast majority of players who laud him in public tend to be forwards…..
I don’t think anybody questions his intangibles just his quality of passing, decision making when pass v kick, ability to play off the cuff and his ability to think clearly when things aren’t going to plan when set against how widely he is proclaimed as world class.

Seems like he could have been a good flanker...

Honestly, with his skill set, a loose forward role would have made the most sense.

If Big Faz had stayed at Wigan, OF would absolutely have been a second row or loose forward. He's basically the same build as his uncle, Sean O'Loughlin, who played 13 for Wigan and England and they're broadly the same as players- lots of praise from their peers for leadership skills, very physical, with decent but not outstanding basic skills. O'Loughlin is probably the better passer, Farrell is the better kicker. Neither of them have anywhere near the skill set of Andy Farrell.

[Puja]

I’d say the vast majority of players who laud him in public tend to be forwards…..
I don’t think anybody questions his intangibles just his quality of passing, decision making when pass v kick, ability to play off the cuff and his ability to think clearly when things aren’t going to plan when set against how widely he is proclaimed as world class.

Seems like he could have been a good flanker...

Honestly, with his skill set, a loose forward role would have made the most sense.

If Big Faz had stayed at Wigan, OF would absolutely have been a second row or loose forward. He's basically the same build as his uncle, Sean O'Loughlin, who played 13 for Wigan and England and they're broadly the same as players- lots of praise from their peers for leadership skills, very physical, with decent but not outstanding basic skills. O'Loughlin is probably the better passer, Farrell is the better kicker. Neither of them have anywhere near the skill set of Andy Farrell.

Hells, I still think Farrell the Elder would've been better sticking at flanker too - he looked good there when he moved to union and was only ever solidly okay at 12 (mostly because he'd lost several yards of pace by that point.

Puja

[FKAS]

Farrell Snr really was only playing Union for a pension, his glory days were behind him. There was a media build up that he'd be integral to the England team for the world cup but his contribution was fairly insignificant on the field. His son has more than made the investment worthwhile for Sarries and England.

It's the problem with league converts, need to get them over 25 or under to ensure that they've got enough time to adapt and thrive. There's been a lot of talk about Regan Grace for instance but he needs to move soon or never if he wants to have a crack though I think he did play Union when he was younger.

[Puja]

Farrell Snr really was only playing Union for a pension, his glory days were behind him. There was a media build up that he'd be integral to the England team for the world cup but his contribution was fairly insignificant on the field. His son has more than made the investment worthwhile for Sarries and England.

It's the problem with league converts, need to get them over 25 or under to ensure that they've got enough time to adapt and thrive. There's been a lot of talk about Regan Grace for instance but he needs to move soon or never if he wants to have a crack though I think he did play Union when he was younger.

Had never heard of him, so went and googled - seems like an interesting player, although the talk appears to be of him having a try for the RWC, which seems far too late to me, even for a winger. There's just too much to learn and too much difference between the sports now.

Puja

[Mr Mwenda]

To be fair to Farrell senior, i seem to recall that he had a ridiculous injury (from sitting in a car or something) that cost him a year of union making the transition much less successful.

[Tom Moore]

To be fair to Farrell senior, i seem to recall that he had a ridiculous injury (from sitting in a car or something) that cost him a year of union making the transition much less successful.

He did, but he was pretty much done even prior to that. He'd been a pro for 11 or 12 years when he signed, and his body was already beginning to give up the ghost. If he'd come around 96 97 time, entirely different story.

[Mellsblue]

he'd lost several yards of pace by that point.

Puja

Yards is the wrong metric - miles or kilometres is closer to it. It was like watching an oil tanker at times. As loads have said, he was physically done and working on 1.5 legs by the time he got to Union. He’d have torn it up if he’d come over in his prime.

[Oakboy]

Farrell senior had superb hands - memories of his handling for Wigan in wet, muddy conditions abound. Owen's hands are significantly inferior. That can only be a natural attribute not inherited because I cannot imagine him practising less.

[Timbo]

Billy did legitimately play himself out of an England shirt, and Dombrandt, Simmonds etc have earned themselves a good crack….but his current form is extremely compelling. This is his best club season for 4 or 5 years and his skill set is exactly what I think the England pack is crying out for. Sticking him back between 2 of Curry, Underhill, Willis, Ludlum, Earl etc would be very tempting.

[Spiffy]

Will George Ford's injury keep him out of the England tour (assuming he would have travelled if fit.) If he is out, and Faz earmarked to play 12, who are the alternative 10s after Smith?

[FKAS]

Will George Ford's injury keep him out of the England tour (assuming he would have travelled if fit.) If he is out, and Faz earmarked to play 12, who are the alternative 10s after Smith?

Farrell will probably cover Smith within the match day 23. If Ford isn't there then Bailey looks likely, he covers two positions which is always popular with Eddie.

[FKAS]

Farrell Snr really was only playing Union for a pension, his glory days were behind him. There was a media build up that he'd be integral to the England team for the world cup but his contribution was fairly insignificant on the field. His son has more than made the investment worthwhile for Sarries and England.

It's the problem with league converts, need to get them over 25 or under to ensure that they've got enough time to adapt and thrive. There's been a lot of talk about Regan Grace for instance but he needs to move soon or never if he wants to have a crack though I think he did play Union when he was younger.

Had never heard of him, so went and googled - seems like an interesting player, although the talk appears to be of him having a try for the RWC, which seems far too late to me, even for a winger. There's just too much to learn and too much difference between the sports now.

Puja

Rapid and scores tries for fun. There's a lot of talk of offers from Union being on the table but that could just be his contract being up and his agent trying to get a bigger deal from his current club with Grace hitting his prime years.

[Danno]

I'm pretty done with league converts that have yet to even make the move being anywhere near the conversation for the national side, and I doubt I am alone in that.

[FKAS]

I'm pretty done with league converts that have yet to even make the move being anywhere near the conversation for the national side, and I doubt I am alone in that.

He's Welsh born and raised so I suspect the interest will be Welsh based, unless Sale are going in for him as I think he is EQ as well. Given England's back three options he's unlikely to get close to the side.

[Puja]

I'm pretty done with league converts that have yet to even make the move being anywhere near the conversation for the national side, and I doubt I am alone in that.

He's Welsh born and raised so I suspect the interest will be Welsh based, unless Sale are going in for him as I think he is EQ as well. Given England's back three options he's unlikely to get close to the side.

The article I saw suggested Eddie and Gleeson had expressed an interest and that the interest was mostly GP clubs, although that could very likely be nonsense.

Puja

[FKAS]

I'm pretty done with league converts that have yet to even make the move being anywhere near the conversation for the national side, and I doubt I am alone in that.

He's Welsh born and raised so I suspect the interest will be Welsh based, unless Sale are going in for him as I think he is EQ as well. Given England's back three options he's unlikely to get close to the side.

The article I saw suggested Eddie and Gleeson had expressed an interest and that the interest was mostly GP clubs, although that could very likely be nonsense.

Puja

Ha that would be very Eddie. The Rugby League salary cap is quite a bit lower I think so he could be a cheap impact option. I presumed the WRU would be using their part ownership of the Regions to push one of those into acquiring him, possibly with WRU aide.