England v Barbarians June 19th 2022

[Peej]

Bearing in mind he is still working up, I thought Joe did alright.

Back 5 of the scrum were all terrible. How Chick is rated above Ted Hill or Tom Willis is just bizarre. And Underhill really is the poor man's Joe Worsely.

What was really worrying was how little influence some of England's bigger name sand more experienced players had when introduced. Care, Nowell, Lawes all failed to do much.

[Morton]

Can anyone that watched yesterday's final honestly, hand on heart, tell me that's how they'd want to watch England play?

Nope, but it’s better than what we’ve seen from England this year and not much different to the 18 months prior to that. Borthwick may also coach to a different game plan with his pick of England’s best players.
I’m also not necessarily advocating that we change HC.

As I type, the thought has also occurred to me that Jones’s recent best periods have been with Borthwick as his side kick and it’s really fallen to pieces since he left for Leicester…

I wouldn't hold your breath for Borthwick finding an attacking streak. He likes his set piece, his territory domination and his work rate. If those things mean his team can attack and score tries then great but any team he coaches is unlikely to be playing phases in their own half.

I'm not sure Tigers would be very happy if the RFU came calling this summer, Pinchen in interviews seems resigned to the possibility next summer but this summer would require a hefty wedge from the RFU.

I'm not sure how much of today's absolute shit show was Eddie's fault. Neither scrum half showed a modicum of control with Care comprehensively outplayed by somebody around half his age. Atkinson didn't help the struggling Smith by giving him a platform either, Botia smashed him all over the place. Smith himself showed flashes of brilliance but he doesn't control proceedings and those around him were ineffective. Outside of Curry the starting forwards should be concerned over their future international prospects. Lawes looked good off the bench but to lose up front against 7, you've got to look at the players and question whether the right ones are there. I can see significant changes on Monday.

Borthwick shouldn't come anywhere near the head coach job. I've watched England over many years and I'm sick of these flavour of the month coaches getting the job. I watched two teams yesterday playing such negative rugby it bored the pants off any neutral viewer. Rugby by numbers. Effective in the Premiership as those two teams reached the final even though the league has been trying to get away from that dross we saw yesterday.. No risk rugby. Like watching England mostly. I've been waiting since 2003 for a new dawn.. Getting very frustrated as I'm getting on in life now. I have no answers except a naive wish that a grizzled New Zealander (not Gatland) would take over. Someone who appreciates the forwards hard yards but wants the backs to be able to Express themselves without fear.. England seems to be the only NH English speaking country that hasn't tried this.

[FKAS]

Nope, but it’s better than what we’ve seen from England this year and not much different to the 18 months prior to that. Borthwick may also coach to a different game plan with his pick of England’s best players.
I’m also not necessarily advocating that we change HC.

As I type, the thought has also occurred to me that Jones’s recent best periods have been with Borthwick as his side kick and it’s really fallen to pieces since he left for Leicester…

He likes his set piece, his territory domination and his work rate. If those things mean his team can attack and score tries then great but any team he coaches is unlikely to be playing phases in their own half.

You could be describing any of 90% of the professional coaches in the world.

90% of them don't apply it in the same way he does then. Certainly the last decades worth at Tigers didn't.

[Mellsblue]

He likes his set piece, his territory domination and his work rate. If those things mean his team can attack and score tries then great but any team he coaches is unlikely to be playing phases in their own half.

You could be describing any of 90% of the professional coaches in the world.

90% of them don't apply it in the same way he does then. Certainly the last decades worth at Tigers didn't.

How does he apply it so differently?
Not to mention he’s been head coach of one club that he’s had to pull from rock bottom. He may play differently with a different set of players/circumstances. He seems pragmatic above anything else.

[Mikey Brown]

Anyone know what the deal is with Dombrandt. And do we actually expect to tour Aus with Chick as number 8 if he’s crocked. Or just back to Curry at 8? Barbeary back in?

[Banquo]

Hand on heart I don’t care, as long as there’s a discernible philosophy and we’re maximising our potential. Right now we’re a rabble and there’s a whole bunch of stuff I don’t understand, both in selection and tactics.

this- any form of substance would do, style is secondary

Let's face it, when Jones was winning matches anything else was secondary. If he does not though, all aspects of criticism become fair game. Losing AND being boring crap tend to concentrate the mind somewhat.

ive said the same many times

[Scrumhead]

Anyone know what the deal is with Dombrandt. And do we actually expect to tour Aus with Chick as number 8 if he’s crocked. Or just back to Curry at 8? Barbeary back in?

Well the obvious answer would be Billy, but I guess we’ll see …

[Scrumhead]

Nope, but it’s better than what we’ve seen from England this year and not much different to the 18 months prior to that. Borthwick may also coach to a different game plan with his pick of England’s best players.
I’m also not necessarily advocating that we change HC.

As I type, the thought has also occurred to me that Jones’s recent best periods have been with Borthwick as his side kick and it’s really fallen to pieces since he left for Leicester…

I wouldn't hold your breath for Borthwick finding an attacking streak. He likes his set piece, his territory domination and his work rate. If those things mean his team can attack and score tries then great but any team he coaches is unlikely to be playing phases in their own half.

I'm not sure Tigers would be very happy if the RFU came calling this summer, Pinchen in interviews seems resigned to the possibility next summer but this summer would require a hefty wedge from the RFU.

I'm not sure how much of today's absolute shit show was Eddie's fault. Neither scrum half showed a modicum of control with Care comprehensively outplayed by somebody around half his age. Atkinson didn't help the struggling Smith by giving him a platform either, Botia smashed him all over the place. Smith himself showed flashes of brilliance but he doesn't control proceedings and those around him were ineffective. Outside of Curry the starting forwards should be concerned over their future international prospects. Lawes looked good off the bench but to lose up front against 7, you've got to look at the players and question whether the right ones are there. I can see significant changes on Monday.

Borthwick shouldn't come anywhere near the head coach job. I've watched England over many years and I'm sick of these flavour of the month coaches getting the job. I watched two teams yesterday playing such negative rugby it bored the pants off any neutral viewer. Rugby by numbers. Effective in the Premiership as those two teams reached the final even though the league has been trying to get away from that dross we saw yesterday.. No risk rugby. Like watching England mostly. I've been waiting since 2003 for a new dawn.. Getting very frustrated as I'm getting on in life now. I have no answers except a naive wish that a grizzled New Zealander (not Gatland) would take over. Someone who appreciates the forwards hard yards but wants the backs to be able to Express themselves without fear.. England seems to be the only NH English speaking country that hasn't tried this.

Welcome to the forum.

I don’t know how many ‘flavour of the month coaches’ have got the England job. Martin Johnson is the only appointment that was made purely on hope and sentiment. Lancaster was the wrong choice, but he got given the job after doing fairly well as a caretaker. Eddie’s doing a very poor job at the moment, but he didn’t get the job in 2015 because he was a ‘flavour of the month’. He got it on the back off excellent work with Japan and an extensive career in international rugby. Arguably, he’s the best qualified coach we’ve had since 2003 - certainly in terms of achievements in the global game.

As for the ‘grizzled New Zealander’ who isn’t Warren Gatland and has their team play as you described … this person doesn’t really exist. If they did, I’d imagine NZ would have hired them instead of Foster who was (and still is) a very unpopular choice. Probably the closest I can think of is Vern Cotter (who I think is a very good coach) but on paper he’s definitely not an upgrade.

It’s quite shocking how all of the good work Eddie Jones has done with England is being completely tarnished by the crap he’s served up since the RWC. He really should have gone then.

[FKAS]

You could be describing any of 90% of the professional coaches in the world.

90% of them don't apply it in the same way he does then. Certainly the last decades worth at Tigers didn't.

How does he apply it so differently?
Not to mention he’s been head coach of one club that he’s had to pull from rock bottom. He may play differently with a different set of players/circumstances. He seems pragmatic above anything else.

That's my point. Tigers was a complete rebuild, blank slate and do what you want as at the time nothing works. His choice was to build in the way he did, you're right he's very pragmatic. Just look at some of team selections, even the final where he left out most of his X factor backs, he generates a game plan for each game and selects a team for that plan. I can't imagine the press or the highly opinionated former players that steal a living making bland points will take particularly kindly to his selection process when he cuts whomever the current golden boy(s) is(are) to fit his plan. Particularly if it's one of his kick heavy schemes.

[Puja]

Whoa. Just watched the highlights but that was bad. Not sure the word highlight applies. Smith seemed to have his moments. Nice to see Cokanasiga running around.

Don't put yourself through the whole thing from an Eng pov. Worth watching for the BaaBaas performance though, they played some vintage stuff.

Really? I thought they were embarrassingly dour for a lot of the game and only started playing some actual Barbarians stuff in the last 20 minutes or so. What kind of Barbarians side kicks for goal with a long-range penalty?!

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Anyone know what the deal is with Dombrandt. And do we actually expect to tour Aus with Chick as number 8 if he’s crocked. Or just back to Curry at 8? Barbeary back in?

Well the obvious answer would be Billy, but I guess we’ll see …

Just watching the post match press conference, god knows why, he's struggling to go a few minutes at a time without insulting everybody asking the questions. Dombrandt to see a specialist tomorrow and Ford "not promising" but unsure, odd he answers that way after pointedly refusing to speculate on Dombrandt.

Also said Schickerling didn't fail his HIA??? WTF was happening then? Was it an error on the chyron or did he really sub Goodrick-Clarke on at TH, after bringing Collier back on (having subbed him off at 28 minutes) for a guy that passed his HIA prior to half-time? Something doesn't add up there.

[Puja]

Anyone know what the deal is with Dombrandt. And do we actually expect to tour Aus with Chick as number 8 if he’s crocked. Or just back to Curry at 8? Barbeary back in?

Well the obvious answer would be Billy, but I guess we’ll see …

Just watching the post match press conference, god knows why, he's struggling to go a few minutes at a time without insulting everybody asking the questions. Dombrandt to see a specialist tomorrow and Ford "not promising" but unsure, odd he answers that way after pointedly refusing to speculate on Dombrandt.

Also said Schickerling didn't fail his HIA??? WTF was happening then? Was it an error on the chyron or did he really sub Goodrick-Clarke on at TH, after bringing Collier back on (having subbed him off at 28 minutes) for a guy that passed his HIA prior to half-time? Something doesn't add up there.

Mind, after a majority of the match where neither side could catch a cold let alone a pass, I don't think we had one single scrum while WGC was at tighthead.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Maybe, I'm not bothered about whether he would have been good in the scrum tbh. I'm more just wondering why any of those decisions were made, and really hoping that wasn't him trying to cover his arse regarding Shickerling's involvement in the next few weeks, having just stated Billy wouldn't be available because of a failed HIA.

[Danno]

Whoa. Just watched the highlights but that was bad. Not sure the word highlight applies. Smith seemed to have his moments. Nice to see Cokanasiga running around.

Don't put yourself through the whole thing from an Eng pov. Worth watching for the BaaBaas performance though, they played some vintage stuff.

Really? I thought they were embarrassingly dour for a lot of the game and only started playing some actual Barbarians stuff in the last 20 minutes or so. What kind of Barbarians side kicks for goal with a long-range penalty?!

Puja

Alright, the last 25mins. Bloody pedants

[Oakboy]

Maybe, I'm not bothered about whether he would have been good in the scrum tbh. I'm more just wondering why any of those decisions were made, and really hoping that wasn't him trying to cover his arse regarding Shickerling's involvement in the next few weeks, having just stated Billy wouldn't be available because of a failed HIA.

MB, Jones's judgement calls have been suspect for years. There are numerous examples in his selections but decisions during games, such as you describe, are perhaps the most damaging. The football chant of 'you don't know what you're doing' can sound damning but it's where we are at.

[Mellsblue]

90% of them don't apply it in the same way he does then. Certainly the last decades worth at Tigers didn't.

How does he apply it so differently?
Not to mention he’s been head coach of one club that he’s had to pull from rock bottom. He may play differently with a different set of players/circumstances. He seems pragmatic above anything else.

That's my point. Tigers was a complete rebuild, blank slate and do what you want as at the time nothing works. His choice was to build in the way he did, you're right he's very pragmatic. Just look at some of team selections, even the final where he left out most of his X factor backs, he generates a game plan for each game and selects a team for that plan. I can't imagine the press or the highly opinionated former players that steal a living making bland points will take particularly kindly to his selection process when he cuts whomever the current golden boy(s) is(are) to fit his plan. Particularly if it's one of his kick heavy schemes.

So I shouldn’t base what he might do for England based on what he put out in the field for Leicester because it was a one-off situation but I definitely shouldn’t expect ‘Borthwick to find an attaching streak’ because of what he’s put on the field with Leicester but he is pragmatic so he will change how his team plays based on the situation he is in?
You’ve also not explained how he applies a game plan of a strong set piece, territorial dominance and only playing in the oppo half differently to every other coach.

[FKAS]

How does he apply it so differently?
Not to mention he’s been head coach of one club that he’s had to pull from rock bottom. He may play differently with a different set of players/circumstances. He seems pragmatic above anything else.

That's my point. Tigers was a complete rebuild, blank slate and do what you want as at the time nothing works. His choice was to build in the way he did, you're right he's very pragmatic. Just look at some of team selections, even the final where he left out most of his X factor backs, he generates a game plan for each game and selects a team for that plan. I can't imagine the press or the highly opinionated former players that steal a living making bland points will take particularly kindly to his selection process when he cuts whomever the current golden boy(s) is(are) to fit his plan. Particularly if it's one of his kick heavy schemes.

So I shouldn’t base what he might do for England based on what he put out in the field for Leicester because it was a one-off situation but I definitely shouldn’t expect ‘Borthwick to find an attaching streak’ because of what he’s put on the field with Leicester but he is pragmatic so he will change how his team plays based on the situation he is in?
You’ve also not explained how he applies a game plan of a string set piece, territorial dominance and only playing in the oppo half differently to every other coach.

Well if every other coach did the same thing Tigers wouldn't have made the European Quarter Finals and won the Prem would they.

[Mellsblue]

That's my point. Tigers was a complete rebuild, blank slate and do what you want as at the time nothing works. His choice was to build in the way he did, you're right he's very pragmatic. Just look at some of team selections, even the final where he left out most of his X factor backs, he generates a game plan for each game and selects a team for that plan. I can't imagine the press or the highly opinionated former players that steal a living making bland points will take particularly kindly to his selection process when he cuts whomever the current golden boy(s) is(are) to fit his plan. Particularly if it's one of his kick heavy schemes.

So I shouldn’t base what he might do for England based on what he put out in the field for Leicester because it was a one-off situation but I definitely shouldn’t expect ‘Borthwick to find an attaching streak’ because of what he’s put on the field with Leicester but he is pragmatic so he will change how his team plays based on the situation he is in?
You’ve also not explained how he applies a game plan of a string set piece, territorial dominance and only playing in the oppo half differently to every other coach.

Well if every other coach did the same thing Tigers wouldn't have made the European Quarter Finals and won the Prem would they.

I’m asking you how Borthwick applies that basic game plan differently based on you telling me that’s what he does.

[Mellsblue]

On the ‘who would we replace Jones with at short notice and with no obvious and available candidate’ debate, how does everyone feel about putting Deano in charge until a long term replacement is recruited post France ‘23?!?!?

[FKAS]

So I shouldn’t base what he might do for England based on what he put out in the field for Leicester because it was a one-off situation but I definitely shouldn’t expect ‘Borthwick to find an attaching streak’ because of what he’s put on the field with Leicester but he is pragmatic so he will change how his team plays based on the situation he is in?
You’ve also not explained how he applies a game plan of a string set piece, territorial dominance and only playing in the oppo half differently to every other coach.

Well if every other coach did the same thing Tigers wouldn't have made the European Quarter Finals and won the Prem would they.

I’m asking you how Borthwick applies that basic game plan differently based on you telling me that’s what he does.

The variations in game plan tend to be based around the strengths of the opposition so where he feels their pack is possibly physically dominant or much bigger pack he'll move Liebenburg across to 7 and play Martin at 6. Look to engage physically and then probably select a Reffell and Chessum combination off the bench to up the tempo of the Tigers pack.

Depending on the perceived kicking skills of the opposition depends on the amount of physicality he'll pick in his backline and where. He tends to like a power wing option but has tended to drop that option against teams he feels will be a territorial threat ala Leinster and Sarries. Against teams he suspects well dominate territory expect to find Porter or Scott in at 13 and a PI wing on the left to ensure that we can make the most of the ball we are expecting to get.

He makes the most of the S&C guru Tigers have as well, ensuring the team can play at the top of their game for long periods. Even Tigers second choice options can normally live with better sides on paper allowing the Borthwick power bench to come on and do damage. This might be a Walters inspired tactic as it's not dissimilar to the Book Bomb Squad. Tigers 'snatch' late wins in games has been put down to a lot of things by the media but in a lot of those games the impact of the subs bench has been telling. A couple of key subs used early in the second half to lift the tempo and gain momentum before the opposition replace any tiring players does seem to work consistently well, ask Northampton.

[FKAS]

On the ‘who would we replace Jones with at short notice and with no obvious and available candidate’ debate, how does everyone feel about putting Deano in charge until a long term replacement is recruited post France ‘23?!?!?

We'd be better off promoting Cockers and I don't like that idea either.

[Mellsblue]

Well if every other coach did the same thing Tigers wouldn't have made the European Quarter Finals and won the Prem would they.

I’m asking you how Borthwick applies that basic game plan differently based on you telling me that’s what he does.

The variations in game plan tend to be based around the strengths of the opposition so where he feels their pack is possibly physically dominant or much bigger pack he'll move Liebenburg across to 7 and play Martin at 6. Look to engage physically and then probably select a Reffell and Chessum combination off the bench to up the tempo of the Tigers pack.

Depending on the perceived kicking skills of the opposition depends on the amount of physicality he'll pick in his backline and where. He tends to like a power wing option but has tended to drop that option against teams he feels will be a territorial threat ala Leinster and Sarries. Against teams he suspects well dominate territory expect to find Porter or Scott in at 13 and a PI wing on the left to ensure that we can make the most of the ball we are expecting to get.

He makes the most of the S&C guru Tigers have as well, ensuring the team can play at the top of their game for long periods. Even Tigers second choice options can normally live with better sides on paper allowing the Borthwick power bench to come on and do damage. This might be a Walters inspired tactic as it's not dissimilar to the Book Bomb Squad. Tigers 'snatch' late wins in games has been put down to a lot of things by the media but in a lot of those games the impact of the subs bench has been telling. A couple of key subs used early in the second half to lift the tempo and gain momentum before the opposition replace any tiring players does seem to work consistently well, ask Northampton.

So, he plays the basics/foundations of the game very similarly to most of the top coaches but he’s just a top class, details orientated coach. He’s also clearly pragmatic so may move to a more attacking style if he has the players and isn’t dragging a team from the bottom of the Prem. It will be interesting to see how he expands Leicester next season. So far, it looks a lot like the Sarries build under Venter and then McCall.

[Puja]

I’m asking you how Borthwick applies that basic game plan differently based on you telling me that’s what he does.

The variations in game plan tend to be based around the strengths of the opposition so where he feels their pack is possibly physically dominant or much bigger pack he'll move Liebenburg across to 7 and play Martin at 6. Look to engage physically and then probably select a Reffell and Chessum combination off the bench to up the tempo of the Tigers pack.

Depending on the perceived kicking skills of the opposition depends on the amount of physicality he'll pick in his backline and where. He tends to like a power wing option but has tended to drop that option against teams he feels will be a territorial threat ala Leinster and Sarries. Against teams he suspects well dominate territory expect to find Porter or Scott in at 13 and a PI wing on the left to ensure that we can make the most of the ball we are expecting to get.

He makes the most of the S&C guru Tigers have as well, ensuring the team can play at the top of their game for long periods. Even Tigers second choice options can normally live with better sides on paper allowing the Borthwick power bench to come on and do damage. This might be a Walters inspired tactic as it's not dissimilar to the Book Bomb Squad. Tigers 'snatch' late wins in games has been put down to a lot of things by the media but in a lot of those games the impact of the subs bench has been telling. A couple of key subs used early in the second half to lift the tempo and gain momentum before the opposition replace any tiring players does seem to work consistently well, ask Northampton.

So, he plays the basics/foundations of the game very similarly to most of the top coaches but he’s just a top class, details orientated coach. He’s also clearly pragmatic so may move to a more attacking style if he has the players and isn’t dragging a team from the bottom of the Prem. It will be interesting to see how he expands Leicester next season. So far, it looks a lot like the Sarries build under Venter and then McCall.

We also haven't really had a top class attack coach either since Rob Taylor left. Matt Smith and Wigglesworth will be very good coaches, but they're very green and maybe they might start imposing a better attack structure with an additional season's experience and another season for Borthwick to be building the squad and culture that he wants.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

The variations in game plan tend to be based around the strengths of the opposition so where he feels their pack is possibly physically dominant or much bigger pack he'll move Liebenburg across to 7 and play Martin at 6. Look to engage physically and then probably select a Reffell and Chessum combination off the bench to up the tempo of the Tigers pack.

Depending on the perceived kicking skills of the opposition depends on the amount of physicality he'll pick in his backline and where. He tends to like a power wing option but has tended to drop that option against teams he feels will be a territorial threat ala Leinster and Sarries. Against teams he suspects well dominate territory expect to find Porter or Scott in at 13 and a PI wing on the left to ensure that we can make the most of the ball we are expecting to get.

He makes the most of the S&C guru Tigers have as well, ensuring the team can play at the top of their game for long periods. Even Tigers second choice options can normally live with better sides on paper allowing the Borthwick power bench to come on and do damage. This might be a Walters inspired tactic as it's not dissimilar to the Book Bomb Squad. Tigers 'snatch' late wins in games has been put down to a lot of things by the media but in a lot of those games the impact of the subs bench has been telling. A couple of key subs used early in the second half to lift the tempo and gain momentum before the opposition replace any tiring players does seem to work consistently well, ask Northampton.

So, he plays the basics/foundations of the game very similarly to most of the top coaches but he’s just a top class, details orientated coach. He’s also clearly pragmatic so may move to a more attacking style if he has the players and isn’t dragging a team from the bottom of the Prem. It will be interesting to see how he expands Leicester next season. So far, it looks a lot like the Sarries build under Venter and then McCall.

We also haven't really had a top class attack coach either since Rob Taylor left. Matt Smith and Wigglesworth will be very good coaches, but they're very green and maybe they might start imposing a better attack structure with an additional season's experience and another season for Borthwick to be building the squad and culture that he wants.

Puja

I wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest and it’s a shame you don’t have Ford there to help implement it.

[Timbo]

Anyone know what the deal is with Dombrandt. And do we actually expect to tour Aus with Chick as number 8 if he’s crocked. Or just back to Curry at 8? Barbeary back in?

Well the obvious answer would be Billy, but I guess we’ll see …

Just watching the post match press conference, god knows why, he's struggling to go a few minutes at a time without insulting everybody asking the questions. Dombrandt to see a specialist tomorrow and Ford "not promising" but unsure, odd he answers that way after pointedly refusing to speculate on Dombrandt.

Also said Schickerling didn't fail his HIA??? WTF was happening then? Was it an error on the chyron or did he really sub Goodrick-Clarke on at TH, after bringing Collier back on (having subbed him off at 28 minutes) for a guy that passed his HIA prior to half-time? Something doesn't add up there.

I believe they do 3 HIA’s. Initial one is when the player is first removed and determines whether they come back on the field. Second is something like 30-60 minutes after the first one. If you fail that one there’s another around 4 hours after the initial head knock. Any signs or symptoms from the third HIA- cognitive tests, nausea, head or neck ache etc- then you have to go through GRTP protocol.

So (just a guess) possible he failed the initial hia, but passed the subsequent one during/at the end of the second half.