Ratings

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I think that was largely about suddenly being a number 8. Still has some nice touches and tip-on passes, as he did on Saturday, they just seem a lot less frequent? I guess expectations are high.

The headless chicken thing I suppose comes down to how you define it. Ludlam gets it when his hair bounces around too much, Jonny May would get it when he ran sideways all the time, with Curry there were times he'd seem to make a string of poor decision or conceding penalties and it just gets brushed off as over-eagerness. Again, he is class, and he barely seems to occupy the same role in the backrow for more than one 'campaign' in a row which I don't imagine helps.

[Peej]

With Curry out I'd have thought Willis needs to come straight in. We need more activity at the breakdown, and Ludlam and Underhill aren't going to provide it.

[Puja]

With Curry out I'd have thought Willis needs to come straight in. We need more activity at the breakdown, and Ludlam and Underhill aren't going to provide it.

I think Underhill is underrated at the breakdown. He's done some exceptional turnover work for England - not as dangerous at Willis, perhaps, but people on here seem to take him as a defensive option only, which isn't true.

I'd have Underhill/Willis as flankers, although I would accept Ludlam being swapped in for either. Lawes needs to be 5 or out.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Does anyone really expect Lawes to move?

[FKAS]

Harsh. If we’re expecting players to be faultless, we’re setting an impossible bar.

Steward is 21 and has been playing test rugby for a year or so. He’s taken to it like a duck to water and while he isn’t error free (see Peej’s reference to the defensive read for Petaia’s try), he doesn’t make a lot of mistakes and is comfortably our best fullback.

Sure his game has room for development, but he’s getting better at hitting good lines in attack and he has some playmaking ability when he’s in the position to use it. We’ve not seen as much of that for England, but that’s more to do with our tactics than it is with Steward IMO.

More to the point, we’ve got way bigger problems than worrying about what a 21 year old player who is already good needs to go to keep improving.

I thought Steward was one of our better backs, again. He was for me in the 6N as well. Nothing flash just gets the job done. Marchant was the same at the weekend. No fireworks but no stupid penalties, very little in the way of error count and gave the playmakers options.

I'd say Steward (and Marchant) are the least of our concerns as Scrumhead says.

Whether Steward continues to develop enough to command the shirt long term we'll see. He is a growing presence in the attack so hopefully he continues to grow into the role. He's a product of Tigers and Borthwick though, percentage rugby will be preferred over take high risks. Then again we had a 15 who did that and we were happy when Eddie moved him on. I suspect bar injury Steward will be the go to option for the world cup.

Being one of our better backs remains a low bar. He's great under the high ball, and a big unit, which could be deployed more as a carrier in different channels. If he has played 12, I'd like to see more and better handling. I'd prefer more gas there, and wouldn't object to seeing how Arundell or Freeman cope the other side of the ball- they are excellent attackers.
Marchant has done fine too, and he's the sort of running 13 I'd prefer and we have to have if you have the two receiver axis of doom.
We are just utterly unsure of what the best backline composition is- being slaves to a style is imo unhelpful, and actually un eddie like.

He played school boy rugby at 10 and then played 13 before Tigers academy converted him to 15. Loughborough University used him at 13 as a focus point for their wider attacking game.

His handling skills are reliably good. He links well with his wingers, capable of the long spin pass off of both hands. I'd like to see him develop his offload game further because he's a big unit and if he starts swinging the ball out of contact then it'll cause a lot of problems.

[Oakboy]

Does anyone really expect Lawes to move?

I'd be very surprised if Jones moves him.

[Stom]

I think curry was worth more than smith, but a 9 is insane, he wasn’t that good. Probably a 7, with smith bumped down to 6. Lud was showreel for me. Lots of floppy hair carries and interventions but not a lot of real substance.

As ever under jones, it’s hard to pick a standout. Which in a way is a good thing: the team lives and dies by its team wide performance. But I do feel we’re missing out on some performances.

Am I alone in thinking Curry hasn't really been that great for quite a while? His base level is generally very good, I'm not denying that, it just feels like he gets rated as world class by default now. He never seems to face the same criticism as Ludlam, despite doing the headless chicken thing a fair amount too.

I'm not sure how much he's just been messed about with the positional changes and this determination he has to carry in to heavy traffic and bump people. He's certainly added to his game in a number of ways, but at risk of sounding like [redacted] I'd love to see more of those classic openside skills on display. He's just such a good link player when he's on it.

I think he's generally excellent. He gets to rucks super quick and he's very active once he gets there. The problem is, he still makes stupid mistakes, like the penalty he gave away in front of the posts when he ripped the ball while lying on the floor, right in front of the ref. I don't care if you think you'd already done enough to win the penalty, you let the bloody thing go, you eejit.

Anyway. I, too, would like to see Willis in for Curry.

[Banquo]

I think curry was worth more than smith, but a 9 is insane, he wasn’t that good. Probably a 7, with smith bumped down to 6. Lud was showreel for me. Lots of floppy hair carries and interventions but not a lot of real substance.

As ever under jones, it’s hard to pick a standout. Which in a way is a good thing: the team lives and dies by its team wide performance. But I do feel we’re missing out on some performances.

Am I alone in thinking Curry hasn't really been that great for quite a while? His base level is generally very good, I'm not denying that, it just feels like he gets rated as world class by default now. He never seems to face the same criticism as Ludlam, despite doing the headless chicken thing a fair amount too.

I'm not sure how much he's just been messed about with the positional changes and this determination he has to carry in to heavy traffic and bump people. He's certainly added to his game in a number of ways, but at risk of sounding like [redacted] I'd love to see more of those classic openside skills on display. He's just such a good link player when he's on it.

Does he?

The only thing I really see about Curry is that he only ever runs into contact, which is largely wrong, but he seems to now have that label.

He’s a very good player, who would look absolutely superb in a firing team.

[Banquo]

I thought Steward was one of our better backs, again. He was for me in the 6N as well. Nothing flash just gets the job done. Marchant was the same at the weekend. No fireworks but no stupid penalties, very little in the way of error count and gave the playmakers options.

I'd say Steward (and Marchant) are the least of our concerns as Scrumhead says.

Whether Steward continues to develop enough to command the shirt long term we'll see. He is a growing presence in the attack so hopefully he continues to grow into the role. He's a product of Tigers and Borthwick though, percentage rugby will be preferred over take high risks. Then again we had a 15 who did that and we were happy when Eddie moved him on. I suspect bar injury Steward will be the go to option for the world cup.

Being one of our better backs remains a low bar. He's great under the high ball, and a big unit, which could be deployed more as a carrier in different channels. If he has played 12, I'd like to see more and better handling. I'd prefer more gas there, and wouldn't object to seeing how Arundell or Freeman cope the other side of the ball- they are excellent attackers.
Marchant has done fine too, and he's the sort of running 13 I'd prefer and we have to have if you have the two receiver axis of doom.
We are just utterly unsure of what the best backline composition is- being slaves to a style is imo unhelpful, and actually un eddie like.

He played school boy rugby at 10 and then played 13 before Tigers academy converted him to 15. Loughborough University used him at 13 as a focus point for their wider attacking game.

His handling skills are reliably good. He links well with his wingers, capable of the long spin pass off of both hands. I'd like to see him develop his offload game further because he's a big unit and if he starts swinging the ball out of contact then it'll cause a lot of problems.

Apols I’d misremembered your previous espousal of his positional experience. His handling skills may be reliable at club level, but hardly been seen internationally other than a couple of knocks on I remember. Even if he produces them, need known 15 cover.

[Puja]

Does anyone really expect Lawes to move?

I'd be very surprised if Jones moves him.

There was rumour of that being on the cards before the tour and the Barbarians selection had Cunderhill with Lawes in the bench lock spot, so it has definitely been on his mind. Whether he'll pull the trigger, who knows.

Puja

[Banquo]

Does anyone really expect Lawes to move?

I'd be very surprised if Jones moves him.

There was rumour of that being on the cards before the tour and the Barbarians selection had Cunderhill with Lawes in the bench lock spot, so it has definitely been on his mind. Whether he'll pull the trigger, who knows.

Puja

Problem is that Lawes has lost a lot of weight and hasn’t started at lock for ages, not even at Saints iirc. And the tighthead lock thing. But I’d be very tempted.

[FKAS]

Being one of our better backs remains a low bar. He's great under the high ball, and a big unit, which could be deployed more as a carrier in different channels. If he has played 12, I'd like to see more and better handling. I'd prefer more gas there, and wouldn't object to seeing how Arundell or Freeman cope the other side of the ball- they are excellent attackers.
Marchant has done fine too, and he's the sort of running 13 I'd prefer and we have to have if you have the two receiver axis of doom.
We are just utterly unsure of what the best backline composition is- being slaves to a style is imo unhelpful, and actually un eddie like.

He played school boy rugby at 10 and then played 13 before Tigers academy converted him to 15. Loughborough University used him at 13 as a focus point for their wider attacking game.

His handling skills are reliably good. He links well with his wingers, capable of the long spin pass off of both hands. I'd like to see him develop his offload game further because he's a big unit and if he starts swinging the ball out of contact then it'll cause a lot of problems.

Apols I’d misremembered your previous espousal of his positional experience. His handling skills may be reliable at club level, but hardly been seen internationally other than a couple of knocks on I remember. Even if he produces them, need known 15 cover.

All players knock the ball on occasionally. The only one I remember from Saturday was what should have been a break in our own half. Steward ran a great line and Smith delayed the pass nicely. Unfortunately Smith fired it at Freddie instead of the sympathetic pop which was required and it was knocked on. Steward will have still wanted to do better but it is perhaps a good example of thing just not quite clicking for England. Whether Smith expected a wider run from Steward so as to require the harder pass we won't know. Otherwise I think his handling is well down the list of current issues as it's been solid.

If the attack was working we might see more experimentation but as it stands Steward sorts out what was a problem position and can build up his own experience. He is two years younger than Smith so more game time won't hurt. It looks like Furbank is currently earmarked as 15 cover as he also covers 10 and that's handy for the group stages. Smith was also dropped back to 15 Vs France so we could go dual playmaker which might be an on game injury cover option.

I'd like to see Freeman get another chance though probably on the wing. I still think he and Steward could combine well at the back and it would free up Arundell if deployed on the other wing to go looking for opportunities.

[Banquo]

He played school boy rugby at 10 and then played 13 before Tigers academy converted him to 15. Loughborough University used him at 13 as a focus point for their wider attacking game.

His handling skills are reliably good. He links well with his wingers, capable of the long spin pass off of both hands. I'd like to see him develop his offload game further because he's a big unit and if he starts swinging the ball out of contact then it'll cause a lot of problems.

Apols I’d misremembered your previous espousal of his positional experience. His handling skills may be reliable at club level, but hardly been seen internationally other than a couple of knocks on I remember. Even if he produces them, need known 15 cover.

All players knock the ball on occasionally. The only one I remember from Saturday was what should have been a break in our own half. Steward ran a great line and Smith delayed the pass nicely. Unfortunately Smith fired it at Freddie instead of the sympathetic pop which was required and it was knocked on. Steward will have still wanted to do better but it is perhaps a good example of thing just not quite clicking for England. Whether Smith expected a wider run from Steward so as to require the harder pass we won't know. Otherwise I think his handling is well down the list of current issues as it's been solid.

If the attack was working we might see more experimentation but as it stands Steward sorts out what was a problem position and can build up his own experience. He is two years younger than Smith so more game time won't hurt. It looks like Furbank is currently earmarked as 15 cover as he also covers 10 and that's handy for the group stages. Smith was also dropped back to 15 Vs France so we could go dual playmaker which might be an on game injury cover option.

I'd like to see Freeman get another chance though probably on the wing. I still think he and Steward could combine well at the back and it would free up Arundell if deployed on the other wing to go looking for opportunities.

Have to take your word on his handling as I have a tiny evidence base . Just want to see more from him, not a negative just in case Scrumhead is monitoring me . Furbs doesn't convince me as a prem 15 tbh, although he is very talented- great ball player, but a bit suspect positionally still.
Not averse to that three full back combo, though not a fan of non specialist wings per se (and before anyone says it, Daly should have been a perma wing imo). It has a nice balance to it in terms of running skills and build.

[FKAS]

Apols I’d misremembered your previous espousal of his positional experience. His handling skills may be reliable at club level, but hardly been seen internationally other than a couple of knocks on I remember. Even if he produces them, need known 15 cover.

All players knock the ball on occasionally. The only one I remember from Saturday was what should have been a break in our own half. Steward ran a great line and Smith delayed the pass nicely. Unfortunately Smith fired it at Freddie instead of the sympathetic pop which was required and it was knocked on. Steward will have still wanted to do better but it is perhaps a good example of thing just not quite clicking for England. Whether Smith expected a wider run from Steward so as to require the harder pass we won't know. Otherwise I think his handling is well down the list of current issues as it's been solid.

If the attack was working we might see more experimentation but as it stands Steward sorts out what was a problem position and can build up his own experience. He is two years younger than Smith so more game time won't hurt. It looks like Furbank is currently earmarked as 15 cover as he also covers 10 and that's handy for the group stages. Smith was also dropped back to 15 Vs France so we could go dual playmaker which might be an on game injury cover option.

I'd like to see Freeman get another chance though probably on the wing. I still think he and Steward could combine well at the back and it would free up Arundell if deployed on the other wing to go looking for opportunities.

Have to take your word on his handling as I have a tiny evidence base . Just want to see more from him, not a negative just in case Scrumhead is monitoring me . Furbs doesn't convince me as a prem 15 tbh, although he is very talented- great ball player, but a bit suspect positionally still.
Not averse to that three full back combo, though not a fan of non specialist wings per se (and before anyone says it, Daly should have been a perma wing imo). It has a nice balance to it in terms of running skills and build.

Yeah I'm not convinced by Furbank either. Well at international level anyway.

In his 30 starts Freeman has been split 50/50 wing and fullback. At this point he should be just as comfortable in either. Otherwise yes I agree I'm not a fan of shoving specialist fullbacks onto the wing.

[Banquo]

All players knock the ball on occasionally. The only one I remember from Saturday was what should have been a break in our own half. Steward ran a great line and Smith delayed the pass nicely. Unfortunately Smith fired it at Freddie instead of the sympathetic pop which was required and it was knocked on. Steward will have still wanted to do better but it is perhaps a good example of thing just not quite clicking for England. Whether Smith expected a wider run from Steward so as to require the harder pass we won't know. Otherwise I think his handling is well down the list of current issues as it's been solid.

If the attack was working we might see more experimentation but as it stands Steward sorts out what was a problem position and can build up his own experience. He is two years younger than Smith so more game time won't hurt. It looks like Furbank is currently earmarked as 15 cover as he also covers 10 and that's handy for the group stages. Smith was also dropped back to 15 Vs France so we could go dual playmaker which might be an on game injury cover option.

I'd like to see Freeman get another chance though probably on the wing. I still think he and Steward could combine well at the back and it would free up Arundell if deployed on the other wing to go looking for opportunities.

Have to take your word on his handling as I have a tiny evidence base . Just want to see more from him, not a negative just in case Scrumhead is monitoring me . Furbs doesn't convince me as a prem 15 tbh, although he is very talented- great ball player, but a bit suspect positionally still.
Not averse to that three full back combo, though not a fan of non specialist wings per se (and before anyone says it, Daly should have been a perma wing imo). It has a nice balance to it in terms of running skills and build.

Yeah I'm not convinced by Furbank either. Well at international level anyway.

In his 30 starts Freeman has been split 50/50 wing and fullback. At this point he should be just as comfortable in either. Otherwise yes I agree I'm not a fan of shoving specialist fullbacks onto the wing.

Fair- but for Furbank he'd be at 15 mostly imo- he just looks like one. But he is a very good finisher, and I'm keen he plays for us.

[Beasties]

I think curry was worth more than smith, but a 9 is insane, he wasn’t that good. Probably a 7, with smith bumped down to 6. Lud was showreel for me. Lots of floppy hair carries and interventions but not a lot of real substance.

As ever under jones, it’s hard to pick a standout. Which in a way is a good thing: the team lives and dies by its team wide performance. But I do feel we’re missing out on some performances.

Am I alone in thinking Curry hasn't really been that great for quite a while? His base level is generally very good, I'm not denying that, it just feels like he gets rated as world class by default now. He never seems to face the same criticism as Ludlam, despite doing the headless chicken thing a fair amount too.

I'm not sure how much he's just been messed about with the positional changes and this determination he has to carry in to heavy traffic and bump people. He's certainly added to his game in a number of ways, but at risk of sounding like [redacted] I'd love to see more of those classic openside skills on display. He's just such a good link player when he's on it.

Has [redacted] been banned? I didn’t get the memo.

[Beasties]

I think curry was worth more than smith, but a 9 is insane, he wasn’t that good. Probably a 7, with smith bumped down to 6. Lud was showreel for me. Lots of floppy hair carries and interventions but not a lot of real substance.

As ever under jones, it’s hard to pick a standout. Which in a way is a good thing: the team lives and dies by its team wide performance. But I do feel we’re missing out on some performances.

Am I alone in thinking Curry hasn't really been that great for quite a while? His base level is generally very good, I'm not denying that, it just feels like he gets rated as world class by default now. He never seems to face the same criticism as Ludlam, despite doing the headless chicken thing a fair amount too.

I'm not sure how much he's just been messed about with the positional changes and this determination he has to carry in to heavy traffic and bump people. He's certainly added to his game in a number of ways, but at risk of sounding like [redacted] I'd love to see more of those classic openside skills on display. He's just such a good link player when he's on it.

I think he's generally excellent. He gets to rucks super quick and he's very active once he gets there. The problem is, he still makes stupid mistakes, like the penalty he gave away in front of the posts when he ripped the ball while lying on the floor, right in front of the ref. I don't care if you think you'd already done enough to win the penalty, you let the bloody thing go, you eejit.

Anyway. I, too, would like to see Willis in for Curry.

I didn’t want Willis anywhere near this tour, but he’s here now. I then wanted Willis and Curry to start one match at least. Not gonna happen now. I reckon Eddie’s keen to get him involved, but has been as frustrated as the rest of us with the poor lad’s misfortune. He’s either gonna stick him in now or use the entire tour as time in camp with a view to 5 mins in the AIs given past Eddie logic.