Australia vs England - Third Test

[Freddo]

I think Smith was the biggest disappointment from the tour and I don't really blame him for it. What is Eddie expecting from him? Says he wants Farrell to play at 12 so he can run the game from there. There was no indication in any of the tests that Smith was playing his natural game which is what I assume his quote was alluding to?

[Mr Mwenda]

Thought there were some decent dabs from Smith in the third test....

[Spiffy]

The England 10/12/13 axis is clearly not working, as everyone here with half a rugby brain predicted.

Jones should consider this : Drop Faz; keep Smith at 10; in the absence of other candidates, convert Freddie Steward (6'5" and close to 17 st.) into a hard-running 12 (with real mass, if not gas,but he's probably faster than Faz anyway); move Freeman to FB; restore Marchant to 13; give Arundell much more game time than his regulation final 5 min. Couldn't be worse that the daft tinkering he has done.

[Mellsblue]

Freddie Steward the new Jamie Roberts.

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. I think centre would be the perfect position, aside from maybe the front 5, for entirely removing his greatest strength from the game.

[Spiffy]

Yep. I think centre would be the perfect position, aside from maybe the front 5, for entirely removing his greatest strength from the game.

It's all for the common good, and both Freeman and Arundell have the makings of very good FBs. Could anything be more dull and non-productive than the current set up? You know my post was slightly tongue-in-cheek, but not entirely.

[pandion]

Evening chaps. Is there any backstory of a fallout like Care had but with Lozowski? I can't get my head around his omission when the midfield is still a mess

[Banquo]

Evening chaps. Is there any backstory of a fallout like Care had but with Lozowski? I can't get my head around his omission when the midfield is still a mess

Well he isn’t nailed on starter for Sarries, he’s up against Faz the wonder12 for England and the very good Tomkins at Sarries, and a lot of those who started v Japan a few years were summarily sent away never to return. So pick any of those. I like Loz, but I remember a chat about his versatility hampering him, and I think it has. He’s a decent 10, very good 12, ok at 13 and has been at 15 and wing for Sarries too.

[FKAS]

Evening chaps. Is there any backstory of a fallout like Care had but with Lozowski? I can't get my head around his omission when the midfield is still a mess

He's Slade with more pace but inferior defence. I presume Eddie didn't feel he needed two players offering very similar things. Dropping Lozowski into the midfield isn't going to offer us a running threat which has generally been the issue.

[Banquo]

Yep. I think centre would be the perfect position, aside from maybe the front 5, for entirely removing his greatest strength from the game.

His kick chase is a weapon in attack, like Biggar….alongside being brilliant under the high ball and elusive in attack. I’d hate to lose all that unless there is something that much better at other stuff. Arundell might be, but untested without the ball; Freeman is bloody good and offers different skills going forward but Stewards aerial game and strength in attack from 15 are pretty compelling.

[Banquo]

Evening chaps. Is there any backstory of a fallout like Care had but with Lozowski? I can't get my head around his omission when the midfield is still a mess

He's Slade with more pace but inferior defence. I presume Eddie didn't feel he needed two players offering very similar things. Dropping Lozowski into the midfield isn't going to offer us a running threat which has generally been the issue.

Don’t agree tbh, he’s a running threat at 12 with good distribution. His pace makes him a threat there or indeed at 13. But he’s not established himself in any one position. Slades defence isn’t that good either.

[Mikey Brown]

I feel like Lozowski hits really hard in defence too, but not sure how his general positioning compares.

I think he played almost exclusively 10 in France but came back to Sarries to be a 2nd/3rd choice centre. It’s a shame with his huge list of positive attributes if he can’t make more of it. Not actually played 12 much has he?

[FKAS]

Evening chaps. Is there any backstory of a fallout like Care had but with Lozowski? I can't get my head around his omission when the midfield is still a mess

He's Slade with more pace but inferior defence. I presume Eddie didn't feel he needed two players offering very similar things. Dropping Lozowski into the midfield isn't going to offer us a running threat which has generally been the issue.

Don’t agree tbh, he’s a running threat at 12 with good distribution. His pace makes him a threat there or indeed at 13. But he’s not established himself in any one position. Slades defence isn’t that good either.

Slade is an excellent defensive 13, one if not the best one in the Prem. His one on one tackling is very good and his positioning better. I'm not a particular Slade fan but in this area he is exceptional.

Lozowski isn't going to provide the direct running we are missing and having been in and out the Sarries side he's not exactly making a case to usurp Slade or Farrell as the midfield secondary playmaker.

Lozowski is a very good centre but he'd have been better leaving Sarries instead of renewing his contract this season. On loan in France he had a lot more freedom to play and flourished but also had a stellar team around him. It's not a good luck when Daly beats you out of the 13 shirt for the business end of the season.

[Banquo]

I feel like Lozowski hits really hard in defence too, but not sure how his general positioning compares.

I think he played almost exclusively 10 in France but came back to Sarries to be a 2nd/3rd choice centre. It’s a shame with his huge list of positive attributes if he can’t make more of it. Not actually played 12 much has he?

Not enough was the essence of my point But its his best position imo.

[Mellsblue]

He's Slade with more pace but inferior defence. I presume Eddie didn't feel he needed two players offering very similar things. Dropping Lozowski into the midfield isn't going to offer us a running threat which has generally been the issue.

Don’t agree tbh, he’s a running threat at 12 with good distribution. His pace makes him a threat there or indeed at 13. But he’s not established himself in any one position. Slades defence isn’t that good either.

Slade is an excellent defensive 13, one if not the best one in the Prem. His one on one tackling is very good and his positioning better. I'm not a particular Slade fan but in this area he is exceptional.

Lozowski isn't going to provide the direct running we are missing and having been in and out the Sarries side he's not exactly making a case to usurp Slade or Farrell as the midfield secondary playmaker.

Lozowski is a very good centre but he'd have been better leaving Sarries instead of renewing his contract this season. On loan in France he had a lot more freedom to play and flourished but also had a stellar team around him. It's not a good luck when Daly beats you out of the 13 shirt for the business end of the season.

He played in a very regimented team at Montpellier that finished tenth in the league with only two teams winning less matches. Not exactly a stellar team. He also played flyhalf so it isn’t really relevant to whether he should play centre for England, other than it being more evidence that he should have nailed down a set position a lot earlier.

[Banquo]

He's Slade with more pace but inferior defence. I presume Eddie didn't feel he needed two players offering very similar things. Dropping Lozowski into the midfield isn't going to offer us a running threat which has generally been the issue.

Don’t agree tbh, he’s a running threat at 12 with good distribution. His pace makes him a threat there or indeed at 13. But he’s not established himself in any one position. Slades defence isn’t that good either.

Slade is an excellent defensive 13, one if not the best one in the Prem. His one on one tackling is very good and his positioning better. I'm not a particular Slade fan but in this area he is exceptional.

Lozowski isn't going to provide the direct running we are missing and having been in and out the Sarries side he's not exactly making a case to usurp Slade or Farrell as the midfield secondary playmaker.

Lozowski is a very good centre but he'd have been better leaving Sarries instead of renewing his contract this season. On loan in France he had a lot more freedom to play and flourished but also had a stellar team around him. It's not a good luck when Daly beats you out of the 13 shirt for the business end of the season.

He is not an 'exceptional' defender at 13 at international level, nor at club level imo. His one on one is ok, though he isn't that big, and his positional play is 'better' as you put it from a low base, and still gets exposed at intl level. He still bites in when he shouldn't.
I don't agree, as before, that Lozowski can't provide the direct running we need- he is genuinely quick, and hits good lines- you don't have to be of Manu proportions to be a 'direct runner'- its another thing folks get hung up on. But you are right....and I said exactly the same....that he isn't in the Sarries team enough to lay down a marker. Loz's issue is not establishing one position for himself- there, I've said that again

Funnily I agree on Daly, but he was after all the starting Lions test 13, and is pretty good there at prem level.

[pandion]

I think 12 is his best now definitely but his versatility must make him a better squad option than Furbank? Unless Eddie will die on the double 10 hill I can't understand why he's not been considered again. We don't have a bosh 12 unless Manu is fit. That's a big if.

[Banquo]

I think 12 is his best now definitely but his versatility must make him a better squad option than Furbank? Unless Eddie will die on the double 10 hill I can't understand why he's not been considered again. We don't have a bosh 12 unless Manu is fit. That's a big if.

He's only an option if holding down a regular slot- and Furbank has the theoretical benefit of specialist cover at 15 and is actually a good 10. But he's dropped down the order now anyway.
And you are correct on the bosh option not being there, and (imo) the double 10 thing not working; you need running centres.

But I'll go back to the Japan game- lots disappeared after that ...Loz, Mercer were just two from memory.

[pandion]

I think 12 is his best now definitely but his versatility must make him a better squad option than Furbank? Unless Eddie will die on the double 10 hill I can't understand why he's not been considered again. We don't have a bosh 12 unless Manu is fit. That's a big if.

He's only an option if holding down a regular slot- and Furbank has the theoretical benefit of specialist cover at 15 and is actually a good 10. But he's dropped down the order now anyway.
And you are correct on the bosh option not being there, and (imo) the double 10 thing not working; you need running centres.

But I'll go back to the Japan game- lots disappeared after that ...Loz, Mercer were just two from memory.

In fairness to Loz, Tompkins is playing out of his skin right now and there has to be an argument for being in one of the top set ups. I think he'd start in most sides if he left Sarries.

[Banquo]

I think 12 is his best now definitely but his versatility must make him a better squad option than Furbank? Unless Eddie will die on the double 10 hill I can't understand why he's not been considered again. We don't have a bosh 12 unless Manu is fit. That's a big if.

He's only an option if holding down a regular slot- and Furbank has the theoretical benefit of specialist cover at 15 and is actually a good 10. But he's dropped down the order now anyway.
And you are correct on the bosh option not being there, and (imo) the double 10 thing not working; you need running centres.

But I'll go back to the Japan game- lots disappeared after that ...Loz, Mercer were just two from memory.

In fairness to Loz, Tompkins is playing out of his skin right now and there has to be an argument for being in one of the top set ups. I think he'd start in most sides if he left Sarries.

Well yes, that’s why I mentioned Tompkins cos he is good. But you asked why he’s not in the England mix, and the reasons are as said imo. I rate him, but he needs to be playing if Edlar is to shift.

[pandion]

He's only an option if holding down a regular slot- and Furbank has the theoretical benefit of specialist cover at 15 and is actually a good 10. But he's dropped down the order now anyway.
And you are correct on the bosh option not being there, and (imo) the double 10 thing not working; you need running centres.

But I'll go back to the Japan game- lots disappeared after that ...Loz, Mercer were just two from memory.

In fairness to Loz, Tompkins is playing out of his skin right now and there has to be an argument for being in one of the top set ups. I think he'd start in most sides if he left Sarries.

Well yes, that’s why I mentioned Tompkins cos he is good. But you asked why he’s not in the England mix, and the reasons are as said imo. I rate him, but he needs to be playing if Edlar is to shift.

I know it's probably irrelevant to this WC but how much longer does Tompkins have before he goes to a Welsh region?

[Oakboy]

It's symptomatic of this era that we are not getting the best out of players. With the forwards improving and decent ball available more, we should be optimistic about the future if only Jones could get the 9 and 12 sorted. Wherever he plays, 12 or 13, I still think Slade has the best hands but we hardly ever get the best of them.

With Steward settling at FB and with May, Watson and Daly to come back (at least into the squad) we ought to match anyone for pace and creativity.

Maybe Jones will surprise me and finally get some 'best possible' performances going.

[FKAS]

Don’t agree tbh, he’s a running threat at 12 with good distribution. His pace makes him a threat there or indeed at 13. But he’s not established himself in any one position. Slades defence isn’t that good either.

Slade is an excellent defensive 13, one if not the best one in the Prem. His one on one tackling is very good and his positioning better. I'm not a particular Slade fan but in this area he is exceptional.

Lozowski isn't going to provide the direct running we are missing and having been in and out the Sarries side he's not exactly making a case to usurp Slade or Farrell as the midfield secondary playmaker.

Lozowski is a very good centre but he'd have been better leaving Sarries instead of renewing his contract this season. On loan in France he had a lot more freedom to play and flourished but also had a stellar team around him. It's not a good luck when Daly beats you out of the 13 shirt for the business end of the season.

He is not an 'exceptional' defender at 13 at international level, nor at club level imo. His one on one is ok, though he isn't that big, and his positional play is 'better' as you put it from a low base, and still gets exposed at intl level. He still bites in when he shouldn't.
I don't agree, as before, that Lozowski can't provide the direct running we need- he is genuinely quick, and hits good lines- you don't have to be of Manu proportions to be a 'direct runner'- its another thing folks get hung up on. But you are right....and I said exactly the same....that he isn't in the Sarries team enough to lay down a marker. Loz's issue is not establishing one position for himself- there, I've said that again

Funnily I agree on Daly, but he was after all the starting Lions test 13, and is pretty good there at prem level.

See I remember a younger Slade doing a man marking job on Manu and just chopping him low every time he got the ball. Not sure size is always a good representative of defence but 6ft4 and 15 and a half stone ain't exactly small. We'll have to agree to disagree on his defensive abilities.

Lozowski doesn't play direct for Sarries who use Tompkins/Daly/Morris in that role nor did he when he played in France. Lozowski's main attacking skill is his turn of pace and outside break. Which is why Sarries tend to line him up at 13. I like him as a player but it's easy to see why Eddie has overlooked him, there's not an obvious USP or a body of form that demands selection.

[Mellsblue]

If only he worked hard like Porter.

[Banquo]

Slade is an excellent defensive 13, one if not the best one in the Prem. His one on one tackling is very good and his positioning better. I'm not a particular Slade fan but in this area he is exceptional.

Lozowski isn't going to provide the direct running we are missing and having been in and out the Sarries side he's not exactly making a case to usurp Slade or Farrell as the midfield secondary playmaker.

Lozowski is a very good centre but he'd have been better leaving Sarries instead of renewing his contract this season. On loan in France he had a lot more freedom to play and flourished but also had a stellar team around him. It's not a good luck when Daly beats you out of the 13 shirt for the business end of the season.

He is not an 'exceptional' defender at 13 at international level, nor at club level imo. His one on one is ok, though he isn't that big, and his positional play is 'better' as you put it from a low base, and still gets exposed at intl level. He still bites in when he shouldn't.
I don't agree, as before, that Lozowski can't provide the direct running we need- he is genuinely quick, and hits good lines- you don't have to be of Manu proportions to be a 'direct runner'- its another thing folks get hung up on. But you are right....and I said exactly the same....that he isn't in the Sarries team enough to lay down a marker. Loz's issue is not establishing one position for himself- there, I've said that again

Funnily I agree on Daly, but he was after all the starting Lions test 13, and is pretty good there at prem level.

See I remember a younger Slade doing a man marking job on Manu and just chopping him low every time he got the ball. Not sure size is always a good representative of defence but 6ft4 and 15 and a half stone ain't exactly small. We'll have to agree to disagree on his defensive abilities.

Lozowski doesn't play direct for Sarries who use Tompkins/Daly/Morris in that role nor did he when he played in France. Lozowski's main attacking skill is his turn of pace and outside break. Which is why Sarries tend to line him up at 13. I like him as a player but it's easy to see why Eddie has overlooked him, there's not an obvious USP or a body of form that demands selection.

Thats why I said his one on one was ok, obviously.As you yourself said his positional play was `better'... which doesnt suggest its great now, and indicates it had been worse. Given positional ability in defence is key to 13, I dont get where you get that he is exceptional in defence. I just think he is not that great, so as you say, we wont agree.
On Sarries I pretty clearly said he cant past Tompkins, a very good 12. And he played 10 in France. My vew is that if we remain wedded to a second distributor at 12 then Loz would give you the running treat that Faz or Slade dont, cos hes quick. But as I also said at least twice, Eddie wont look at him whilst hes in and out of Sarries 23 with no fixed position. Just commenting on what I see as his strengths and how they could be used.