England v SA- same larger squad

[Mikey Brown]

Depressing hammering. But for Du Toits red, it would have been way worse. Both front rows were murdered, Hill is an idiot, back row anonymous, and the younger backs off their games bar one or two moments. Faz missing two sitters didnt help, but dont think mattered, we were nobbed up front by an excellent relentless pack.

Nobbed!!!! just brilliant

Men against boys today.

Horrible combination of phrases, but yeah.

For some reason I watched the 4 minute highlights. It was a shame not see Mako's acrobatics in the scrum that won us the first penalty again.

Arendse's block looks worse than I thought the first time, but it was so well executed after that.

Completely missed Etzebeth's try at the time though. What the fuck was that? Scrumhalf knocks the ball on, to a player who is on the floor, who then dots it down? Doesn't change anything much, just weird.

[Mellsblue]

McCall though he's got a long contract at sarries I believe.

Has stated he doesn’t want it. Can’t blame him.

Highest paid job in rugby with a large talent pool. Says a lot that anyone doesn't want it let alone the most successful DOR producing numerous coaches and international players from our league. Must be a toxic place

Irish man at a club challenging every season for honours, in a rewarding culture, in a well paid job who has just taken an unexplained few months off work doesn’t want a more pressurised job with England shock.
Not sure it’s solely about the challenges of the England job.

[Spiffy]

Bottom line - England do not have the quality of players, specially in midfield, to forge ahead. Or perhaps they do, but Jones just keeps selecting the same old dross who are not capable of playing inventive rugby, and continues to impose a negative game plan with too much kicking the ball away.
Time for a massive clean out of the Augean stables. There are not many games left before the RWC but the current roster of players will not do well. They have shown they are not up to it (never mind a fluke 10 min purple patch against a switched off NZ.) Might as well consider drastic changes, since there is nothing much to lose.
Of course this is not going to happen,and Jones considers the team is still on the right track.
Those who should definitely go : M.Vunipola, Sinckler, Hill, B. Vunipola, Youngs, Farrell, Tuilagi, May, Nowell - just for starters.
But don't hold yer breath.

[Skalyba]

Jones has to go but a new coach can't magic a competitive front row. That said Hill, both vunipolas, youngs and nowell have to go.

Stick with Ribbans and Itijoe through to the WC. Curry , Willis and lawes as the flankers, Dombrant and Mercer as the 8's.

I don't mind Farr starting at 10 with Smith on the bench, but would prefer Ford in the mix. If Tuilagi plays it has to at 12 to keeps defences honest, then Slade or Lawrence at 13 depending on opposition. Happy for May to keep in the side but we need to give the wings the chance to do more than chase kicks

[Beasties]

What was the thinking that brought Nowell onto the pitch at half-time? Was Freeman struggling more than my eyes told me?

[FKAS]

Has stated he doesn’t want it. Can’t blame him.

Highest paid job in rugby with a large talent pool. Says a lot that anyone doesn't want it let alone the most successful DOR producing numerous coaches and international players from our league. Must be a toxic place

Irish man at a club challenging every season for honours, in a rewarding culture, in a well paid job who has just taken an unexplained few months off work doesn’t want a more pressurised job with England shock.
Not sure it’s solely about the challenges of the England job.

It was leave on medical grounds, by all accounts Sarries looked after him as well so I'd be surprised if opted to leave unless it was retirement.

[Mikey Brown]

What was the thinking that brought Nowell onto the pitch at half-time? Was Freeman struggling more than my eyes told me?

Freeman bumbled a high ball between him and Steward. Can barely remember him being involved other than that, and not sure who’s fault that would be.

Sacrificial lamb? There was some talk of an HIA but I didn’t catch whether that was the actual reason or not. Rushing a young player back in after injury to then do that doesn’t seem ideal. I’m sure Boyd will be thrilled.

At least Nowell made a break or two, that should get him another dozen caps or so. I was impressed by his initial speed after breaking through and he still got run down easily. Has he got the opposite of what they call deceptive pace?

[fivepointer]

ESPN stats show Freeman didnt touch the ball during the game. No runs, no passes.

Nowell showed up pretty well, i thought.

[p/d]

Felt for Freeman. Early kicks were poor, to say the least, for him to chase. Swapping him out at half time for a scrum cap was never a solution towards changing things.

A brave coach would have gone with pulling Faz for Slade at that stage.

[Oakboy]

Felt for Freeman. Early kicks were poor, to say the least, for him to chase. Swapping him out at half time for a scrum cap was never a solution towards changing things.

A brave coach would have gone with pulling Faz for Slade at that stage.

P/d, summing us up as led by a coach with no brave thoughts in his head and who relies on poor kicking, is OK with me.

[p/d]

Felt for Freeman. Early kicks were poor, to say the least, for him to chase. Swapping him out at half time for a scrum cap was never a solution towards changing things.

A brave coach would have gone with pulling Faz for Slade at that stage.

P/d, summing us up as led by a coach with no brave thoughts in his head and who relies on poor kicking, is OK with me.

To be fair I was referencing yesterday.
In support of Jones I think he has been ‘brave’ with decisions in the early days. The thing is I just think he is stubborn, stubborn to the point he will keep trying the same key to open a door even when the right one is hanging on the peg next to him.

He is even happy to tell us that, yes, the results might not reflect it but we are doing good things and heading in the right direction.

[Oakboy]

Felt for Freeman. Early kicks were poor, to say the least, for him to chase. Swapping him out at half time for a scrum cap was never a solution towards changing things.

A brave coach would have gone with pulling Faz for Slade at that stage.

P/d, summing us up as led by a coach with no brave thoughts in his head and who relies on poor kicking, is OK with me.

To be fair I was referencing yesterday.
In support of Jones I think he has been ‘brave’ with decisions in the early days. The thing is I just think he is stubborn, stubborn to the point he will keep trying the same key to open a door even when the right one is hanging on the peg next to him.

He is even happy to tell us that, yes, the results might not reflect it but we are doing good things and heading in the right direction.

Today, he is quoted as saying, "It's all my fault."

I've been telling everyone that for years!!

[fivepointer]

I think Jones has used up all his credit which he built up in that opening 2 6N's wins, the 3-0 win in Australia and reaching a WC final. These werent insignificant achievements but its clear results and performances have declined pretty sharply. Can you retain the guy based on his assertion that we're heading in the right direction unless we actually see something that backs that up?

[Which Tyler]

Can you retain the guy based on his assertion that we're heading in the right direction unless we actually see something that backs that up?

The thing is - the analysis that would show anything like that is going to be the stuff he's trying to keep under wraps and away from opponents.
Sharing it with us fans would be precisely the wrong thing to do.

If it were down to me, I'd fire him' but I'd also want to see his reasons and analysis, and to compare it to what he said (in private) that he was going to do, and what we should expect 1 and 3 years ago.

IF Squidge is rought about our attacking patterns, then fair enough - and if that agrees with the things he said in advance, then even more fair enough.
IF he is trying to get us to play whilst knackered, to make decisions whilst mentally slow, in order to improve decision making under pressure and whilst knackered next year; then fair enough (but is it ethical?)

Would it be enough? Depends on whether I signed off on that plan in advance.

[fivepointer]

Can you retain the guy based on his assertion that we're heading in the right direction unless we actually see something that backs that up?

The thing is - the analysis that would show anything like that is going to be the stuff he's trying to keep under wraps and away from opponents.
Sharing it with us fans would be precisely the wrong thing to do.

If it were down to me, I'd fire him' but I'd also want to see his reasons and analysis, and to compare it to what he said (in private) that he was going to do, and what we should expect 1 and 3 years ago.

IF Squidge is rought about our attacking patterns, then fair enough - and if that agrees with the things he said in advance, then even more fair enough.
IF he is trying to get us to play whilst knackered, to make decisions whilst mentally slow, in order to improve decision making under pressure and whilst knackered next year; then fair enough (but is it ethical?)

Would it be enough? Depends on whether I signed off on that plan in advance.

I dont expect our entire playbook to be revealed but i want to see us doing stuff better on the field. I want to see us better at the set piece, more precise in our kicking, better discipline, reduce the number of missed tackles, win more turnovers, convert pressure into points more consistently, see players playing near to their potential. Its all pretty much the kind of stuff that every team should be doing.
If we're holding the odd move back until the WC, thats fair enough. But if we cant get the basics nailed down, or at least showing signs of improvement, at this stage we aint going to be challenging for the WC.

[Mellsblue]

Being utterly and historically shoite 10 months out from the World Cup is quite the plan, even if someone did sign it off. It worked for SA four years ago but only once they changed the coach…

[16th man]

The Squidge assertion about the held back moves is genuinely starting to hack me off.

Line out moves and fancy backs alignments are all well and good if you're looking to go from being a good team to a great team, but if you're getting munched in the scrum, your sub hooker throws badly 5 metres out, your selected backline offers no wide threat, you've got a horribly unbalanced back row and you're in the teens for penalties on a good day, then they're the very definition of lipstick on a pig.

The master plan in 2019 was a very effective way of beating up New Zealand, we got there to do that off qualification from an OK group and demolishing a bad Aussie pack. It then hit a brick wall in the final. His master plan in 2003 was a way of beating New Zealand, but his team were kept in the final by an atrocious reffing display and some weird England tactics. Not sure that these are the badges of honour he seams to think they are.

[Oakboy]

I think Jones has used up all his credit which he built up in that opening 2 6N's wins, the 3-0 win in Australia and reaching a WC final. These werent insignificant achievements but its clear results and performances have declined pretty sharply. Can you retain the guy based on his assertion that we're heading in the right direction unless we actually see something that backs that up?

Exactly. Jones can only expect to be judged on results. One draw and two defeats in three top-rank AI matches is not good enough on the back of a poor 6N. Any RFU people charged with retaining/dumping him will hardly hold the win against Japan as a huge deposit in the credit column. They'd need to be mega-optimistic to rely on the summer tour to Australia as a significant form guide. There is simply very little to cling to at this point.

[Insouciant]

There's a lot of stuff being done wrong that could easily be avoided. One of the biggest basic errors is the consistent selection of Jonny Hill. No doubt Jones will stick him with into the 6 nations if he's still the boss.

We got thumped yesterday physically and psychologically too. Mako got killed in the scrum, how we got that first scrum penalty I don't know? I could see Rassie switching laptop to make a video as it happened SA have had the wood on us for years now, they are a great side but we didn't do ourselves a lot of favours yesterday. I didn't expect us to win, although I did expect us to maybe/hopefully show something. We didn't even get the opportunities, we just didn't click at all. SA were the better side by a mile, we got monstered in the scrum and I don't remember us doing much with ball in hand.

I genuinely think we were lucky they got a red card (not because it wasn't a red, it was) but because they'd have completely destroyed us in the last ten. They'd have hit 40 points no problem. We could barely breakdown 14 of them.

It's possibly not as bad as the Robinson, Ashton, Johnson days, but that's damning with faint praise. Are we 5 from 12 this year? Yeesh.

[Scrumhead]

The Robinson, Ashton and Johnson days were mostly rubbish, but I think it’s important to call out that the player pool was nowhere near as strong as what Eddie has to work with and in hindsight, expectations were probably higher than they ought to have been. I’d say the same for Lancaster too, albeit to a lesser extent.

Eddie has had the best resources at his disposal of any England coach in my memory and he’s failed. It’s as simple as that.

[FKAS]

The Robinson, Ashton and Johnson days were mostly rubbish, but I think it’s important to call out that the player pool was nowhere near as strong as what Eddie has to work with and in hindsight, expectations were probably higher than they ought to have been. I’d say the same for Lancaster too, albeit to a lesser extent.

Eddie has had the best resources at his disposal of any England coach in my memory and he’s failed. It’s as simple as that.

I don't quite agree with that. Post 2019 Eddie hasn't had the coaches he wants. The RFU have refused to pay compensation so that he can get the Prem coaches he wants. Before 2019 he was able to pick up Borthwick from Bristol and Gustard from Sarries. Post 2019 it was well documented that he wanted Sam Vesty but instead got Simon Amor. I imagine his selection of out of work league coaches is also down to the RFU not being willing to bring in his preferred contracted options.

Lancaster got to pick his coaching staff, had a good squad and completely stuffed it at a home world cup. He gets no sympathy from me whatsoever. He was considerably worse than Eddie.

[Spiffy]

What was the thinking that brought Nowell onto the pitch at half-time? Was Freeman struggling more than my eyes told me?

Freeman bumbled a high ball between him and Steward. Can barely remember him being involved other than that, and not sure who’s fault that would be.

Sacrificial lamb? There was some talk of an HIA but I didn’t catch whether that was the actual reason or not. Rushing a young player back in after injury to then do that doesn’t seem ideal. I’m sure Boyd will be thrilled.

At least Nowell made a break or two, that should get him another dozen caps or so. I was impressed by his initial speed after breaking through and he still got run down easily. Has he got the opposite of what they call deceptive pace?

Nowell got a break down the right and suddenly the pitch opened up in front of him. A good international wing with proper gas would have run in the score. (compare with Arendse's classic try down the same touchline.) Jack is an honest workhorse and a tough nut who will always give 100%, and you can see why Jones likes him. But England has better wings.

[Scrumhead]

The Robinson, Ashton and Johnson days were mostly rubbish, but I think it’s important to call out that the player pool was nowhere near as strong as what Eddie has to work with and in hindsight, expectations were probably higher than they ought to have been. I’d say the same for Lancaster too, albeit to a lesser extent.

Eddie has had the best resources at his disposal of any England coach in my memory and he’s failed. It’s as simple as that.

I don't quite agree with that. Post 2019 Eddie hasn't had the coaches he wants. The RFU have refused to pay compensation so that he can get the Prem coaches he wants. Before 2019 he was able to pick up Borthwick from Bristol and Gustard from Sarries. Post 2019 it was well documented that he wanted Sam Vesty but instead got Simon Amor. I imagine his selection of out of work league coaches is also down to the RFU not being willing to bring in his preferred contracted options.

Lancaster got to pick his coaching staff, had a good squad and completely stuffed it at a home world cup. He gets no sympathy from me whatsoever. He was considerably worse than Eddie.

The first paragraph of that is fair.

Re. Lancaster, my main point was that the squad he had available was nowhere near as talented as what we have today. You are 100% correct on his coaching staff though - two of which seem to be doing a fine job with Ireland.

[Puja]

The Robinson, Ashton and Johnson days were mostly rubbish, but I think it’s important to call out that the player pool was nowhere near as strong as what Eddie has to work with and in hindsight, expectations were probably higher than they ought to have been. I’d say the same for Lancaster too, albeit to a lesser extent.

Eddie has had the best resources at his disposal of any England coach in my memory and he’s failed. It’s as simple as that.

I don't quite agree with that. Post 2019 Eddie hasn't had the coaches he wants. The RFU have refused to pay compensation so that he can get the Prem coaches he wants. Before 2019 he was able to pick up Borthwick from Bristol and Gustard from Sarries. Post 2019 it was well documented that he wanted Sam Vesty but instead got Simon Amor. I imagine his selection of out of work league coaches is also down to the RFU not being willing to bring in his preferred contracted options.

Lancaster got to pick his coaching staff, had a good squad and completely stuffed it at a home world cup. He gets no sympathy from me whatsoever. He was considerably worse than Eddie.

On the other hand, if Eddie wasn't consistently such an incredible dick to his coaching staff, he might still have some of them on board and not need to be going back to the RFU every six months with, "I broke another assistant, will you buy me a new one?"

Puja

[FKAS]

There's no way this squad should have gone out at the group stage. Looking at the squad you'd say that there's a better collection of locks, 9s and 10s then we have currently. Arguments could be made for the other areas as well. Far from weak or deserving of commiserations.

England 2015 Rugby World Cup squad
Props:
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 32 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 22 caps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)

Hookers:
Jamie George (Saracens, 1 cap)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)

Second rows:
George Kruis (Saracens, 8 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 23 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 39 caps)
Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)

Back rows:
James Haskell (Wasps, 60 caps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 28 caps)
Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 38 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 18 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 37 caps)

Scrum halves:
Danny Care (Harlequins, 52 caps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 22 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps)

Fly halves:
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 30 caps)
George Ford (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)

Centres:
Brad Barritt (Saracens, 22 caps)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)

Back three:
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 38 caps)
Alex Goode (Saracens, 18 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 15 caps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)