Jones gone (Now 100% confirmed)

[Banquo]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... oach-jones

So. They didn’t talk to the players?

What a mess.

As an aside; Courtney Lewes on dementia, he’s got past with putting his foot in it politically. Now he’s spouting nonsense about this…

Just looking more and more like it was a snap decision by Sweeney to chuck Jones under tbe bus to take the pressure off his own job.

Puja

Not sure why you would consult the players tbh; frankly even Jones's supporters had given up. The bad thing is not having the sucessors all lined up first.

[Puja]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... oach-jones

So. They didn’t talk to the players?

What a mess.

As an aside; Courtney Lewes on dementia, he’s got past with putting his foot in it politically. Now he’s spouting nonsense about this…

Just looking more and more like it was a snap decision by Sweeney to chuck Jones under tbe bus to take the pressure off his own job.

Puja

Not sure why you would consult the players tbh; frankly even Jones's supporters had given up. The bad thing is not having the sucessors all lined up first.

...because surely the players were the foremost experts in whether Jones did actually have credible wacky plans in place that he was saving for the RWC? Why would you not talk to them as a first port of call?

Puja

[FKAS]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... oach-jones

So. They didn’t talk to the players?

What a mess.

As an aside; Courtney Lewes on dementia, he’s got past with putting his foot in it politically. Now he’s spouting nonsense about this…

I've heard it from a pretty reliable source that Lawes wasn't exactly nice to deal with during the Covid testing. He's got some views I think he's described as "traditional", which I enterpreted as leaning towards the right, so he might challenge conventional medical wisdom. As long as it's only his own health then so be it.

I guessed the RFU would talk to the players they wanted to in order to get the outcome they desired. If you want him to remain then you canvass the senior leadership team, if you want him gone then talk to the fringe players he's capped and dropped.

[FKAS]

Just looking more and more like it was a snap decision by Sweeney to chuck Jones under tbe bus to take the pressure off his own job.

Puja

Not sure why you would consult the players tbh; frankly even Jones's supporters had given up. The bad thing is not having the sucessors all lined up first.

...because surely the players were the foremost experts in whether Jones did actually have credible wacky plans in place that he was saving for the RWC? Why would you not talk to them as a first port of call?

Puja

Agreed. Also the media has levelled multiple accusations around his conduct off the field with relentless training and reducing players to tears. You'd want to find out if that was actually true or not.

[Banquo]

Just looking more and more like it was a snap decision by Sweeney to chuck Jones under tbe bus to take the pressure off his own job.

Puja

Not sure why you would consult the players tbh; frankly even Jones's supporters had given up. The bad thing is not having the sucessors all lined up first.

...because surely the players were the foremost experts in whether Jones did actually have credible wacky plans in place that he was saving for the RWC? Why would you not talk to them as a first port of call?

Puja

Because they'd already made up their minds on results and performance. You don't necessarily get an objective point of view, nor could you do it in a way that doesn't scare the horses as it were.

[Banquo]

Not sure why you would consult the players tbh; frankly even Jones's supporters had given up. The bad thing is not having the sucessors all lined up first.

...because surely the players were the foremost experts in whether Jones did actually have credible wacky plans in place that he was saving for the RWC? Why would you not talk to them as a first port of call?

Puja

Agreed. Also the media has levelled multiple accusations around his conduct off the field with relentless training and reducing players to tears. You'd want to find out if that was actually true or not.

I don't think how the players were treated was that much of a factor when the review was done- performance of players and results kinda spoke for themselves.

[Oakboy]

Dumping Jones was a simple case of looking in the scorebook. I'd prefer RFU representatives to canvas players' opinion on his successor, not because they should have major influence on the decision, but to have maximum possible information in the mix. In particular, they should want to hear about similarities and differences in rugby terms between Jones and Borthwick.

[p/d]

No reason to canvas the players. It’s a business at the end of the day, and they will play for whoever is in charge if it doesn’t compromise the financial reward.

What we see with our eyes, results and what that holds for the future is all that matters. He had to go

[twitchy]

[FKAS]

Charlie Morgan does make a good point. Kevin Sinfield is the inspirational type of leader that people will follow. Borthwick is a leader by example so having that vocal foil makes for a good partnership. I remember Burns talking about how everyone was telling him to focus or relax at half time in the Prem Final which was not that helpful but Sinfield just calmly told him "your boot will win this game". It's just what Burns needed to hear and just gave him the focus to keep the scoreboard ticking.

He's also done plenty of work on the skills coaching side of things with the 10 and 12s. Something England might benefit from.

Tough for Tigers, I was hoping Sinfield would get the head coach role but we'll see.

[Banquo]

Charlie Morgan does make a good point. Kevin Sinfield is the inspirational type of leader that people will follow. Borthwick is a leader by example so having that vocal foil makes for a good partnership. I remember Burns talking about how everyone was telling him to focus or relax at half time in the Prem Final which was not that helpful but Sinfield just calmly told him "your boot will win this game". It's just what Burns needed to hear and just gave him the focus to keep the scoreboard ticking.

He's also done plenty of work on the skills coaching side of things with the 10 and 12s. Something England might benefit from.

Tough for Tigers, I was hoping Sinfield would get the head coach role but we'll see.

I'm favouring a straight swap with Cockers and Dean Richards returning

[FKAS]

Charlie Morgan does make a good point. Kevin Sinfield is the inspirational type of leader that people will follow. Borthwick is a leader by example so having that vocal foil makes for a good partnership. I remember Burns talking about how everyone was telling him to focus or relax at half time in the Prem Final which was not that helpful but Sinfield just calmly told him "your boot will win this game". It's just what Burns needed to hear and just gave him the focus to keep the scoreboard ticking.

He's also done plenty of work on the skills coaching side of things with the 10 and 12s. Something England might benefit from.

Tough for Tigers, I was hoping Sinfield would get the head coach role but we'll see.

I'm favouring a straight swap with Cockers and Dean Richards returning

You can fook right off.

I'm hoping Tigers have learned that hiring the best former Tigers option isn't the same as hiring the best option. Pinchen seems sharper than to go back to Cockerill and Richards I don't think would ever come back anyway.

I was hoping for Sinfield or if not then someone like McFarland, Dobson or MacDonald. A coach that brings a tough forward back with a good attacking style. The forward pack (and a disciplined one at that) is already in situ so there's a great platform to work from.

[Banquo]

Charlie Morgan does make a good point. Kevin Sinfield is the inspirational type of leader that people will follow. Borthwick is a leader by example so having that vocal foil makes for a good partnership. I remember Burns talking about how everyone was telling him to focus or relax at half time in the Prem Final which was not that helpful but Sinfield just calmly told him "your boot will win this game". It's just what Burns needed to hear and just gave him the focus to keep the scoreboard ticking.

He's also done plenty of work on the skills coaching side of things with the 10 and 12s. Something England might benefit from.

Tough for Tigers, I was hoping Sinfield would get the head coach role but we'll see.

I'm favouring a straight swap with Cockers and Dean Richards returning

You can fook right off.

I'm hoping Tigers have learned that hiring the best former Tigers option isn't the same as hiring the best option. Pinchen seems sharper than to go back to Cockerill and Richards I don't think would ever come back anyway.

I was hoping for Sinfield or if not then someone like McFarland, Dobson or MacDonald. A coach that brings a tough forward back with a good attacking style. The forward pack (and a disciplined one at that) is already in situ so there's a great platform to work from.

will be a big problem to get anyone good mid season as england should have realised

[FKAS]

I'm favouring a straight swap with Cockers and Dean Richards returning

You can fook right off.

I'm hoping Tigers have learned that hiring the best former Tigers option isn't the same as hiring the best option. Pinchen seems sharper than to go back to Cockerill and Richards I don't think would ever come back anyway.

I was hoping for Sinfield or if not then someone like McFarland, Dobson or MacDonald. A coach that brings a tough forward back with a good attacking style. The forward pack (and a disciplined one at that) is already in situ so there's a great platform to work from.

will be a big problem to get anyone good mid season as england should have realised

Very much so. At least we'll have some cash to try and negotiate with. The Stormers have had financial issues so John Dobson could become a viable option.

[FKAS]

Borthwick and Sinfield confirmed.

Wigglesworth as interim head coach at Tigers.

[Banquo]

does he start immediately?

[Oakboy]

does he start immediately?

BBC site does not say when but reports a 5 year contract.

[Banquo]

does he start immediately?

BBC site does not say when but reports a 5 year contract.

I hope they have some sensible performance clauses.

[Mellsblue]

does he start immediately?

BBC site does not say when but reports a 5 year contract.

I hope they have some sensible performance clauses.

One book a year, one controversial statement a quarter and one ‘greatest team that ever played’ a millennia.

[Banquo]

looks like they havent sorted the rest of his staff

[Which Tyler]

I hope they have some sensible performance clauses.

I certainly think that 2 successive years of <50% win ratio would be a viable trigger, given how often that's happened*. 1 year at <50% would be too stringent for any coach to actually sign.


*Twice ever for as far back as I've looked, 1984/5 and 2021/2, though Robinson and Johnson both got damned close - Hmmm, actually, make it a <50% win ratio over a rolling 24 month period - which would have seen both of those 2, and Martin Green, removed from the post when they needed to be (1 window early for Green. 1 window early for Robbo. 1 year early for Jonno. When he was for Eddie.)

[Margin_Walker]

looks like they havent sorted the rest of his staff

Not a huge drama, given the pace at which this has happened. Assume it will all be sorted in Jan before the first 6N training camp

[Banquo]

looks like they havent sorted the rest of his staff

Not a huge drama, given the pace at which this has happened. Assume it will all be sorted in Jan before the first 6N training camp

ya'd hope so. I'd hope the approprate soundings have happened, because the planning for the training camps will be a big job and the coaches need to be aligned.When is it?

[Margin_Walker]

looks like they havent sorted the rest of his staff

Not a huge drama, given the pace at which this has happened. Assume it will all be sorted in Jan before the first 6N training camp

ya'd hope so. I'd hope the approprate soundings have happened, because the planning for the training camps will be a big job and the coaches need to be aligned.When is it?

Not sure. First fixture on 4 Feb, so potentially week of the 23rd Jan at a complete guess. Wouldn't be surprised if one of the current lot is kept on for some level of continuity.

[p/d]

Borthwick and Sinfield confirmed.

Wigglesworth as interim head coach at Tigers.

Phew. England are already in a better place!!


as for 'Tigers'.....