Jones gone (Now 100% confirmed)

[Mellsblue]

For clarity, Mells is on the windup, as Walter's name has been mentioned a few times in this thread.

Puja

How very dare you. I take this forum incredibly seriously and would never make a childish post in the hope of a dopamine rush by eliciting a thumbs up via a poor, often repeated, joke.
As for making a pun, that is the pass-time of the fool.

The dopamine hit is out of control.

[Banquo]

How very dare you. I take this forum incredibly seriously and would never make a childish post in the hope of a dopamine rush by eliciting a thumbs up via a poor, often repeated, joke.
As for making a pun, that is the pass-time of the fool.

The dopamine hit is out of control.

Which dope do you mean?

[FKAS]

Yeah no. Scarlets, Taranaki, Brumbies, Munster, SA, Tigers. Bloke has been around learning his stuff. He's also apparently a bit of a nutter, turned up for his first day at Tigers with his world cup winner's medal, asked Steve and the England lads if they wanted to get a look at one first hand.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... elentless/

For clarity, Mells is on the windup, as Walter's name has been mentioned a few times in this thread.

Puja

It was more the Twitchy joke about just needing to make the Boks big (via steroids) ensure winning. He's cleverer than the average S&C coach.

[Banquo]

Yeah no. Scarlets, Taranaki, Brumbies, Munster, SA, Tigers. Bloke has been around learning his stuff. He's also apparently a bit of a nutter, turned up for his first day at Tigers with his world cup winner's medal, asked Steve and the England lads if they wanted to get a look at one first hand.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... elentless/

For clarity, Mells is on the windup, as Walter's name has been mentioned a few times in this thread.

Puja

It was more the Twitchy joke about just needing to make the Boks big (via steroids) ensure winning. He's cleverer than the average S&C coach.

Apparently he helped SA win the World Cup.

[Mellsblue]

I see Borthwick’s first act in post is to demand RICH LANE!!! starts for Bristol.

[Timbo]

Matt Proudfoot has left the England set up.

[Banquo]

Matt Proudfoot has left the England set up.

not surprising tbh, but not sure why he was less impactful for England than SA.

[FKAS]

Matt Proudfoot has left the England set up.

not surprising tbh, but not sure why he was less impactful for England than SA.

He was just the scrum coach at SA but forwards coach with England. Maybe it's easy to make the massive Bok forward pack and the unparalleled number of quality props look good come scrum time. To get the England pack in a period of flux having lost their best set piece lock to perform more of an ask.

[Banquo]

Matt Proudfoot has left the England set up.

not surprising tbh, but not sure why he was less impactful for England than SA.

He was just the scrum coach at SA but forwards coach with England. Maybe it's easy to make the massive Bok forward pack and the unparalleled number of quality props look good come scrum time. To get the England pack in a period of flux having lost their best set piece lock to perform more of an ask.

too much of an ask, clearly. What flux btw?

[FKAS]

not surprising tbh, but not sure why he was less impactful for England than SA.

He was just the scrum coach at SA but forwards coach with England. Maybe it's easy to make the massive Bok forward pack and the unparalleled number of quality props look good come scrum time. To get the England pack in a period of flux having lost their best set piece lock to perform more of an ask.

too much of an ask, clearly. What flux btw?

I was thinking of the period of Eddie trying to find his new second row partnership where Ewels, Hill, Chessum and probably another I've forgotten were brought in as potential new partners for Itoje. The Vunipolas were dropped and then recalled. Marler was a staple and then out in the cold, Stuart and Heyes were in for Cole. Kamikaze Kids flanker selection was out and three locks were in.

Quite a rebuild job for a new forwards coach whilst the attack was being binned and reborn.

[Banquo]

He was just the scrum coach at SA but forwards coach with England. Maybe it's easy to make the massive Bok forward pack and the unparalleled number of quality props look good come scrum time. To get the England pack in a period of flux having lost their best set piece lock to perform more of an ask.

too much of an ask, clearly. What flux btw?

I was thinking of the period of Eddie trying to find his new second row partnership where Ewels, Hill, Chessum and probably another I've forgotten were brought in as potential new partners for Itoje. The Vunipolas were dropped and then recalled. Marler was a staple and then out in the cold, Stuart and Heyes were in for Cole. Kamikaze Kids flanker selection was out and three locks were in.

Quite a rebuild job for a new forwards coach whilst the attack was being binned and reborn.

hmm, same core though at the end. Whatever, there's a fair few decent forwards been knocking about and he's failed to get the best of them. Hence unsurprised that Stevie B has binned him.

[FKAS]

too much of an ask, clearly. What flux btw?

I was thinking of the period of Eddie trying to find his new second row partnership where Ewels, Hill, Chessum and probably another I've forgotten were brought in as potential new partners for Itoje. The Vunipolas were dropped and then recalled. Marler was a staple and then out in the cold, Stuart and Heyes were in for Cole. Kamikaze Kids flanker selection was out and three locks were in.

Quite a rebuild job for a new forwards coach whilst the attack was being binned and reborn.

hmm, same core though at the end. Whatever, there's a fair few decent forwards been knocking about and he's failed to get the best of them. Hence unsurprised that Stevie B has binned him.

Yeah don't think anyone will be surprised with Borthwick binning Proudfoot. Cockers can do the same job but knows the league better though I'd have thought he'd probably want a head coach role post world cup.

[Mr Mwenda]

Proudfoot might even have been part of the reason for the changes!

[Puja]

Proudfoot might even have been part of the reason for the changes!

I was thinking that earlier in the thread - we all tend to blame Eddie's PSDT PTSD for the switch to three locks and 6:2 benches, but it does make an awful lot of sense that it was at least partly Proudfoot's influence.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Proudfoot might even have been part of the reason for the changes!

I was thinking that earlier in the thread - we all tend to blame Eddie's PSDT PTSD for the switch to three locks and 6:2 benches, but it does make an awful lot of sense that it was at least partly Proudfoot's influence.

Puja

Theoretically, it would make sense but I'm not convinced that Jones ever listened to anybody else on selection issues or playing strategy. I think failure to delegate is always the worst management failing on the simple grounds that resources are not maximised. The regular turnover in coaching staff probably indicates that.

[FKAS]

Matt Proudfoot, Brett Hodgson and the field hockey guy that was hired as the training coordinator have confirmed as gone.

[fivepointer]

Proudfoot is the highest-profile casualty and has already found new employment at Stellenbosch University in South Africa. Hodgson’s tenure as defence coach was one of the shortest in history after only assuming the role after Anthony Seibold left following the autumn campaign. His departure was signalled when the Rugby Football Union confirmed the arrival of Kevin Sinfield before Christmas. Danny Kerry’s tenure is only marginally longer as Jones’s training coordinator.

Thats quite a clear out. Gleason and Cockers remain. But for how long?

[Oakboy]

Borthwick must be in a good position to take the best of Jones's legacy and reject the worst having worked closely with him. I did not expect the RFU to fund such radical change in relatively difficult financial times. The process (and its backing) so far is pretty indicative of how far things must have declined.

[16th man]

Really does look like the backroom coaches situation was an ongoing afterthought / patch and cover situation, rather than a coherent team being built. If you really thought you were bringing in the best available at the time, rather than just getting a warm body in, then you'd be expecting guys who'd been in role for a couple of months to be given a chance, rather than just turfed out.

[Which Tyler]

If you really thought you were bringing in the best available at the time, rather than just getting a warm body in, then you'd be expecting guys who'd been in role for a couple of months to be given a chance, rather than just turfed out.

Why?

Head Coach should get his own choice of staff.
Full Stop.

New Head Coach = new own choice of staff.

I'd be far more upset (and I suspect, RR as a whole would be right with me) if we found out that the RFU were appointing staff for Eddie, or Borthwick, that Eddie, or Borthwick, didn't want.
I could understand for Borthers due to financial constraints, but I'm not upset that they're allowing him his own choice - TBH, I can't really see how anyone would be (other than the people let go, and their dependants)

[16th man]

If you really thought you were bringing in the best available at the time, rather than just getting a warm body in, then you'd be expecting guys who'd been in role for a couple of months to be given a chance, rather than just turfed out.

Why?

Head Coach should get his own choice of staff.
Full Stop.

New Head Coach = new own choice of staff.

I'd be far more upset (and I suspect, RR as a whole would be right with me) if we found out that the RFU were appointing staff for Eddie, or Borthwick, that Eddie, or Borthwick, didn't want.
I could understand for Borthers due to financial constraints, but I'm not upset that they're allowing him his own choice - TBH, I can't really see how anyone would be (other than the people let go, and their dependants)

Because, if the bloke you've brought in was the best available, then you'd hope the new head coach would recognise that.

I think new head coach = a whole new staff regardless of what was already in place is a bit simplistic.

Would we all be happy if it turned out a really good coach, ideally suited to the job, selected by a rigorous process, got given tgo hoick, and replaced with a lesser option, simply as the latter was mates with the new guy?

[FKAS]

There were rumours the RFU didn't want to bankroll Eddie's coaching rebuild and only allowed Proudfoot in because Tigers had agreed a deal with Borthwick. Note that the RFU were difficult as possible with Tigers at the time (grumble, grumble).

I suspect Hodgson and Kelly/Kerry (whatever his name is) both had clauses in their contracts which allowed reduce term termination within a probationary period so could be released cheaply. I had previously wondered whether Proudfoot was looking to move on given England bringing in Cockerill. Perhaps he signalled his intentions previously and as he's walked into a new job already there might be something in that. Cockers joined a year ago which would be a significant notice period though.

I think Borthwick will retain those he needs. He must have been adamant about getting Sinfield in, which pushed out Hodgson. No need for two forwards coaches and Borthwick either. The hockey guy sounds like a bit of an Eddie 1%er type experiment. If you're fresh through the door of a struggling team you probably want to simplify first.

[Which Tyler]

Because, if the bloke you've brought in was the best available, then you'd hope the new head coach would recognise that.

I think new head coach = a whole new staff regardless of what was already in place is a bit simplistic.

Would we all be happy if it turned out a really good coach, ideally suited to the job, selected by a rigorous process, got given tgo hoick, and replaced with a lesser option, simply as the latter was mates with the new guy?

Best for what? best as in the best in the world, no debate (in which case, none of the staff we've let go come close)? best for enacting the game-plan of someone who's no longer there? best as a cog in the machine that is a coaching team that has been dismantled?

I think that "best is best, there's a simple ladder of talent" is a bit simplistic*.

Would we all be happy if it turned out a really good coach, ideally suited to the job, selected by a rigorous process, got overlooked because we stuck with a lesser option, simply because the latter was mates with the old guy?




* FTR, I didn't say "new head coach = a whole new staff", I said "new head coach should get his own choice of staff" if that means keeping someone, then that's fine, if it means replacing them, then that's also fine.
A head coach should stand or fall based on their decisions, not decision made by other people.

[Puja]

Eddie's not even been hired by Rugby Australia yet and already there are assistant coaches walking, wanting to spend more time with their families: https://rugby365.com/countries/australi ... wallabies/

On a serious note, that's a big blow for Australia to lose Wisemantel. When I saw the headline, I was hoping it was him agreeing to go back to work with Borthwick again, but the reasons given nix that idea. Odd timing, but I hope he's happy with whatever he plans to do next.

Puja

[FKAS]

Eddie's not even been hired by Rugby Australia yet and already there are assistant coaches walking, wanting to spend more time with their families: https://rugby365.com/countries/australi ... wallabies/

On a serious note, that's a big blow for Australia to lose Wisemantel. When I saw the headline, I was hoping it was him agreeing to go back to work with Borthwick again, but the reasons given nix that idea. Odd timing, but I hope he's happy with whatever he plans to do next.

Puja

Good man Scott, spend 7 months with the family and then come back to the UK for the Tigers job.