Jones gone (Now 100% confirmed)

[Timbo]

If they get Ian Peel in too then this is a far better coaching team than the one Eddie had assembled.

[Banquo]

If they get Ian Peel in too then this is a far better coaching team than the one Eddie had assembled.

Maybe, but not much intl coaching experience, nor much time (esp with temp staff)..... and sadly its a low bar.

[Danno]

The sheer optimism in the last few posts is at best disappointing

[Banquo]

The sheer optimism in the last few posts is at best disappointing

I hope it goes well, and agree that the finalised coaching team looks less Frankenstein's monster than Eddie's last lineup.....but the time factor to the RWC and the part time style of appointments have to be a little concerning.

[Oakboy]

If they get Ian Peel in too then this is a far better coaching team than the one Eddie had assembled.

Maybe, but not much intl coaching experience, nor much time (esp with temp staff)..... and sadly its a low bar.

Quite. The lowest bar is improving on the last two sets of 6N match results. I wonder what are the odds against an England GS. They could catch a few teams out with a new head coach 'bounce-back'. It's not so far into extraordinary IF you believe the England squad's overall talent is up with or close to France and Ireland. New coaching ideas (with all players on board), the team being more than the sum of its parts, all-round self-belief and a good start . . . .

I would not have chosen a single one of the new coaches but I like the way things are shaping up under Borthwick - perhaps/probably meaning the RFU have got it right. It's refreshing to be optimistic for the first time for 3, 7, 19 years (take your pick).

[Banquo]

If they get Ian Peel in too then this is a far better coaching team than the one Eddie had assembled.

Maybe, but not much intl coaching experience, nor much time (esp with temp staff)..... and sadly its a low bar.

Quite. The lowest bar is improving on the last two sets of 6N match results. I wonder what are the odds against an England GS. They could catch a few teams out with a new head coach 'bounce-back'. It's not so far into extraordinary IF you believe the England squad's overall talent is up with or close to France and Ireland. New coaching ideas (with all players on board), the team being more than the sum of its parts, all-round self-belief and a good start . . . .

I would not have chosen a single one of the new coaches but I like the way things are shaping up under Borthwick - perhaps/probably meaning the RFU have got it right. It's refreshing to be optimistic for the first time for 3, 7, 19 years (take your pick).

I meant a low bar in terms of coaching staff membership tbh.

What do you like about how its shaping up under Borthwick?

[Oakboy]

Maybe, but not much intl coaching experience, nor much time (esp with temp staff)..... and sadly its a low bar.

Quite. The lowest bar is improving on the last two sets of 6N match results. I wonder what are the odds against an England GS. They could catch a few teams out with a new head coach 'bounce-back'. It's not so far into extraordinary IF you believe the England squad's overall talent is up with or close to France and Ireland. New coaching ideas (with all players on board), the team being more than the sum of its parts, all-round self-belief and a good start . . . .

I would not have chosen a single one of the new coaches but I like the way things are shaping up under Borthwick - perhaps/probably meaning the RFU have got it right. It's refreshing to be optimistic for the first time for 3, 7, 19 years (take your pick).

I meant a low bar in terms of coaching staff membership tbh.

What do you like about how its shaping up under Borthwick?

I like his low-key public image and the fact that he is already seen discussing things with assistant coaches (just what I've seen on BT Sport when cameras are on him). I never remember seeing Jones do that. I like the way he has gone about coaching appointments and his public statements seem straightforward (i.e. not smart-ass - it is impossible NOT to compare him with his predecessor). Now, that is all just a prejudiced impression, I accept. However, I think his approach/style is FAR more likely to gel with assistant coaches and players. You know better than me that making a team more than the sum of its parts does not just happen. IF the entire training camp buys into Borthwick's methods that will be improvement No 1 towards achieving it, I'd suggest.

My main reservation was that he has worked closely with Jones in the past. However, I'm becoming convinced that he is his own man.

In terms of the 'height of the bar' (I recognise that you were using the word in a different context), 'impossible to do worse' might be a reasonable assessment.

[p/d]

Just the fact he isn’t Jones means there is plenty to like about Big Stevie

[Mellsblue]

I would not have chosen a single one of the new coaches

Who would you have chosen?

[Oakboy]

I would not have chosen a single one of the new coaches

Who would you have chosen?

No idea, but I like the number of interviews that Redman did and the fact that all club DORs were spoken to. Had I received all that associated info, I might well have chosen Borthwick (and the other coaches). It wasn't so much that I had someone else in mind that put me off Borthwick, it was the fear of his methods being similar to Jones's. One essential requirement in the mix, IMO, is a bit of flair. Now, I don't associate that with Borthwick BUT his selection of Evans must indicate that he sees some sort of attacking smartness as essential. So far, starting from not wanting Borthwick, I just feel that there is nothing with which to find fault.

I've always harped on about 'best possible' performances. If we ain't good enough, tough, and losing can be swallowed. Losing when our performance level is consistently sub-par is the crunch. That is what we have seen for (at least) three years. I doubt we will get that under Borthwick.

[Puja]

Quite. The lowest bar is improving on the last two sets of 6N match results. I wonder what are the odds against an England GS. They could catch a few teams out with a new head coach 'bounce-back'. It's not so far into extraordinary IF you believe the England squad's overall talent is up with or close to France and Ireland. New coaching ideas (with all players on board), the team being more than the sum of its parts, all-round self-belief and a good start . . . .

I would not have chosen a single one of the new coaches but I like the way things are shaping up under Borthwick - perhaps/probably meaning the RFU have got it right. It's refreshing to be optimistic for the first time for 3, 7, 19 years (take your pick).

I meant a low bar in terms of coaching staff membership tbh.

What do you like about how its shaping up under Borthwick?

I like his low-key public image and the fact that he is already seen discussing things with assistant coaches (just what I've seen on BT Sport when cameras are on him). I never remember seeing Jones do that. I like the way he has gone about coaching appointments and his public statements seem straightforward (i.e. not smart-ass - it is impossible NOT to compare him with his predecessor). Now, that is all just a prejudiced impression, I accept. However, I think his approach/style is FAR more likely to gel with assistant coaches and players. You know better than me that making a team more than the sum of its parts does not just happen. IF the entire training camp buys into Borthwick's methods that will be improvement No 1 towards achieving it, I'd suggest.

My main reservation was that he has worked closely with Jones in the past. However, I'm becoming convinced that he is his own man.

In terms of the 'height of the bar' (I recognise that you were using the word in a different context), 'impossible to do worse' might be a reasonable assessment.

I like that his coaching team is actually people who have been doing the job in the Prem, rather than "random league player from Australia who's never so much as touched a union ball."

Actually, that was one thing which did massively piss me off about Eddie - his thinly veiled sneer and overall disdain for this country and our rugby. He would go to Prem games and look miserable about being there, turtled up in a thousand layers and glaring balefully at the field, then talk about how Prem form didn't mean anything because it was too low level, and that performances for clubs were less important than him needing to find players with the right character because we were all such pampered jessies.

When he first joined, I was quite excited to have a foreign pair of eyes able to bring a fresh perspective and meld what was good about us with the best of Australian innovation. Instead, it felt like he pretty much hated everything from the start and that hatred grew the longer he was here.

I'm keen to have a coach that's actually excited about doing the best he can with England and English players, as the experience I've felt from Eddie has increasingly been that he was doing the best he could despite it being England.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I would not have chosen a single one of the new coaches

Who would you have chosen?

No idea, but I like the number of interviews that Redman did and the fact that all club DORs were spoken to. Had I received all that associated info,

I can’t see a logical train of thought.
You definitely wouldn’t have picked these coaches but you don’t know who you would’ve picked but you might’ve picked these coaches if you had all the info.

[Oakboy]

Who would you have chosen?

No idea, but I like the number of interviews that Redman did and the fact that all club DORs were spoken to. Had I received all that associated info,

I can’t see a logical train of thought.
You definitely wouldn’t have picked these coaches but you don’t know who you would’ve picked but you might’ve picked these coaches if you had all the info.

It's probably just that I am incompetent at explanation. Based on little knowledge I did not fancy Borthwick because of his previous association with Jones. None of the assistants he has appointed were mentioned before he was appointed so none entered my thoughts. Thus, none of them were my choice (just as none were NOT my choice).

In many debates in the past, when challenged by Scrumhead and others, I always said I had no candidates in mind but would have carried out a process along the lines of Armfield's brief in choosing Venables. The RFU seems to have carried out a comprehensive process along similar lines. Armed with the full info from the process, those who made the decision in Borthwick's favour have probably got it right and I'm prepared to be optimistic.

[p/d]

I'm keen to have a coach that's actually excited about doing the best he can with England and English players,

Puja

bingo!!!

[Timbo]

Listening to Nick Evans on BT today during the game it sounded very probable that he’ll be moving over to England full time at some stage. As Puja said, try before you buy for both parties.

My money would be on him finishing the season with Quins and then becoming Englands full time attack coach.

[Mellsblue]

I don’t see the point in it. Just keep Gleeson if Evans is only a rental. Now, if it’s a try before you buy…

Puja’s changed enough without giving him credit for other’s work

[FKAS]

Listening to Nick Evans on BT today during the game it sounded very probable that he’ll be moving over to England full time at some stage. As Puja said, try before you buy for both parties.

My money would be on him finishing the season with Quins and then becoming Englands full time attack coach.

Seems increasingly likely. Rumours that Tigers will announce a coaching addition this week (and don't we fecking need it), if it's Gleeson that would answer some questions.

[Timbo]

I don’t see the point in it. Just keep Gleeson if Evans is only a rental. Now, if it’s a try before you buy…

Puja’s changed enough without giving him credit for other’s work

Pologies

[Mellsblue]

I don’t see the point in it. Just keep Gleeson if Evans is only a rental. Now, if it’s a try before you buy…

Puja’s changed enough without giving him credit for other’s work

Pologies

Cepted

[Mellsblue]

[I R Geech]

Have the RFU heard on non compete clauses or do they just like handing out money?

[Puja]

That seems harsh to me. Australia went through a ridiculous run of injuries and bad luck, while not necessarily having the strongest supply of players in the first place and still managed to beat South Africa, Argentina, England, and one stupid (player) decision away from beating the All Blacks.

Plus signing Eddie up until 2027 seems like a bad call. Morepork said it repeatedly - Eddie gets results in the short term and then it all falls apart. Is a 5 year in Eddie Jones really who they want leading them at their home RWC (AKA, the last chance to make rugby in Australia popular and solvent again)?

Mind, having said that, I might be rooting for Australia against Wales in the pool game. Not sure I'd be keen on us facing Australia in the quarters, still in their new Eddie bounce, and with him no doubt having cooked up plans specifically for the game.

Puja

[Timbo]

My first thought was, I wonder if Weismantel left because he heard Eddie was taking over

Ultimately it’s a great story & that is what sport is all about. Would be an incredible event if we faced off against them in the quarters.

[Mikey Brown]

That seems harsh to me. Australia went through a ridiculous run of injuries and bad luck, while not necessarily having the strongest supply of players in the first place and still managed to beat South Africa, Argentina, England, and one stupid (player) decision away from beating the All Blacks.

Plus signing Eddie up until 2027 seems like a bad call. Morepork said it repeatedly - Eddie gets results in the short term and then it all falls apart. Is a 5 year in Eddie Jones really who they want leading them at their home RWC (AKA, the last chance to make rugby in Australia popular and solvent again)?

Mind, having said that, I might be rooting for Australia against Wales in the pool game. Not sure I'd be keen on us facing Australia in the quarters, still in their new Eddie bounce, and with him no doubt having cooked up plans specifically for the game.

Puja

Well you said it at the time. Wisemantel scarpered before it could get too awkward. Seems very harsh on Rennie. It’s all starting to feel a bit like football.

[Puja]

My first thought was, I wonder if Weismantel left because he heard Eddie was taking over

Ultimately it’s a great story & that is what sport is all about. Would be an incredible event if we faced off against them in the quarters.

Yeah, but how insufferable would he be, first in the buildup and then just imagine it they actually won the game. I can actually picture the smirk. Not worth the risk

Puja