Borthwick Era

[Banquo]

SB has the fans and the press on his side. I was bored in a waiting room when he was announced and listened to a long set of interviews he did at the presser. He just needs to ride that wave and get everyone back in and go from there.

Both turn very quickly. But yes.

[Stom]

I don't see Earl being in the picture as a number 8 but I guess his versatility would come in to it if he's fighting for the 20 shirt. I feel like he's a better 8 than Simmonds is a flanker, if that makes sense.

I just don't get Earl. He's just a shouty player who does what existing options do worse and isn't exceptional at anything. His 'pace' is, well, not as fast as someone like Mercer, who does everything Earl does but better and without the shouty shouty big bollocks crap.

[SDHoneymonster]

pretty much what any coach would do, and indeed what Jones did, what with winning a GS at the first try Though the nearness of the RWC will be playing on Stevie wonder's mind.

Quite. As a matter of interest, how do you think Borthwick rates against his predecessor? I only ask because your posts don't suggest you are a fan.

I'm pretty neutral on Stevie B. I was surprised how well he did in his first full season with Tigers- despite his obviously good technical coaching credentials with forwards, I didn't think he had the charisma, drive or head coaching experience to deliver what was a pretty spectacular turnaround; the recent half season has been very mixed to be kind, and I would have been interested to have seen how he would have responded to this in terms of tactics, selection and recruitment-- to some extent, the tactics were rumbled and countered, though also hampered by injuries/availabilities (though this happens to all teams). So some of my reservations I had on his appointment with Tigers have been answered through performance, but others remain; he's relatively inexperienced as a head coach, let alone an international one, and I wonder how his temperament will hold up and indeed how he will front up to the press (like it or not, its a big part of the job). I do wonder how his leadership 'style' (frankly I don't know what its like behind closed doors) will land with international players, and whether he has a broader tactical ammunition and nous up his sleeve (hence being interested in what would have happened in the second half of this season with Tigers). On the plus side, I think his attention to detail and technical coaching will be very useful for a squad that lost sight of a lot of basics latterly under Eddie, and I think he will be able to positively influence and thus improve some of the forwards individual and unit performances; then translating that into broader team improvements will depend on how he and the other coaches gel and then align team objectives and tactics and take the players with him.

It'd be a big ask for en experienced intl head coach, esp so close to two big tournies- so I wish him all the best; decent guy, proper rugby bloke.

Ultimately I think my worry is that - he's an excellent, hands-on and detailed oriented coach, but maybe not suited to the head honcho role at international level, a bit like Lancaster (although at least unlike Lancaster he does have previous successes to point to, both internationally and domestically). On the flipside, with all of Japan, England and then Leicester he adapted himself to the tools he was given to work with and helped chisel all three into much better teams than they were before he arrived - that Japan pack were so fun to watch at the set piece knowing they had to be creative to get an even footing with bigger sides. The appointment of Nick Evans as attack coach for the 6N (and I suspect he will eventually join full time and it's currently a case of the RFU needing to avoid another hefty contract payout - I'd be amazed if he's not signed on for the world cup too) is also an encouraging sign for those of us who were worried he was just going to transplant the tactics he used for Leicester's title win, which he would be justified in doing as it's not as if trusting defence and pinpoint kicking hasn't proven to be a match-winning strategy at Test level either; I think he has greater ambitions, at least in the long run, for the team.

EDIT: I think he had greater ambitions for Leicester too, he just happened to have some excellent kicking half backs and that club really did need a top to bottom rebuild culturally and tactically. I also suspect Gleeson has been kept on to tap into the world cup playbook Jones was apparently building, so Evans doesn't have to build from scratch (and it would be nice if we got to see if Gleeson was actually doing anything, I do suspect he might have been hung out to dry a bit by Eddie's paranoia over revealing his hand.)

[Banquo]

Quite. As a matter of interest, how do you think Borthwick rates against his predecessor? I only ask because your posts don't suggest you are a fan.

I'm pretty neutral on Stevie B. I was surprised how well he did in his first full season with Tigers- despite his obviously good technical coaching credentials with forwards, I didn't think he had the charisma, drive or head coaching experience to deliver what was a pretty spectacular turnaround; the recent half season has been very mixed to be kind, and I would have been interested to have seen how he would have responded to this in terms of tactics, selection and recruitment-- to some extent, the tactics were rumbled and countered, though also hampered by injuries/availabilities (though this happens to all teams). So some of my reservations I had on his appointment with Tigers have been answered through performance, but others remain; he's relatively inexperienced as a head coach, let alone an international one, and I wonder how his temperament will hold up and indeed how he will front up to the press (like it or not, its a big part of the job). I do wonder how his leadership 'style' (frankly I don't know what its like behind closed doors) will land with international players, and whether he has a broader tactical ammunition and nous up his sleeve (hence being interested in what would have happened in the second half of this season with Tigers). On the plus side, I think his attention to detail and technical coaching will be very useful for a squad that lost sight of a lot of basics latterly under Eddie, and I think he will be able to positively influence and thus improve some of the forwards individual and unit performances; then translating that into broader team improvements will depend on how he and the other coaches gel and then align team objectives and tactics and take the players with him.

It'd be a big ask for en experienced intl head coach, esp so close to two big tournies- so I wish him all the best; decent guy, proper rugby bloke.

Ultimately I think my worry is that - he's an excellent, hands-on and detailed oriented coach, but maybe not suited to the head honcho role at international level, a bit like Lancaster (although at least unlike Lancaster he does have previous successes to point to, both internationally and domestically). On the flipside, with all of Japan, England and then Leicester he adapted himself to the tools he was given to work with and helped chisel all three into much better teams than they were before he arrived - that Japan pack were so fun to watch at the set piece knowing they had to be creative to get an even footing with bigger sides. The appointment of Nick Evans as attack coach for the 6N (and I suspect he will eventually join full time and it's currently a case of the RFU needing to avoid another hefty contract payout - I'd be amazed if he's not signed on for the world cup too) is also an encouraging sign for those of us who were worried he was just going to transplant the tactics he used for Leicester's title win, which he would be justified in doing as it's not as if trusting defence and pinpoint kicking hasn't proven to be a match-winning strategy at Test level either; I think he has greater ambitions, at least in the long run, for the team.

yup. My other reservation/concern - and its not his fault- is that he hasn't got enough time to be really judged on anything, even the 6N (given how far into RWC cycle other sides are), esp with a less than continuous coaching team.....but nonetheless he will be judged very quickly. Not sure about ambitions for Tigers either, as in literally no idea based on what I've seen this season.

[Oakboy]

pretty much what any coach would do, and indeed what Jones did, what with winning a GS at the first try Though the nearness of the RWC will be playing on Stevie wonder's mind.

Quite. As a matter of interest, how do you think Borthwick rates against his predecessor? I only ask because your posts don't suggest you are a fan.

I'm pretty neutral on Stevie B. I was surprised how well he did in his first full season with Tigers- despite his obviously good technical coaching credentials with forwards, I didn't think he had the charisma, drive or head coaching experience to deliver what was a pretty spectacular turnaround; the recent half season has been very mixed to be kind, and I would have been interested to have seen how he would have responded to this in terms of tactics, selection and recruitment-- to some extent, the tactics were rumbled and countered, though also hampered by injuries/availabilities (though this happens to all teams). So some of my reservations I had on his appointment with Tigers have been answered through performance, but others remain; he's relatively inexperienced as a head coach, let alone an international one, and I wonder how his temperament will hold up and indeed how he will front up to the press (like it or not, its a big part of the job). I do wonder how his leadership 'style' (frankly I don't know what its like behind closed doors) will land with international players, and whether he has a broader tactical ammunition and nous up his sleeve (hence being interested in what would have happened in the second half of this season with Tigers). On the plus side, I think his attention to detail and technical coaching will be very useful for a squad that lost sight of a lot of basics latterly under Eddie, and I think he will be able to positively influence and thus improve some of the forwards individual and unit performances; then translating that into broader team improvements will depend on how he and the other coaches gel and then align team objectives and tactics and take the players with him.

It'd be a big ask for en experienced intl head coach, esp so close to two big tournies- so I wish him all the best; decent guy, proper rugby bloke.

A good bit of depth there, thanks.

I am wrapped up in prejudices - starting from the low point of not rating Jones as a head coach and thoroughly disliking him as a man. Then, I never rated Borthwick as an international player, certainly compared with Johnson as another predecessor. I suppose it surprises me now that the RFU seem to have admitted their mistake with Jones and followed it up with a decent assessment process before appointing Borthwick. I am further surprised (to some extent) that Borthwick has started out so positively with public comment, public behaviour and coaching appointments. Trying to start with an open mind (not easy) I have not found anything with which to find fault.

The proof of the pudding is yet to come, of course. However, I'd not be surprised if much improved selection, preparation and inspiration follow. I'd go a bit further and suggest that it would be no surprise if the players respond well enough to jack up performance significantly.

[fivepointer]

Borthwick has made a confident, sure footed start. He's said all the right things, got himself out and about and has brought in a couple of good people. I've heard plenty of good things about him. He does seem to be very well regarded.
That may all fall apart when his first squad comes out next week and our favourites arent picked, but for now, he's doing just fine.
I think he's got as bit of room to work in. We dont have a bad 6N schedule (3 home games) and our WC draw is very favourable. As long as we dont collect a wooden spoon and dont get out of our WC group he should be able to ease into 2024 pretty settled.
Right now i'm pretty happy with the state of play and think Borthwick may turn out to be a good appointment.

[Banquo]

Borthwick has made a confident, sure footed start. He's said all the right things, got himself out and about and has brought in a couple of good people. I've heard plenty of good things about him. He does seem to be very well regarded.
That may all fall apart when his first squad comes out next week and our favourites arent picked, but for now, he's doing just fine.
I think he's got as bit of room to work in. We dont have a bad 6N schedule (3 home games) and our WC draw is very favourable. As long as we dont collect a wooden spoon and dont get out of our WC group he should be able to ease into 2024 pretty settled.
Right now i'm pretty happy with the state of play and think Borthwick may turn out to be a good appointment.

As you say, nothing has tripped him up yet, but he's not met an obstacle as yet

I'm less confident about the room he has to work in- he has some big conundrums to solve in selection...almost everywhere tbh...a brand new coaching team, which in itself will take time to gel. Its a mountain of work tbh, and that's before he gets into the nitty gritty technical stuff. Its effectively a much shorter pre season than you get at a club to the 6N....but I suppose that's life as an intl coach. But then I guess Jones only had a month more to settle in prior to competitive matches, and imo had a worse and more demoralised squad to work with and had a fantastic start. So huzza!

[fivepointer]

Borthwick has made a confident, sure footed start. He's said all the right things, got himself out and about and has brought in a couple of good people. I've heard plenty of good things about him. He does seem to be very well regarded.
That may all fall apart when his first squad comes out next week and our favourites arent picked, but for now, he's doing just fine.
I think he's got as bit of room to work in. We dont have a bad 6N schedule (3 home games) and our WC draw is very favourable. As long as we dont collect a wooden spoon and dont get out of our WC group he should be able to ease into 2024 pretty settled.
Right now i'm pretty happy with the state of play and think Borthwick may turn out to be a good appointment.

As you say, nothing has tripped him up yet, but he's not met an obstacle as yet

I'm less confident about the room he has to work in- he has some big conundrums to solve in selection...almost everywhere tbh...a brand new coaching team, which in itself will take time to gel. Its a mountain of work tbh, and that's before he gets into the nitty gritty technical stuff. Its effectively a much shorter pre season than you get at a club to the 6N....but I suppose that's life as an intl coach. But then I guess Jones only had a month more to settle in prior to competitive matches, and imo had a worse and more demoralised squad to work with and had a fantastic start. So huzza!

Get selection right and its plain sailing (hopefully....). As long as he's consistent and puts square pegs in square holes he's got every chance of things working out.
The first squad and first team for Scotland will tell us a lot more about where he's going.
That does make things interesting to say the least.

[Banquo]

Borthwick has made a confident, sure footed start. He's said all the right things, got himself out and about and has brought in a couple of good people. I've heard plenty of good things about him. He does seem to be very well regarded.
That may all fall apart when his first squad comes out next week and our favourites arent picked, but for now, he's doing just fine.
I think he's got as bit of room to work in. We dont have a bad 6N schedule (3 home games) and our WC draw is very favourable. As long as we dont collect a wooden spoon and dont get out of our WC group he should be able to ease into 2024 pretty settled.
Right now i'm pretty happy with the state of play and think Borthwick may turn out to be a good appointment.

As you say, nothing has tripped him up yet, but he's not met an obstacle as yet

I'm less confident about the room he has to work in- he has some big conundrums to solve in selection...almost everywhere tbh...a brand new coaching team, which in itself will take time to gel. Its a mountain of work tbh, and that's before he gets into the nitty gritty technical stuff. Its effectively a much shorter pre season than you get at a club to the 6N....but I suppose that's life as an intl coach. But then I guess Jones only had a month more to settle in prior to competitive matches, and imo had a worse and more demoralised squad to work with and had a fantastic start. So huzza!

Get selection right and its plain sailing

seriously? Even if he gets it 'right'...and most would have picked most of who Eddie picked....there's a hell of a job in getting them ready--- especially if as you possibly imply, it diverges significantly from Eddie's chosen ones. If he goes down the Eddie route there were a lot of non-selection issues; if he doesn't then you likely have new units. I don't think the major problems in Eddie's latter years were selection tbf...apart from a slavish devotion to Faz.

[fivepointer]

It was a bit tongue in cheek. He has multiple issues to deal with. None of them are easy. He's got a tough gig.

[p/d]

He is no Stuart Hooper, but he is a breath of fresh air. I have no qualms about his appointment too close to the WC, and certainly have no reason to raise concerns on his tenure that currently do not exist. Cannot wait for his first squad selection, and how that pans out v Scotland.

[Banquo]

He is no Stuart Hooper, but he is a breath of fresh air. I have no qualms about his appointment too close to the WC, and certainly have no reason to raise concerns on his tenure that currently do not exist. Cannot wait for his first squad selection, and how that pans out v Scotland.

Never thought of him as a 'breath of fresh air', more of a comforting whiff of pipe tobacco.

If you have no concerns, thats concerning more interesting than his squad would surely be his pitchside attire to you surely?

[Mr Mwenda]

Starting out, I wonder what Borthwick's priorities are. Your implication that stamping his mark in general, going for 6N results realistically and aiming for consistency into the RWC sounds about right.

What would we say would constitute a successful 6N for Borthwick?

Personally, I'd say three victories would be a decent, if not overwhelming, result. We have to win our first two at home to Scotland and Italy and winning one more against an injury-hit Wales or a minor upset against Ireland or France should be within our capabilities.

Two victories would be disappointing, but possibly acceptable depending on whether we looked like we were building something. 2/5 with us just looking abject and planless would obviously not be good enough.

What's everyone else's take?

Puja

Something like that. Scotland need to be beaten, it has been far too fucking long. He'll need to watch out for Italy. They're desperate that the only 6n scalp they lack is England's and will sense an opportunity...

[Oakboy]

I'd be disappointed if we did not beat Scotland, Italy and Wales. If all goes well we could beat one of Ireland or France. In the psychological mind-games pre-match I'd imagine France would be a smidge apprehensive coming to Twickenham with England 3/3. Even Ireland in Dublin might think hard if England arrive 4/4. If Borthwick had set the fixture order himself, I'd guess he'd choose what we've got.

[SDHoneymonster]

I'd be disappointed if we did not beat Scotland, Italy and Wales. If all goes well we could beat one of Ireland or France. In the psychological mind-games pre-match I'd imagine France would be a smidge apprehensive coming to Twickenham with England 3/3. Even Ireland in Dublin might think hard if England arrive 4/4. If Borthwick had set the fixture order himself, I'd guess he'd choose what we've got.

I think there's possibly some lingering apprehension for Ireland over how England pretty much demolished their world cup before it even started in 2019 by spanking them in Dublin, and whether another England victory means it's the same old story for them come the big show. Farrell strikes me as the sort of head coach who could harness that into a big performance however.

[Oakboy]

Farrell available - only a 3 week ban!

[Mikey Brown]

Truly shocking.

[francoisfou]

Scandalous, but totally expected.

[FKAS]

"He was given two weeks' mitigation for his early admission of the charge and "exemplary" conduct during the hearing."

From the Beeb. Good old bit of consistency in decision making.

[jimKRFC]

Apparently he also no impact on the game after the "tackle"..... wonder why people have no faith in the citing/disciplinary process.

[Puja]

It gets even bullshittier than it looks on first viewing. Farrell is banned for four "meaningful games", with one removed if he completes the tackling course. Given that he's guaranteed to be attending the England training camp pre-6N and therefore would be missing Saracens' game against Bristol, that would make his third game the Scotland match.

However, Farrell's defence team have argued that, "No announcement has yet been made as to the England Squad for the forthcoming Six Nations fixtures [and thus] the question as to whether forthcoming fixtures are meaningful can only be judged on the best information available at the time of the decision." So they are counting the Bristol game on the basis that Who knows if Farrell will be selected for England? It's a complete mystery!

There is the weasel words of, "Should those games be cancelled or rearranged, or should there be a change of circumstances, then it will be the responsibility of the parties to consider the position and to ensure that the sanction imposed by this Panel remains meaningful. If necessary, the Player’s free to play date will be amended to ensure the sanction remains meaningful. That responsibility was made clear to the Parties during the hearing," but I don't expect anything to come of it. Worst case scenario, Farrell will miss the first week of training and be added to the England squad the day after the Bristol game in order to evade the ban.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I know the 'exemplary conduct' thing is common (though why should the expectation be any lower than that for a disciplinary hearing?) but now early admission is a thing too?

We've all seen the video. Did they think he was going to claim it was somebody else that did it? What does that even mean?

[SDHoneymonster]

There is the weasel words of, "Should those games be cancelled or rearranged, or should there be a change of circumstances, then it will be the responsibility of the parties to consider the position and to ensure that the sanction imposed by this Panel remains meaningful. If necessary, the Player’s free to play date will be amended to ensure the sanction remains meaningful. That responsibility was made clear to the Parties during the hearing," but I don't expect anything to come of it. Worst case scenario, Farrell will miss the first week of training and be added to the England squad the day after the Bristol game in order to evade the ban.

Puja

Fairly certain England did something very similar with Sinckler a couple of years back - left him out deliberately to include a game in his suspension that wouldn't otherwise have been and that meant he was available sooner. The RFU should really cotton on to that if the same is done here. In other news, Tom Curry is out of the Scotland game and possibly the Italy game too.

[fivepointer]

The Farrell ban and mealy mouthed comments from the panel are exactly what i expected.
Cant give him a reduction due to previous record? No problem, lets give him a couple of weeks off for admitting guilt and being a thoroughly nice chap. Oh and tackle school (just how long has Farrell been a Pro?) will shave another week off.
It stinks. The whole thing needs overhaul.

[Mr Mwenda]

It's like they forget the increasing number of court cases around head injuries...