Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:59 am
quite funny to be arguing about locks (and even wings) when the issues were much more manifest elsewhere. Hardly struggled for possession (and good possession quite a lot of the time) nor territory. The humungeous issues were defence including poor tackling, volume and poor quality of kicking (esp in attack), utter lack of any useful go forward from midfield, decision making in attack, well iffy handling at key moments, and discipline. Under the microscope for me is 8,9,10,12 each with individual and unit areas to work on- newish units, so probably should be given a chance-- the second Malins did kind of show what the principles behind selection and play were, and it was a skilled piece of interplay, not easy to pull off at all.
I suppose we've done the 10/12 bit to death. Why a head coach cannot simply force himself to pick his best FH and stay with it, I don't understand. Farrell as a compulsory presence for every single one of every game's 80 minutes is ludicrous.
I think Youngs has to go and that's that.
The 8 shirt though . . . ? I suppose the question SB MUST ask himself is, "Will persevering with Dombrandt give us the best long-term solution?" I'd guess it is 50/50. If Dombrandt can crack it as a consistent top-class international, then great! I have my doubts but I think his core talent requires a realistic chance. How many games that amounts to, who knows.
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:59 am
quite funny to be arguing about locks (and even wings) when the issues were much more manifest elsewhere. Hardly struggled for possession (and good possession quite a lot of the time) nor territory. The humungeous issues were defence including poor tackling, volume and poor quality of kicking (esp in attack), utter lack of any useful go forward from midfield, decision making in attack, well iffy handling at key moments, and discipline. Under the microscope for me is 8,9,10,12 each with individual and unit areas to work on- newish units, so probably should be given a chance-- the second Malins did kind of show what the principles behind selection and play were, and it was a skilled piece of interplay, not easy to pull off at all.
I thought our kicking game was one of the reasons we were actually in the match. We forced Scotland to concede a lot of lineouts in their half with us gaining around 30m through the kicking game forcing Hogg into a position where he'd have to chase his own kick and then isolating the Scottish wings or pressuring Russell. Really worked well for us.
We talk about the Malins second try being exactly the type of phase play England should be wanting to recreate but it all comes from England's kicking game pulling Scotland around and forcing them kick whilst poorly aligned.
If Tuilagi was not selected against Scotland, even with Kelly and Slade out injured, I don't see what SB has to gain from picking him against Italy. The choice of Farrell or Tuilagi at 12 sums up where English rugby is at. I'd rather have 12T than either. Slade, Kelly or Lawrence - any of them - should get the shirt.
You'd rather than Twelvetrees than Tuilagi? Where are you getting this idea from that he's now utterly useless?
He's playing 12 every week and I'm still surprised we weren't interested in his direct running threat through the middle. I don't think he's the force he was, and has lost a bit of pace, but still seems like it would have been worth looking at especially with B&I Lions cert Kelly injured. Farrell/Smith and Marchant either side would at least have some balance to it, or try Lawrence there.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:39 pm
You'd rather than Twelvetrees than Tuilagi? Where are you getting this idea from that he's now utterly useless?
He's playing 12 every week and I'm still surprised we weren't interested in his direct running threat through the middle. I don't think he's the force he was, and has lost a bit of pace, but still seems like it would have been worth looking at especially with B&I Lions cert Kelly injured. Farrell/Smith and Marchant either side would at least have some balance to it, or try Lawrence there.
B&I Lion Kelly, at 6' 8", would bring a wealth of experience to the line, which would only be good for Finding His Feet Smith.
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:59 am
quite funny to be arguing about locks (and even wings) when the issues were much more manifest elsewhere. Hardly struggled for possession (and good possession quite a lot of the time) nor territory. The humungeous issues were defence including poor tackling, volume and poor quality of kicking (esp in attack), utter lack of any useful go forward from midfield, decision making in attack, well iffy handling at key moments, and discipline. Under the microscope for me is 8,9,10,12 each with individual and unit areas to work on- newish units, so probably should be given a chance-- the second Malins did kind of show what the principles behind selection and play were, and it was a skilled piece of interplay, not easy to pull off at all.
I thought our kicking game was one of the reasons we were actually in the match. We forced Scotland to concede a lot of lineouts in their half with us gaining around 30m through the kicking game forcing Hogg into a position where he'd have to chase his own kick and then isolating the Scottish wings or pressuring Russell. Really worked well for us.
We talk about the Malins second try being exactly the type of phase play England should be wanting to recreate but it all comes from England's kicking game pulling Scotland around and forcing them kick whilst poorly aligned.
I'm not saying kicking per se is a bad thing (hence referencing volume and quality specifically), and indeed it probably accounts for our massive territorial domination (which mean fck all if you lose) in the second half; but the kicking on the edge of the 22, which happened a lot...JVP, Youngs and Faz all kicked balls away in attack which were free releases for Scotland. We also kicked 37 times, 50% more than Wales or Ireland- so its volume and choice I'm aiming at...and the choices and execution around their 22 esp were terrible- so unsurprisingly some worked well, but there was a lot of waste too, and imo having got the territory and pressure we chucked it away. I know SB is a slave to kicking more winning in the prem ...mind Scotland kicked more than us, so there is that.
(on the Malins try, it went through a load of phases before the try, so I'd give credit to the preceding attacks rather than the kicking disorg)
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:59 am
quite funny to be arguing about locks (and even wings) when the issues were much more manifest elsewhere. Hardly struggled for possession (and good possession quite a lot of the time) nor territory. The humungeous issues were defence including poor tackling, volume and poor quality of kicking (esp in attack), utter lack of any useful go forward from midfield, decision making in attack, well iffy handling at key moments, and discipline. Under the microscope for me is 8,9,10,12 each with individual and unit areas to work on- newish units, so probably should be given a chance-- the second Malins did kind of show what the principles behind selection and play were, and it was a skilled piece of interplay, not easy to pull off at all.
I thought our kicking game was one of the reasons we were actually in the match. We forced Scotland to concede a lot of lineouts in their half with us gaining around 30m through the kicking game forcing Hogg into a position where he'd have to chase his own kick and then isolating the Scottish wings or pressuring Russell. Really worked well for us.
We talk about the Malins second try being exactly the type of phase play England should be wanting to recreate but it all comes from England's kicking game pulling Scotland around and forcing them kick whilst poorly aligned.
I'm not saying kicking per se is a bad thing (hence referencing volume and quality specifically), and indeed it probably accounts for our massive territorial domination (which mean fck all if you lose) in the second half; but the kicking on the edge of the 22, which happened a lot...JVP, Youngs and Faz all kicked balls away in attack which were free releases for Scotland. We also kicked 37 times, 50% more than Wales or Ireland- so its volume and choice I'm aiming at...and the choices and execution around their 22 esp were terrible- so unsurprisingly some worked well, but there was a lot of waste too, and imo having got the territory and pressure we chucked it away. I know SB is a slave to kicking more winning in the prem ...mind Scotland kicked more than us, so there is that.
Tactical kicking has its place in rugby, but we are seeing far too much of it now and mostly it's badly done. The over cooked box kick, or the aimless belt down the middle of the pitch to instigate the never-ending ping pong are the order of the day. International players look short of skill and imagination and needlessly hand the ball back to their opponents time after time, often because they can't think of anything else more inventive. I think that now, too much of the pivotal play-making comes through the 9, but many (most?) scrum halves are not up to it with their limited decision making and skill set. Sometimes all you want is quick ball and a fast, accurate pass. (And a little more carte blanche from the coach to let the team play what's in front of it.)
Sadly I think that’s just not true anymore. As much I’d love to just watch people run it endlessly, there’s many good reasons a lot of teams don’t want to.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:52 pm
Sadly I think that’s just not true anymore. As much I’d love to just watch people run it endlessly, there’s many good reasons a lot of teams don’t want to.
Just to be clear, I am not advocating endless running just for the sake of it. I started off by saying that tactical kicking has a place in rugby. My point was - there is too much of it and it's not well done.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:26 pm
Arundell and Slade return to the squad. Alas no Kelly. Lawes still recovering.
Otherwise its as you were.
Murley and Porter make way. Shame for Murley - clearly hasn't impressed in training, which is a massive surprise to me, but IBWT (at least for the time being).
Real shame Future Lions Captain Kelly hasn't recovered for this one. The midfield was a dog's dinner in defence last weekend. Are we heading back to the Manu/Slade combination?
On the kicking game, I though England's general tactic of kicking long down the middle worked quite well. The problem was one they have had for a few years, deciding when the kicking has done its job.
The chips from around the 22 were the clearest manifestation of that. None of them were terrible kicks but collectively they were massive let offs for Scotland. Given England's territory, Scotland didn't have to spend that much time defending phase after phase in dangerous areas. The little kicks in attack should be saved for when there is someone chasing who has a chance of getting there first. Otherwise, they look good and get praised by commentators as keeping the pressure on, but actually do the opposite.
I also think that you have to mix up that tactic with at least some attacks from within your half. If nothing else, it makes the forwards work. WP Nel is an old man, make him have to defend not just watch kicks.
fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:26 pm
Arundell and Slade return to the squad. Alas no Kelly. Lawes still recovering.
Otherwise its as you were.
Murley and Porter make way. Shame for Murley - clearly hasn't impressed in training, which is a massive surprise to me, but IBWT (at least for the time being).
Puja
Yeah, nothing you can really argue with when you don’t get to see how they perform in training but it seems strange from a domestic form perspective. Shame.
How much has Arundel played since being fit again?
Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:17 pm
Arundell played 20 minutes off the bench the other day.
That's it though
According to Charlie Morgan, he "played some part in preparations for" Saturday's match towards the end of last week. Not sure what to read into that, if anything.
Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:17 pm
Arundell played 20 minutes off the bench the other day.
That's it though
According to Charlie Morgan, he "played some part in preparations for" Saturday's match towards the end of last week. Not sure what to read into that, if anything.
I'm hopeful that he's just in for training and will go back at the weekend to get some more gametime with Irish's cup game.
Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:17 pm
Arundell played 20 minutes off the bench the other day.
That's it though
According to Charlie Morgan, he "played some part in preparations for" Saturday's match towards the end of last week. Not sure what to read into that, if anything.
I'm hopeful that he's just in for training and will go back at the weekend to get some more gametime with Irish's cup game.
Puja
Doesn't sound like that from what Morgan is saying - he "understands" that there won't be concerns about his match fitness. (Interestingly, according to Will Kelleher, it was a metatarsal imjury.)
...mind Scotland kicked more than us, so there is that.
