EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[FKAS]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ardom.html

Interview with Mrs Chessum about her sons.

[Puja]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ardom.html

Interview with Mrs Chessum about her sons.

Interesting story - glad they were rescued from the football scrapheap. Interesting that there's a third brother coming through as well - wonder where he plays. If he's not 6ft7 as well, then that's gotta be hard growing up as the short one!

Puja

[FKAS]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... ardom.html

Interview with Mrs Chessum about her sons.

Interesting story - glad they were rescued from the football scrapheap. Interesting that there's a third brother coming through as well - wonder where he plays. If he's not 6ft7 as well, then that's gotta be hard growing up as the short one!

Puja

There would be some hilarity in their brother coming through as a 5ft9 scrum half.

I did like how the article referred to them both being 6ft7 but in every picture where they are stood side by side (bar the one of them as kids) Lewis is clearly a couple of inches taller.

Hopefully see both in the row for Tigers at some point.

[Banquo]

spooky thread v post subject mismatch above

[Puja]

spooky thread v post subject mismatch above

Bloody mod interfering again.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Re the Itoje debate:

‘Itoje has an undesirable reputation for being a penalty machine, which gained traction after he conceded five in England’s defeat by Wales in 2021. Critics of Itoje’s performance against Scotland on Saturday pointed to his discipline. He conceded two penalties, which was the same as Ollie Chessum.

However, last year, Itoje’s ratio of winning turnovers to conceding penalties was second only in his Test career to 2019, which was the best year of his career as England reached the World Cup final. Last year, he averaged 1.5 turnovers won per game and 0.9 penalties conceded. In 2019 it was 1.6 and 0.6 respectively.

Itoje’s role in the team has changed over the past few years. He started calling England’s lineout after George Kruis retired, a strategic responsibility that England felt initially had an impact on his wider game. As Eddie Jones tried to evolve a newfangled attack, Itoje began to carry less and hit more rucks.

On Saturday against Scotland, he hit 44 rucks and made 12 tackles, conceding only one penalty (the other was for a careless offside) and he made five carries, two of which came in quick succession in the build-up to England’s first try and helped narrow the defence.

In each of the past two years he has hit on average almost 24 rucks per game, whereas in 2020 it was only 6.2. His carries per game peaked at 8.1 in 2017; now it’s between five and six.

While Itoje’s workrate in clearing rucks has rocketed, his carries have dipped in number but increased in quality. He is making more dominant carries than at any stage since his debut season, in 2016, when England were defeating all comers.’

I’ve attached supporting charts with trepidation

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/six- ... -bcxh9b3wp

[Banquo]

spooky thread v post subject mismatch above

Bloody mod interfering again.

Puja

I was on the cusp of making a joke about multiple Mrs Chessum article posts, but phew

[Banquo]

Re the Itoje debate:

‘Itoje has an undesirable reputation for being a penalty machine, which gained traction after he conceded five in England’s defeat by Wales in 2021. Critics of Itoje’s performance against Scotland on Saturday pointed to his discipline. He conceded two penalties, which was the same as Ollie Chessum.

However, last year, Itoje’s ratio of winning turnovers to conceding penalties was second only in his Test career to 2019, which was the best year of his career as England reached the World Cup final. Last year, he averaged 1.5 turnovers won per game and 0.9 penalties conceded. In 2019 it was 1.6 and 0.6 respectively.

Itoje’s role in the team has changed over the past few years. He started calling England’s lineout after George Kruis retired, a strategic responsibility that England felt initially had an impact on his wider game. As Eddie Jones tried to evolve a newfangled attack, Itoje began to carry less and hit more rucks.

On Saturday against Scotland, he hit 44 rucks and made 12 tackles, conceding only one penalty (the other was for a careless offside) and he made five carries, two of which came in quick succession in the build-up to England’s first try and helped narrow the defence.

In each of the past two years he has hit on average almost 24 rucks per game, whereas in 2020 it was only 6.2. His carries per game peaked at 8.1 in 2017; now it’s between five and six.

While Itoje’s workrate in clearing rucks has rocketed, his carries have dipped in number but increased in quality. He is making more dominant carries than at any stage since his debut season, in 2016, when England were defeating all comers.’

I’ve attached supporting charts with trepidation

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/six- ... -bcxh9b3wp

.....very interesting. And that's without talking about his restart and lineout play- he's very good at winning and competing in the air. Obviously hitting rucks as a clearer so much affects his ability to jackal--- and also, as before, the clampdown on hands beyond the ball make the risk and reward equation harder for big lads.

But the headline is- as some have suggested- he's still doing masses of work, not necessarily highlight reel. May also explain why he looks shagged out - he always does 80 too. He also seems to be in the process of giving himself a kick up the ar5e!

(the comments underneath are very odd- basically, yeah....drop him!)

[Oakboy]

I hoped and expected Itoje to be transformed by SB. Maybe, in due course, he will be.

[Mikey Brown]

After one game?

[Banquo]

I hoped and expected Itoje to be transformed by SB. Maybe, in due course, he will be.

did you actually read the article? Or do you mean...ask him to hit less rucks and do more carrying and jackalling,because he appears to have done the opposite!

[Oakboy]

I hoped and expected Itoje to be transformed by SB. Maybe, in due course, he will be.

did you actually read the article? Or do you mean...ask him to hit less rucks and do more carrying and jackalling,because he appears to have done the opposite!

Statistics . . . V perception? It's strange how many pundits have raised the subject. Maybe, they/I should back off for a game or two, especially if Willis starts. I think a more competitive back row (in every sense) may push Itoje back to former duties.

[Oakboy]

After one game?

One can hope it won't take much longer!!!!!!

[Banquo]

I hoped and expected Itoje to be transformed by SB. Maybe, in due course, he will be.

did you actually read the article? Or do you mean...ask him to hit less rucks and do more carrying and jackalling,because he appears to have done the opposite!

Statistics . . . V perception? It's strange how many pundits have raised the subject. Maybe, they/I should back off for a game or two, especially if Willis starts. I think a more competitive back row (in every sense) may push Itoje back to former duties.

well quite- hitting rucks isn't some obscure stat. Its strange how many pundits clearly aren't watching what's happening.

[Banquo]

After one game?

One can hope it won't take much longer!!!!!!

so- exactly what would that 'transformation' look like? To me it looks like he is taking one for the team.

[Oakboy]

After one game?

One can hope it won't take much longer!!!!!!

so- exactly what would that 'transformation' look like? To me it looks like he is taking one for the team.

I think the first difference would be as fundamental as him looking like he was enjoying playing again (perhaps reinforcing your point). Saturday saw him look up for it at anthem time, have one old-style carry early on and then resort to dutiful application (looking almost bored). I never minded him conceding 'in-your-face', niggly penalties. He used to be an 80 minute nuisance to the opposition. Now, he goes through the motions or 'does unseen work' depending on your viewpoint. I don't want Itoje just grafting in the background, a la Kay, I want him leading the pack, a la Johnson.

[Mellsblue]

Is this the same line of thinking as the theory that Ford was subservient to Farrell, ie long on conjecture?
Do we need Itoje to go back to his former self if his current role makes the XV better? You’re always, rightly, asking for a team greater than the sum of its parts. That will involve players performing a role that improves the team even if it might not be the role you think will maximise the player. There’s always the chance that he will be able to get back to his former self once Chessum acclimatises, Borthmeister evolves the game plan etc etc. There’s a few definitive views being built based on game one and week three of a new regime.

[Banquo]

One can hope it won't take much longer!!!!!!

so- exactly what would that 'transformation' look like? To me it looks like he is taking one for the team.

I think the first difference would be as fundamental as him looking like he was enjoying playing again (perhaps reinforcing your point). Saturday saw him look up for it at anthem time, have one old-style carry early on and then resort to dutiful application (looking almost bored). I never minded him conceding 'in-your-face', niggly penalties. He used to be an 80 minute nuisance to the opposition. Now, he goes through the motions or 'does unseen work' depending on your viewpoint. I don't want Itoje just grafting in the background, a la Kay, I want him leading the pack, a la Johnson.

He's doing what he's being asked to do. He's probably not enjoying playing in a sh*t team .

(hitting 44 rucks has clearly been seen).

[Oakboy]

Is this the same line of thinking as the theory that Ford was subservient to Farrell, ie long on conjecture?
Do we need Itoje to go back to his former self if his current role makes the XV better? You’re always, rightly, asking for a team greater than the sum of its parts. That will involve players performing a role that improves the team even if it might not be the role you think will maximise the player. There’s always the chance that he will be able to get back to his former self once Chessum acclimatises, Borthmeister evolves the game plan etc etc. There’s a few definitive views being built based on game one and week three of a new regime.

I don't want to keep mentioning the horrible Australian's name - much better to look forward. SB has said that hell of a lot needs putting right. Getting the best out of Itoje for the team must be at the top of his list. I've never understood his departure from captaincy discussions. I suspect that is symptomatic of him not playing the way he wants to - in that his influence on everything in camp is not what he wants it to be. He looked such an obvious captain at age-grade level, more or less dominating his peers. Was it asking too much of him to transfer that to senior level? Based on his high intelligence, skill set and character, I don't think so. That points to him simply not being used properly.

[Banquo]

Is this the same line of thinking as the theory that Ford was subservient to Farrell, ie long on conjecture?
Do we need Itoje to go back to his former self if his current role makes the XV better? You’re always, rightly, asking for a team greater than the sum of its parts. That will involve players performing a role that improves the team even if it might not be the role you think will maximise the player. There’s always the chance that he will be able to get back to his former self once Chessum acclimatises, Borthmeister evolves the game plan etc etc. There’s a few definitive views being built based on game one and week three of a new regime.

I don't want to keep mentioning the horrible Australian's name - much better to look forward. SB has said that hell of a lot needs putting right. Getting the best out of Itoje for the team must be at the top of his list. I've never understood his departure from captaincy discussions. I suspect that is symptomatic of him not playing the way he wants to - in that his influence on everything in camp is not what he wants it to be. He looked such an obvious captain at age-grade level, more or less dominating his peers. Was it asking too much of him to transfer that to senior level? Based on his high intelligence, skill set and character, I don't think so. That points to him simply not being used properly.

can we compromise- he has such a broadly top skill set for lock that this enables him to perform a number of roles; I'm guessing the wickanator has spotted that our ruck ball has been less than secure, so has asked Itoje to use his engine and physical presence to hit a lot more attacking rucks to stop us being turned over so often and that worked (ironically, I suspect also had the impact of slowing the ball down, as Itoje was supporting some rucks in a way he didn't seem used to, with his feet being in the wrong place). He still had his lineout and scrum work to do, and made a couple of carries and a load of tackles. No wonder he looked shagged, esp in a game with a sh*t load of kicking.

[Which Tyler]

Can I just say that I really appreciate the way that Steve Borthwick has become a board-version of Benadryl Cabbagepatch, in that we all know who's being talked about, just by using approximately the right number of syllables

[Danno]

Glol

[Banquo]

Can I just say that I really appreciate the way that Steve Borthwick has become a board-version of Benadryl Cabbagepatch, in that we all know who's being talked about, just by using approximately the right number of syllables

Grandborthmeister funk railroad you mean?

[FKAS]

Is this the same line of thinking as the theory that Ford was subservient to Farrell, ie long on conjecture?
Do we need Itoje to go back to his former self if his current role makes the XV better? You’re always, rightly, asking for a team greater than the sum of its parts. That will involve players performing a role that improves the team even if it might not be the role you think will maximise the player. There’s always the chance that he will be able to get back to his former self once Chessum acclimatises, Borthmeister evolves the game plan etc etc. There’s a few definitive views being built based on game one and week three of a new regime.

I don't want to keep mentioning the horrible Australian's name - much better to look forward. SB has said that hell of a lot needs putting right. Getting the best out of Itoje for the team must be at the top of his list. I've never understood his departure from captaincy discussions. I suspect that is symptomatic of him not playing the way he wants to - in that his influence on everything in camp is not what he wants it to be. He looked such an obvious captain at age-grade level, more or less dominating his peers. Was it asking too much of him to transfer that to senior level? Based on his high intelligence, skill set and character, I don't think so. That points to him simply not being used properly.

can we compromise- he has such a broadly top skill set for lock that this enables him to perform a number of roles; I'm guessing the wickanator has spotted that our ruck ball has been less than secure, so has asked Itoje to use his engine and physical presence to hit a lot more attacking rucks to stop us being turned over so often and that worked (ironically, I suspect also had the impact of slowing the ball down, as Itoje was supporting some rucks in a way he didn't seem used to, with his feet being in the wrong place). He still had his lineout and scrum work to do, and made a couple of carries and a load of tackles. No wonder he looked shagged, esp in a game with a sh*t load of kicking.

Considering how good England looked with quick ball compared to how toothless we were without it I'd hope it's an area Borthwick is directing a lot of attention on, particularly in the opposition 22.

[Banquo]

I don't want to keep mentioning the horrible Australian's name - much better to look forward. SB has said that hell of a lot needs putting right. Getting the best out of Itoje for the team must be at the top of his list. I've never understood his departure from captaincy discussions. I suspect that is symptomatic of him not playing the way he wants to - in that his influence on everything in camp is not what he wants it to be. He looked such an obvious captain at age-grade level, more or less dominating his peers. Was it asking too much of him to transfer that to senior level? Based on his high intelligence, skill set and character, I don't think so. That points to him simply not being used properly.

can we compromise- he has such a broadly top skill set for lock that this enables him to perform a number of roles; I'm guessing the wickanator has spotted that our ruck ball has been less than secure, so has asked Itoje to use his engine and physical presence to hit a lot more attacking rucks to stop us being turned over so often and that worked (ironically, I suspect also had the impact of slowing the ball down, as Itoje was supporting some rucks in a way he didn't seem used to, with his feet being in the wrong place). He still had his lineout and scrum work to do, and made a couple of carries and a load of tackles. No wonder he looked shagged, esp in a game with a sh*t load of kicking.

Considering how good England looked with quick ball compared to how toothless we were without it I'd hope it's an area Borthwick is directing a lot of attention on, particularly in the opposition 22.

yes, a lot of our good approach play ball in hand was characterised by fast-ish ruck speed (not mega quick tbf)--- but then that's true of every team tbh--- but then we ran out of ruck speed and then ideas, and that may be because we over resourced the first three or four rucks and then ran out of numbers, enabling them to slow it down, or that we ran out of gas....and the solution might be looking at how to generate quick ruck ball without throwing the kitchen sink/Itoje into every breakdown; the Scot for example clear out quite a way beyond the ball to prevent defenders having another bite before the ball is cleared-- but that takes precision and practice.