Squad named

[Oakboy]

Marchant in for Tuilagi is good.

[Banquo]

Marchant in for Tuilagi is good.

Hobson's choice or summat.

[stepsider]

Bearing in mind the Prem clubs' debt mountains at a time of sharply rising interest rates while economic recession is looming, and maybe a restructure now wouldn't be a bad idea. But that's a whole new topic.

in the meantime - and admittedly it's an arbitrary timeframe - I'd like to see the RFU extend the exemption for another year for players whose employers have gone to the wall.

Agreed on the restructure, although not sure the current management of the RFU should be allowed to make any decisions for anyone.

I don't see it as a massive problem that needs a solution. The only one of the England squad in France because of Wasps/Wuss demise is JWillis and, if he wants to come back to England, someone will make room for him. He's too good a player. Extending the exemption only really gives him the opportunity to have his cake and eat it for another season, while depriving the recovering Prem of the star power of one of England's best players.

Puja

T'would be great to see J Willis return to the Prem (as well as his brother).

I do concur, however re. the RFU. It needs new management itself before being able to restructure English rugby!

[Mellsblue]

I think a blanket ban is silly in this situation and in general, tbh. If someone has been forced to move abroad, ala J Willy, and gets to train and play at one of the top 2/3/4 clubs in Europe, ala J Willy, and is in a weak bargaining position for next season, ala probably J Willy, I think a ban on selection is unfair and and possibly self-defeating.
For the money that a club will spend on someone of J Willy’s calibre they could easily sign a Kiwi who would have the same draw for spectators, sponsors and tv execs.
As for training time, it’s a different situation now with new systems being installed than in 12 months time and must be set against the quality of training at his club, which he’s been very complimentary about.

[Mikey Brown]

Marchant in for Tuilagi is good.

Hobson's choice or summat.

No Fraser Dingwall, but surely that’s not terrible for third choice centre?

[stepsider]

Marchant in for Tuilagi is good.

Hobson's choice or summat.

No Fraser Dingwall, but surely that’s not terrible for third choice centre?

Our third choice centre, surely, is the captain/goalkicker/tackle guru/amateur wrestler etc,.

[Banquo]

Marchant in for Tuilagi is good.

Hobson's choice or summat.

No Fraser Dingwall, but surely that’s not terrible for third choice centre?

Hobson's choice means not a real choice at all (I don't think Tuilagi is really in much contention, certainly at 13, Marchant's position). But why jump to the conclusion that I'm saying 'terrible' anyway. Meh, more like. And I've said a few times that Fraser has been in bad nick this season to be clear...

[Mikey Brown]

I have no idea where Borthwick/Evans would view Tuilagi as playing, to be fair, and he was named in the squad so I guess I considered him as still in contention for a bench spot. Especially as we’re already fielding two 13s.

[Banquo]

I have no idea where Borthwick/Evans would view Tuilagi as playing, to be fair, and he was named in the squad so I guess I considered him as still in contention for a bench spot. Especially as we’re already fielding two 13s.

That’s the thing about opinions. Given Tuilagi has been sent home early both times so far, that he has played mostly at 12 this season, and not that well, I was opining that he wasn’t really competing that hard with Marchant at the mo. Lawrence played well at 12 as well, and we know Faz is reserve 12, so I ventured that Manu is somewhat down the list. Not entirely unreasonable. Maybe easier to have said I’m not sure Manu v Marchant was actually the choice made.

[Mikey Brown]

I fear that once again I’ve dragged us in to a discussion about nothing much at all, or maybe just the definition of competition/contention.

I suppose you’re right though, if we continue to view Farrell at 12 as plan B regardless of how well a direct-running 12 goes. You’d think Tuilagi continues as the next best option in that role, but maybe he’s just not up to it in any capacity now.

[FKAS]

I have no idea where Borthwick/Evans would view Tuilagi as playing, to be fair, and he was named in the squad so I guess I considered him as still in contention for a bench spot. Especially as we’re already fielding two 13s.

That’s the thing about opinions. Given Tuilagi has been sent home early both times so far, that he has played mostly at 12 this season, and not that well, I was opining that he wasn’t really competing that hard with Marchant at the mo. Lawrence played well at 12 as well, and we know Faz is reserve 12, so I ventured that Manu is somewhat down the list. Not entirely unreasonable. Maybe easier to have said I’m not sure Manu v Marchant was actually the choice made.

Borthwick was allowed 5 changes to the EPS plus any injury replacements. Given he called up Lawrence as soon as more injury spots became available in the backline maybe suggests he wasn't that fussed about having Manu in the squad but had more pressing issues for the 5 initial changes.

[stepsider]

Team selection for the next match may not matter anyway, according to the much-maligned Mail, as Wales' players may be going on strike because of poor pay deals:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... doubt.html

So the Cardiff clash could be canned.

[FKAS]

Team selection for the next match may not matter anyway, according to the much-maligned Mail, as Wales' players may be going on strike because of poor pay deals:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... doubt.html

So the Cardiff clash could be canned.

Presumably Wales would have to send out a semi pro team or forfeit? Would cost the WRU a small fortune with no game Vs England at the Principality.

[stepsider]

A forfeit would at least avoid another loss.

[Mellsblue]

I think a blanket ban is silly in this situation and in general, tbh. If someone has been forced to move abroad, ala J Willy, and gets to train and play at one of the top 2/3/4 clubs in Europe, ala J Willy, and is in a weak bargaining position for next season, ala probably J Willy, I think a ban on selection is unfair and and possibly self-defeating.
For the money that a club will spend on someone of J Willy’s calibre they could easily sign a Kiwi who would have the same draw for spectators, sponsors and tv execs.
As for training time, it’s a different situation now with new systems being installed than in 12 months time and must be set against the quality of training at his club, which he’s been very complimentary about.

J Willy has said similar this week and hinting that he may stay on at Toulouse next season.

[Puja]

I think a blanket ban is silly in this situation and in general, tbh. If someone has been forced to move abroad, ala J Willy, and gets to train and play at one of the top 2/3/4 clubs in Europe, ala J Willy, and is in a weak bargaining position for next season, ala probably J Willy, I think a ban on selection is unfair and and possibly self-defeating.
For the money that a club will spend on someone of J Willy’s calibre they could easily sign a Kiwi who would have the same draw for spectators, sponsors and tv execs.
As for training time, it’s a different situation now with new systems being installed than in 12 months time and must be set against the quality of training at his club, which he’s been very complimentary about.

J Willy has said similar this week and hinting that he may stay on at Toulouse next season.

Player in "Wanting to have cake and eat it" shocker.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I think a blanket ban is silly in this situation and in general, tbh. If someone has been forced to move abroad, ala J Willy, and gets to train and play at one of the top 2/3/4 clubs in Europe, ala J Willy, and is in a weak bargaining position for next season, ala probably J Willy, I think a ban on selection is unfair and and possibly self-defeating.
For the money that a club will spend on someone of J Willy’s calibre they could easily sign a Kiwi who would have the same draw for spectators, sponsors and tv execs.
As for training time, it’s a different situation now with new systems being installed than in 12 months time and must be set against the quality of training at his club, which he’s been very complimentary about.

J Willy has said similar this week and hinting that he may stay on at Toulouse next season.

Player in "Wanting to have cake and eat it" shocker.

Puja

The problem is when do too many players (want to)move to the gateau forcing the RFU to relent and let them eat it?
You only have to look to the colonies over Offa’s Dyke to see where we may end up… given the age we live in, I’m surprised so many people are happy with restraining employees choices and earning capacity the way the RFU and PR do.
It also doesn’t really answer the question of whether our top players spending a few years at the top clubs in France and returning as better players couldn’t allow the RFU to have its cake and eat it.

[Puja]

J Willy has said similar this week and hinting that he may stay on at Toulouse next season.

Player in "Wanting to have cake and eat it" shocker.

Puja

The problem is when do too many players (want to)move to the gateau forcing the RFU to relent and let them eat it?
You only have to look to the colonies over Offa’s Dyke to see where we may end up… given the age we live in, I’m surprised so many people are happy with restraining employees choices and earning capacity the way the RFU and PR do.
It also doesn’t really answer the question of whether our top players spending a few years at the top clubs in France and returning as better players couldn’t allow the RFU to have its cake and eat it.

Why would they return if they're getting both French money and EPS money?

Puja

[Which Tyler]

It also doesn’t really answer the question of whether our top players spending a few years at the top clubs in France and returning as better players couldn’t allow the RFU to have its cake and eat it.

Yes, because the RFU absolutely prevented Mercer or Marchant, for example, from going to France / New Zealand for a few years and returning as better players...

[Banquo]

There's a Jim Hamilton training bib whisper that Lawes will start ahead of Itoje, and Watson ahead of OHC. Don't buy it tbh.

[Which Tyler]

But Lawes... isn't a lock any more

[Danno]

There's a Jim Hamilton training bib whisper that Lawes will start ahead of Itoje, and Watson ahead of OHC. Don't buy it tbh.

OHC was dropped (knee) so Watson is at least credible.

[Banquo]

But Lawes... isn't a lock any more

well yes. That's why I don't believe it....but I am given to understand that Bibby Lockwick has always preferred Locky Lawesworthy in the row.

[Banquo]

There's a Jim Hamilton training bib whisper that Lawes will start ahead of Itoje, and Watson ahead of OHC. Don't buy it tbh.

OHC was dropped (knee) so Watson is at least credible.

yup. I'm for Freeman nabbing that spot.

[Mellsblue]

Player in "Wanting to have cake and eat it" shocker.

Puja

The problem is when do too many players (want to)move to the gateau forcing the RFU to relent and let them eat it?
You only have to look to the colonies over Offa’s Dyke to see where we may end up… given the age we live in, I’m surprised so many people are happy with restraining employees choices and earning capacity the way the RFU and PR do.
It also doesn’t really answer the question of whether our top players spending a few years at the top clubs in France and returning as better players couldn’t allow the RFU to have its cake and eat it.

Why would they return if they're getting both French money and EPS money?

Puja

There’s room for grey, doesn’t have to be black or white. Perhaps the first two years of the RWC cycle are exempt. If we’re going black or white: players may want to come back for a myriad of reasons. George Ford moved 3 hours up the road for less money to be closer to home. Players may want their kids educated in England or they or their family may not settle.
Or
PR get their sh!t together and wages climb back towards parity with France.
Ultimately, the RFU may not have a choice and avoiding talks if strikes might be worth a bit of flexible thinking.