Team for Italy

[stepsider]

Whilst obv. would not wish it on anyone, were OF to be unable to play during the 6N through injury or whatever, we would need a style of play into which his #10 replacement could fit.
Unlikely to be a 'Lions/Finn' transformation but would Borthers actually allow a different 10 to play his natural game?

[francoisfou]

When is Ford going to be available? Possibly for France but even that might be a stretch given he has played so little.

He's playing again now isn't he? So he's available for Wales - but only if there's an injury to allow him to come in from outside the EPS.

Good news!
According to Charlie Morgan in the Telegraph, he may well be in the Sale team on Saturday afternoon at Northampton.

[Which Tyler]

Whilst obv. would not wish it on anyone, were OF to be unable to play during the 6N through injury or whatever, we would need a style of play into which his #10 replacement could fit.
Unlikely to be a 'Lions/Finn' transformation but would Borthers actually allow a different 10 to play his natural game?

Part of why I'm such a huge fan of Ford, is that he can play multiple different roles of 10 to a very high standard.
He can do everything Farrell can at 10, and only really lacking impact in the tackle, and petulance; whilst executing better.
He can do everything Smith can at 10, only really lacking half a yard of pace, a hitch-kick and the recklessness of youth (which absolutely has its place, and is scintillating when it comes off).
He can also manage a game over multiple phases better than just about any FH in the game, if that's what the gameplan is.

[FKAS]

When is Ford going to be available? Possibly for France but even that might be a stretch given he has played so little.

He's playing again now isn't he? So he's available for Wales - but only if there's an injury to allow him to come in from outside the EPS.

Depends whether he was in the original EPS or not. I suspect he was and Fin Smith was the injury replacement. He's only played one Prem Cup game though so not going to be fit enough for Wales though hopefully plays again this weekend.

[Oakboy]

Whilst obv. would not wish it on anyone, were OF to be unable to play during the 6N through injury or whatever, we would need a style of play into which his #10 replacement could fit.
Unlikely to be a 'Lions/Finn' transformation but would Borthers actually allow a different 10 to play his natural game?

Part of why I'm such a huge fan of Ford, is that he can play multiple different roles of 10 to a very high standard.
He can do everything Farrell can at 10, and only really lacking impact in the tackle, and petulance; whilst executing better.
He can do everything Smith can at 10, only really lacking half a yard of pace, a hitch-kick and the recklessness of youth (which absolutely has its place, and is scintillating when it comes off).
He can also manage a game over multiple phases better than just about any FH in the game, if that's what the gameplan is.

I was not a fan of Ford for years but now agree with everything you say. As ever, the snag is that, so far, none of England coaching crew of the last 8 years+ concur. The only very minor hope is that Ford's performances for SB at Leicester might count.

[FKAS]

We have kicked the Farrell subject around . . . . .

I will never understand the coaching stance, apparently perpetuated by SB, of not allowing the bench FH to come on and play FH (properly, with two proper [starting] centres). Either the FH should replace the FH or we should not bother with a FH on the bench. It leaves Smith as either pure Farrell-injury cover, or scapegoat because he has Farrell at 12 every time he gets on the pitch.

Smith played last seasons 6N and Baabaas game without Farrell. The game Vs France and the Baabaas debacle were worse performances from 10 than we've seen recently from Farrell. The Farrell at 12 excuse runs a bit thin.

Having said that I would have much preferred Farrell come off and Smith to go on Vs Italy. I'd like us to find a working centre combination and then play them as much as possible and if that's Lawrence and Slade then give them all the minutes so they have a chance to gel. I'd have also like to see Smith get more than 9 minutes because we have to hope at some point potential will become realised.

6N 2021

Rd1:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd2:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd3:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd4:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd5:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Marchant


So a revolving door at 9 - one of which was way past his best and one who was never good enough - a 12 who isn’t a 12 - at least we’re consistent there - and another revolving door at 13, and all behind a pack going backwards and a complete mess when it came to game plan.
If you’re going to pick out individual performances then, despite the above, he won two motm and was top points scorer. He also played 10 when England beat SA the previous autumn, without Farrell.
To sum up, he stated his international career as the wheels were falling off Jones’s reign, he’s played outside Youngs, Care, Randall and JVP, he’s never had an actual 12 and he’s had a revolving cast of Daly, Marchant, Porter and Tuilagi at 13. And all of this in his first 19/20 caps. Not exactly an exemplar of how to introduce a young 10 in to test rugby.

Played with the same experienced centre at 12 in every game (a centre who has played 10 and who played 12 with Smith in the AIs). Considering the lack of 12 options we had available at the time it was about the best we had.

Randall was selected and at the time talked up as better suiting Smith's style and them knowing each other well from age grade rugby.

At outside centre he had his clubmate for three of the five games and an experienced 13 and Lion for the others. I'm not a big fan of Daly at 13 but it gave Smith more experience to draw on.

The two MOTM games were Italy and Scotland weren't they? Italy barely turned up but the game against Scotland was one of his better performances and gave us some hope he'd turn those flashes of class into something more regular. The good from Scotland was outweighed by the shocking performance Vs France in the finale to the 6N. A shame as at that point the pack was doing alright seemingly galvanised by the 14 man showing Vs Ireland and Genge carrying like an 8 from the backfield (poor bugger will be glad that's not need repeated).

[Mellsblue]

Smith played last seasons 6N and Baabaas game without Farrell. The game Vs France and the Baabaas debacle were worse performances from 10 than we've seen recently from Farrell. The Farrell at 12 excuse runs a bit thin.

Having said that I would have much preferred Farrell come off and Smith to go on Vs Italy. I'd like us to find a working centre combination and then play them as much as possible and if that's Lawrence and Slade then give them all the minutes so they have a chance to gel. I'd have also like to see Smith get more than 9 minutes because we have to hope at some point potential will become realised.

6N 2021

Rd1:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd2:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd3:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Daly

Rd4:
Randall
Smith
Slade
Marchant

Rd5:
Youngs
Smith
Slade
Marchant


So a revolving door at 9 - one of which was way past his best and one who was never good enough - a 12 who isn’t a 12 - at least we’re consistent there - and another revolving door at 13, and all behind a pack going backwards and a complete mess when it came to game plan.
If you’re going to pick out individual performances then, despite the above, he won two motm and was top points scorer. He also played 10 when England beat SA the previous autumn, without Farrell.
To sum up, he stated his international career as the wheels were falling off Jones’s reign, he’s played outside Youngs, Care, Randall and JVP, he’s never had an actual 12 and he’s had a revolving cast of Daly, Marchant, Porter and Tuilagi at 13. And all of this in his first 19/20 caps. Not exactly an exemplar of how to introduce a young 10 in to test rugby.

Played with the same experienced centre at 12 in every game (a centre who has played 10 and who played 12 with Smith in the AIs). Considering the lack of 12 options we had available at the time it was about the best we had.

Randall was selected and at the time talked up as better suiting Smith's style and them knowing each other well from age grade rugby.

At outside centre he had his clubmate for three of the five games and an experienced 13 and Lion for the others. I'm not a big fan of Daly at 13 but it gave Smith more experience to draw on.

The two MOTM games were Italy and Scotland weren't they? Italy barely turned up but the game against Scotland was one of his better performances and gave us some hope he'd turn those flashes of class into something more regular. The good from Scotland was outweighed by the shocking performance Vs France in the finale to the 6N. A shame as at that point the pack was doing alright seemingly galvanised by the 14 man showing Vs Ireland and Genge carrying like an 8 from the backfield (poor bugger will be glad that's not need repeated).

I admire your persistence.

[Mikey Brown]

Whilst obv. would not wish it on anyone, were OF to be unable to play during the 6N through injury or whatever, we would need a style of play into which his #10 replacement could fit.
Unlikely to be a 'Lions/Finn' transformation but would Borthers actually allow a different 10 to play his natural game?

Part of why I'm such a huge fan of Ford, is that he can play multiple different roles of 10 to a very high standard.
He can do everything Farrell can at 10, and only really lacking impact in the tackle, and petulance; whilst executing better.
He can do everything Smith can at 10, only really lacking half a yard of pace, a hitch-kick and the recklessness of youth (which absolutely has its place, and is scintillating when it comes off).
He can also manage a game over multiple phases better than just about any FH in the game, if that's what the gameplan is.

I was not a fan of Ford for years but now agree with everything you say. As ever, the snag is that, so far, none of England coaching crew of the last 8 years+ concur. The only very minor hope is that Ford's performances for SB at Leicester might count.

There does seem to be a pattern on here of the best option generally being the one who has played least or is the furthest from memory. Ford is an incredible player, but his KADAB stats would surely have been off the charts at points in his recent England career, which I believe was your main gripe with him. It does leave you asking when was anybody last consistently good at 10 for England. I'd guess it was 2019 Ford when the pack got their shit together.

It's so hard to judge many of these performances with such muddled tactics, coaching and selection. I do think Ford is the best choice and the most rounded option if he can get back to where he was last season and fits with what the team are trying to do. We brought in the Quins midfield and attack coach, appeared to adopt the Quins kicking strategy and then ditched the fly-half for the Saracens one, who then did some very strange stuff. I guess we just have to stay patient as we're only 2 games in, but it's hard not to feel like this is a continuation from Jones.

I'd hope Borthwick's familiarity with Ford could make this less of a mess if he comes back in though. He's generally a very good kicker but seemed completely stuck in a rut under Jones after the world cup. Saying he can do everything Smith can with the ball is way OTT, but he's a good running threat in his own right, a leader and obviously his distribution is incredible.

[FKAS]

Part of why I'm such a huge fan of Ford, is that he can play multiple different roles of 10 to a very high standard.
He can do everything Farrell can at 10, and only really lacking impact in the tackle, and petulance; whilst executing better.
He can do everything Smith can at 10, only really lacking half a yard of pace, a hitch-kick and the recklessness of youth (which absolutely has its place, and is scintillating when it comes off).
He can also manage a game over multiple phases better than just about any FH in the game, if that's what the gameplan is.

I was not a fan of Ford for years but now agree with everything you say. As ever, the snag is that, so far, none of England coaching crew of the last 8 years+ concur. The only very minor hope is that Ford's performances for SB at Leicester might count.

There does seem to be a pattern on here of the best option generally being the one who has played least or is the furthest from memory. Ford is an incredible player, but his KADAB stats would surely have been off the charts at points in his recent England career, which I believe was your main gripe with him. It does leave you asking when was anybody last consistently good at 10 for England. I'd guess it was 2019 Ford when the pack got their shit together.

It's so hard to judge many of these performances with such muddled tactics, coaching and selection. I do think Ford is the best choice and the most rounded option if he can get back to where he was last season and fits with what the team are trying to do. We brought in the Quins midfield and attack coach, appeared to adopt the Quins kicking strategy and then ditched the fly-half for the Saracens one, who then did some very strange stuff. I guess we just have to stay patient as we're only 2 games in, but it's hard not to feel like this is a continuation from Jones.

I'd hope Borthwick's familiarity with Ford could make this less of a mess if he comes back in though. He's generally a very good kicker but seemed completely stuck in a rut under Jones after the world cup. Saying he can do everything Smith can with the ball is way OTT, but he's a good running threat in his own right, a leader and obviously his distribution is incredible.

To be fair to Ford he was playing with an Achilles injury that limited his movement and had a Farrell/Slade centre combination which offered him no running threat to help compensate for his lack of movement. He really shouldn't have been playing for England at that point but Eddie wanted to crowbar some consistency into the backline even though his 2019 options weren't really what we needed.

Need to see how he is when playing back at Prem level. No idea how close or far he is from being an option at this point. On the up side Fin Smith Vs Ford this weekend in the Prem should help give us a better idea.

[Oakboy]

If the main aim of good management is to maximise resources, I wonder whether that could be the crunch with SB in a Ford v Farrell debate. Farrell may inspire and lead by example but getting the best out of the other backs may be where Ford is ultimately preferred. Could it be as simple, one day, as asking the likes of Lawrence, Slade, Steward etc. who they could gel with best?

[p/d]

I’m not too hung up about the 10 shirt. They are all generally pretty dull nowadays - Russell aside. Even St Johnny kicked the ball away far too many times in his England days. He just had a better bunch of b*ggers around him.

I can’t recall us trying to shoehorn Andrew/Barnes into 10 & 12 nor JW & Charlie boy….. so why the feck we are long sufferers of ([add name] & Owen I’m damned if I know

[Puja]

I’m not too hung up about the 10 shirt. They are all generally pretty dull nowadays - Russell aside. Even St Johnny kicked the ball away far too many times in his England days. He just had a better bunch of b*ggers around him.

I can’t recall us trying to shoehorn Andrew/Barnes into 10 & 12 nor JW & Charlie boy….. so why the feck we are long sufferers of ([add name] & Owen I’m damned if I know

I mean... we absolutely did try and fit JW and Hodgson into the same XV. And Wilkinson/Flood too. Admittedly the former got abandoned after 2 games, IIRC.

Puja

[p/d]

I’m not too hung up about the 10 shirt. They are all generally pretty dull nowadays - Russell aside. Even St Johnny kicked the ball away far too many times in his England days. He just had a better bunch of b*ggers around him.

I can’t recall us trying to shoehorn Andrew/Barnes into 10 & 12 nor JW & Charlie boy….. so why the feck we are long sufferers of ([add name] & Owen I’m damned if I know

I mean... we absolutely did try and fit JW and Hodgson into the same XV. And Wilkinson/Flood too. Admittedly the former got abandoned after 2 games, IIRC.

Puja

I wasn’t going to mention Jugs. I do remember him replacing Flutey and coming off the bench a fair bit. But didn’t a lot of his early caps come when JW was injured?

[Banquo]

When is Ford going to be available? Possibly for France but even that might be a stretch given he has played so little.

He's playing again now isn't he? So he's available for Wales - but only if there's an injury to allow him to come in from outside the EPS.

He is playing on Saturday and hotly tipped to come into the EPS squad if OK, with Smith dropping out.


(Finn)

[Banquo]

I’m not too hung up about the 10 shirt. They are all generally pretty dull nowadays - Russell aside. Even St Johnny kicked the ball away far too many times in his England days. He just had a better bunch of b*ggers around him.

I can’t recall us trying to shoehorn Andrew/Barnes into 10 & 12 nor JW & Charlie boy….. so why the feck we are long sufferers of ([add name] & Owen I’m damned if I know

I mean... we absolutely did try and fit JW and Hodgson into the same XV. And Wilkinson/Flood too. Admittedly the former got abandoned after 2 games, IIRC.

Puja

wilko started at 12.

[stepsider]

If so, tough on Smith, but that's showbiz.

[Banquo]

If so, tough on Smith, but that's showbiz.

Its Finn Smith btw ....

[stepsider]

Assumed so, but it's still tough. Was hoping that we could get him on board before Scotland enlist him, but maybe not if he's about to be dumped from the squad.

[Banquo]

Assumed so, but it's still tough. Was hoping that we could get him on board before Scotland enlist him, but maybe not if he's about to be dumped from the squad.

Tricky time to attempt that bit of finessing, assuming we are interested in the World Cup being a 'success'.

[Mikey Brown]

Might as well just skip the text, and the graphs are horrible to look at but there is some interesting stuff in there.

https://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/202 ... two-weeks/

[Timbo]

I’m not too hung up about the 10 shirt. They are all generally pretty dull nowadays - Russell aside. Even St Johnny kicked the ball away far too many times in his England days. He just had a better bunch of b*ggers around him.

I can’t recall us trying to shoehorn Andrew/Barnes into 10 & 12 nor JW & Charlie boy….. so why the feck we are long sufferers of ([add name] & Owen I’m damned if I know

I mean... we absolutely did try and fit JW and Hodgson into the same XV. And Wilkinson/Flood too. Admittedly the former got abandoned after 2 games, IIRC.

Puja

Didn’t Charlie do his knee? Think without the injury that partnership might well have been persisted with.

[p/d]

I think he did his knee after coming on as a replacement. I was at the game and sections of the crowd actually cheered his departure.

we had Grewcock and Shaw that day and there was a young Leicester hero on the Italian bench called Castrogiovanni

[Puja]

Someone showed me this and it hurt me, so now I am hurting all of you with it:

https://fb.watch/iUEMbxUTLw/

Puja

[astralweeks]

Someone showed me this and it hurt me, so now I am hurting all of you with it:

https://fb.watch/iUEMbxUTLw/

Puja

That is so excellent. Has been shared

[Banquo]

Someone showed me this and it hurt me, so now I am hurting all of you with it:

https://fb.watch/iUEMbxUTLw/

Puja

Ruck had to produce something good one day!