EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Banquo]

I don’t see Ludlam v Curry even being close, tbh, whilst acknowledging Ludlam has been very, very good in this 6N. I think you’ve been spending too long in the players’ lounge at FG

i was suggesting him at 8 old fruit. I wasnt a LL fan til this season....massive improvement.

A flanker at 8?!?!? I miss Eddie.

he has played 8 for saints pretty well

[Mellsblue]

i was suggesting him at 8 old fruit. I wasnt a LL fan til this season....massive improvement.

A flanker at 8?!?!? I miss Eddie.

he has played 8 for saints pretty well

At least he’ll be used to a retreating pack

[Mellsblue]

We’re both wrong. Lawes, Curry & Earl, obvs.

[Banquo]

austin wants lawes, earl curry

[Beasties]

austin wants lawes, earl curry

Why?

[Danno]

austin wants lawes, earl curry

Why?

[Puja]

We’re both wrong. Lawes, Curry & Earl, obvs.

It was the fact that he just announced it as a clear and obvious fact that made it so awful. Who looks TCurry, JWillis, and Ludlam and thinks, "You know what we need? Ben Earl!"

On the fitting a quart into a pint pot, I think TCurry has to be back in after showing that kind of form straight away and, if you're doing that, Dombrandt is the weakest player of our current back row starters. I wouldn't be dropping Dombrandt just for the sake of dropping Dombrandt, but if someone's gotta go, he's first in line.

Puja

[Banquo]

austin wants lawes, earl curry

Why?

'balance'....I suppose he's thinking lineout/big hits, pace, all round ability to link it all up in that order. In isolation just naming a back row doesn't make much sense anyway- how does it work with the rest of pack/game plan etc. But it wouldn't be my choice of back row even in isolation.

[Oakboy]

Ahead of all other considerations should be the simple contention that J Willis is our best back rower and must start.

There are claims from others after that. I'd have Earl behind quite a few and I'm not sure about picking Lawes without significant club game time.

I'd pick Curry and Willis on the flanks and I'd stick with Dombrandt for the Wales game before making a permanent decision on him.

Ludlam has been good but he provides exactly the right bench presence. Selection involves tough decisions and he is not as good as Willis or Curry.

[Which Tyler]

I think JWillis may just be our best backrow; but he just doesn't have the body of evidence, and world class play on the international stage, that TCurry has (or Underhill, for that matter).

Those 2 are clearly our best backrowers, with Underhill 3rd (albeit on reputation currently, but then it's hard to confirm or deny reputation whilst out in the cold) - but then, JWillis is unconfirmed potential at this stage, despite looking to the manor born.

[Puja]

Ahead of all other considerations should be the simple contention that J Willis is our best back rower and must start.

There are claims from others after that. I'd have Earl behind quite a few and I'm not sure about picking Lawes without significant club game time.

I'd pick Curry and Willis on the flanks and I'd stick with Dombrandt for the Wales game before making a permanent decision on him.

Ludlam has been good but he provides exactly the right bench presence. Selection involves tough decisions and he is not as good as Eillis or Curry.

I think that, if we are keeping Dombrandt, then we should probably keep Ludlam and have TCurry on the bench. Ludlam has been one of our best players, has been in the training camp since the beginning and knows everything that we're doing, and dropping him for TCurry sends the wrong message - that it doesn't matter how well you play, the big name will boot you out after just one game back.

Interestingly, a google tells me that JWillis did not play for Toulouse this weekend. Did he have to be released and then return or did he stay with England?

Puja

[fivepointer]

Ludlam has 2 first rate performances behind him. He offers a lot to this team, with and without the ball. I wouldnt drop him.

[Oakboy]

Ahead of all other considerations should be the simple contention that J Willis is our best back rower and must start.

There are claims from others after that. I'd have Earl behind quite a few and I'm not sure about picking Lawes without significant club game time.

I'd pick Curry and Willis on the flanks and I'd stick with Dombrandt for the Wales game before making a permanent decision on him.

Ludlam has been good but he provides exactly the right bench presence. Selection involves tough decisions and he is not as good as Eillis or Curry.

I think that, if we are keeping Dombrandt, then we should probably keep Ludlam and have TCurry on the bench. Ludlam has been one of our best players, has been in the training camp since the beginning and knows everything that we're doing, and dropping him for TCurry sends the wrong message - that it doesn't matter how well you play, the big name will boot you out after just one game back.

Interestingly, a google tells me that JWillis did not play for Toulouse this weekend. Did he have to be released and then return or did he stay with England?

Puja

I see your general point but T Curry a 'big name'? Isn't he just a damned good player? He could make a case for being consistently our best player over a long period.

[Puja]

Ahead of all other considerations should be the simple contention that J Willis is our best back rower and must start.

There are claims from others after that. I'd have Earl behind quite a few and I'm not sure about picking Lawes without significant club game time.

I'd pick Curry and Willis on the flanks and I'd stick with Dombrandt for the Wales game before making a permanent decision on him.

Ludlam has been good but he provides exactly the right bench presence. Selection involves tough decisions and he is not as good as Eillis or Curry.

I think that, if we are keeping Dombrandt, then we should probably keep Ludlam and have TCurry on the bench. Ludlam has been one of our best players, has been in the training camp since the beginning and knows everything that we're doing, and dropping him for TCurry sends the wrong message - that it doesn't matter how well you play, the big name will boot you out after just one game back.

Interestingly, a google tells me that JWillis did not play for Toulouse this weekend. Did he have to be released and then return or did he stay with England?

Puja

I see your general point but T Curry a 'big name'? Isn't he just a damned good player? He could make a case for being consistently our best player over a long period.

Not unfair, and his performance the other day has certainly assuaged any concerns that he might be rusty. However, I'd still say he'd be coming back into the XV 90% on reputation and previous form, and it doesn't feel right to drop someone who is playing well in favour of someone on reputation.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

What would qualify as a big name? He’s the 50-cap wonderkid, untouchable British and Irish Lion. Curry has generally been very good (though I think people are sometimes blinded to his dodgy decision making and playing like a bit of a headless chicken at times) but Ludlam has been fantastic these last two games. No way should Ludlam be dropped.

I want Mr Blobby to get a run, but if anyone is losing their spot it’s him. Not that I buy any of Ludlam, Curry or Earl as proper 8s.

Still feel bad for Ben Curry. May we’ll have missed his chance for a good while longer.

coming back in one game after injury for

[Beasties]

Surely the simple answer is also the most obvious? Same back row with TC on the bench. I remain completely uninterested with Earl as an Eng player, good as he is in the Sarries team. Ludlam deserves his spot through standard of performance. Happy to accommodate him right now.

[Banquo]

Surely the simple answer is also the most obvious? Same back row with TC on the bench. I remain completely uninterested with Earl as an Eng player, good as he is in the Sarries team. Ludlam deserves his spot through standard of performance. Happy to accommodate him right now.

Maybe- but if Stuffy Boredick thinks Tom Curry is a nailed on starter then we don't have many games to bed down yet another combo in a newish back 5 with a newish midfield. Its very tricky- esp when you throw Lawes into the mix.

[Beasties]

Surely the simple answer is also the most obvious? Same back row with TC on the bench. I remain completely uninterested with Earl as an Eng player, good as he is in the Sarries team. Ludlam deserves his spot through standard of performance. Happy to accommodate him right now.

Maybe- but if Stuffy Boredick thinks Tom Curry is a nailed on starter then we don't have many games to bed down yet another combo in a newish back 5 with a newish midfield. Its very tricky- esp when you throw Lawes into the mix.

Three games left. Plenty of time for TC to slot back in. All depends on the JW situation though.

[FKAS]

Surely the simple answer is also the most obvious? Same back row with TC on the bench. I remain completely uninterested with Earl as an Eng player, good as he is in the Sarries team. Ludlam deserves his spot through standard of performance. Happy to accommodate him right now.

I'd agree with this, keep the backrow the same but replace Isiekwe and Earl with Lawes and Curry on the bench. We haven't looked great in the last quarter of games so being able to bring both of them on to try and change that would be beneficial.

[Banquo]

Surely the simple answer is also the most obvious? Same back row with TC on the bench. I remain completely uninterested with Earl as an Eng player, good as he is in the Sarries team. Ludlam deserves his spot through standard of performance. Happy to accommodate him right now.

Maybe- but if Stuffy Boredick thinks Tom Curry is a nailed on starter then we don't have many games to bed down yet another combo in a newish back 5 with a newish midfield. Its very tricky- esp when you throw Lawes into the mix.

Three games left. Plenty of time for TC to slot back in. All depends on the JW situation though.

Not sure about that.
I do think Ludlam should be keeping his place tho. So its tricky.

[Oakboy]

Ludlam has been good but he has played, this 6N, in a defeat against Scotland and a victory against Italy. Compared with Curry's peformances against all the top countries, his two are encouraging but not a claim to permanent possession of the shirt. I think it is simply more important to get Curry back in harness. His ceiling is higher.

[Banquo]

Ludlam has been good but he has played, this 6N, in a defeat against Scotland and a victory against Italy. Compared with Curry's peformances against all the top countries, his two are encouraging but not a claim to permanent possession of the shirt. I think it is simply more important to get Curry back in harness. His ceiling is higher.

Its not necessarily Ludlam v Curry though- and actually I think Ludlam hasn't yet reached his full potential- a year ago, I wouldn't have had him any where near the team, but his development has been huge since then; he's also excellent in the lineout, and I think he could also get fitter. I'd say he's a more dynamic carrier than Curry as well. Curry is the better rugby player at present though.

We have several back rows who all have very different strengths- how you best match them is what Beery Steerforth is paid for,

(I'd also say you have anointed Jack Willis on the back of one victory v Italy and no body of work against top countries- I think he's great, but you have to apply standards consistently )

[Oakboy]

Ludlam has been good but he has played, this 6N, in a defeat against Scotland and a victory against Italy. Compared with Curry's peformances against all the top countries, his two are encouraging but not a claim to permanent possession of the shirt. I think it is simply more important to get Curry back in harness. His ceiling is higher.

Its not necessarily Ludlam v Curry though- and actually I think Ludlam hasn't yet reached his full potential- a year ago, I wouldn't have had him any where near the team, but his development has been huge since then; he's also excellent in the lineout, and I think he could also get fitter. I'd say he's a more dynamic carrier than Curry as well. Curry is the better rugby player at present though.

We have several back rows who all have very different strengths- how you best match them is what Beery Steerforth is paid for,

(I'd also say you have anointed Jack Willis on the back of one victory v Italy and no body of work against top countries- I think he's great, but you have to apply standards consistently )

But, if Ludlam has potential left in the tank on the basis of this 6N, Willis based on the same must have hell of a lot more (if we are being consistent????). I think Curry has it in the bank to claim a shirt and it then becomes either/or with Willis/Ludlam.

[Banquo]

Ludlam has been good but he has played, this 6N, in a defeat against Scotland and a victory against Italy. Compared with Curry's peformances against all the top countries, his two are encouraging but not a claim to permanent possession of the shirt. I think it is simply more important to get Curry back in harness. His ceiling is higher.

Its not necessarily Ludlam v Curry though- and actually I think Ludlam hasn't yet reached his full potential- a year ago, I wouldn't have had him any where near the team, but his development has been huge since then; he's also excellent in the lineout, and I think he could also get fitter. I'd say he's a more dynamic carrier than Curry as well. Curry is the better rugby player at present though.

We have several back rows who all have very different strengths- how you best match them is what Beery Steerforth is paid for,

(I'd also say you have anointed Jack Willis on the back of one victory v Italy and no body of work against top countries- I think he's great, but you have to apply standards consistently )

But, if Ludlam has potential left in the tank on the basis of this 6N, Willis based on the same must have hell of a lot more (if we are being consistent????). I think Curry has it in the bank to claim a shirt and it then becomes either/or with Willis/Ludlam.

as I said, no dispute that Willis is excellent. Not sure re your logic there- Willis has always looked tip top whereas Ludlam has materially stepped up this season.

[Mellsblue]

Warburton has obviously been reading this thread and has offered his opinion in The Times today. It was either a bit muddled or I wasn’t fully awake when I read it but the highlights are:
- Curry is the best 7 and should be straight back in the jersey
- Willis and Lawes to fight for the 6 jersey with a horses for courses approach, eg Lawes in vs France for lineout purposes and Willis vs Wales for breakdown ‘bite’.
- He prefers Lawes at lock but worries he is now too light.
- Honourable mention for Ludlam who he thinks has been ‘the emotional heartbeat of England’s defence’ but Curry can replicate that and more
- Complimentary about Dombo.
- Doesn’t mention Earl.