Decent, maybe. But ‘our 8’ yesterday should have been ripping up trees against that game plan.
On what basis? I just can’t understand how you watch that game and make that statement unless it’s to continue a lazy and unfair narrative against Dombrandt?
Oh I forgot. Any slight against Big Dom is assumed to be ‘lazy narrative’. For the record, from the out I said he should be starting the first 3 games whatever. Do I want Billy back, no, do I wish Cannone had an English mum, yes.
I also didn’t say he had a bad game nor should be dropped for French game. That said I do think he should have had more impact yesterday, shouldn’t have been outplayed by his opposite number and will be owned by the French physicality. And I like the player,
Did Faletau outplay Dombrandt though, or did he, as a high class, highly experienced international just have some good moments that stood out amongst the muck his team mates were serving up.
The whole pack is going to news to step up its physicality against the French and Irish so singling Dombrandt out now is a bit unfair, plus, even if they all. Do find another 10% well still end up getting beasted if Faz manages our possession that poorly again.
Danno wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:55 pm
Dombrandt was decent today, certainly wasn't the issue and held onto the ball.
Decent, maybe. But ‘our 8’ yesterday should have been ripping up trees against that game plan.
On what basis? I just can’t understand how you watch that game and make that statement unless it’s to continue a lazy and unfair narrative against Dombrandt?
Decent, maybe. But ‘our 8’ yesterday should have been ripping up trees against that game plan.
On what basis? I just can’t understand how you watch that game and make that statement unless it’s to continue a lazy and unfair narrative against Dombrandt?
Don’t you start. I spell decent correctly then get my arse slapped. I tell ya!
Dombrandt is not a world-beater yet but a 10-15% improvement, game-on-game is fine. He has a good skill-set and is looking confident more of the time. If he can deliver consistently for 80 minutes he could be the answer. Time will tell and he deserves more of it.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 4:43 pm
Dombrandt is not a world-beater yet but a 10-15% improvement, game-on-game is fine. He has a good skill-set and is looking confident more of the time. If he can deliver consistently for 80 minutes he could be the answer. Time will tell and he deserves more of it.
I’ve not posted before. It occurred to me today that I was just so pleased that Eddie Jones has gone. I completely lost interest in watching England play rugby under him.
Part of the fun in watching as a middle aged man is seeing the growth of young men as they fulfil their potential and dreams. Under Eddie, all the players seemed to get smaller and more scared. He seemed to have no sense of proportion.
He was always trying to prove he was smarter than everyone else. And the players (and fans) were collateral damage in him trying to fight old battles. I just didn’t like it. Even if he could have come good and won us the World Cup later this year, it wouldn’t have been worth it.
Veyqun wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:12 pm
I’ve not posted before. It occurred to me today that I was just so pleased that Eddie Jones has gone. I completely lost interest in watching England play rugby under him.
Part of the fun in watching as a middle aged man is seeing the growth of young men as they fulfil their potential and dreams. Under Eddie, all the players seemed to get smaller and more scared. He seemed to have no sense of proportion.
He was always trying to prove he was smarter than everyone else. And the players (and fans) were collateral damage in him trying to fight old battles. I just didn’t like it. Even if he could have come good and won us the World Cup later this year, it wouldn’t have been worth it.
Veyqun wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:12 pmHe was always trying to prove he was smarter than everyone else. And the players (and fans) were collateral damage in him trying to fight old battles.
Veyqun wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:12 pm
I’ve not posted before. It occurred to me today that I was just so pleased that Eddie Jones has gone. I completely lost interest in watching England play rugby under him.
Part of the fun in watching as a middle aged man is seeing the growth of young men as they fulfil their potential and dreams. Under Eddie, all the players seemed to get smaller and more scared. He seemed to have no sense of proportion.
He was always trying to prove he was smarter than everyone else. And the players (and fans) were collateral damage in him trying to fight old battles. I just didn’t like it. Even if he could have come good and won us the World Cup later this year, it wouldn’t have been worth it.
I am optimistic about the Borthwick era.
I'd be more optimistic if Borthwick were to bite the bullet and heave Farrell, who is holding back the development of the team.
Veyqun wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:12 pm
I’ve not posted before. It occurred to me today that I was just so pleased that Eddie Jones has gone. I completely lost interest in watching England play rugby under him.
Part of the fun in watching as a middle aged man is seeing the growth of young men as they fulfil their potential and dreams. Under Eddie, all the players seemed to get smaller and more scared. He seemed to have no sense of proportion.
He was always trying to prove he was smarter than everyone else. And the players (and fans) were collateral damage in him trying to fight old battles. I just didn’t like it. Even if he could have come good and won us the World Cup later this year, it wouldn’t have been worth it.
Veyqun wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:12 pm
I’ve not posted before. It occurred to me today that I was just so pleased that Eddie Jones has gone. I completely lost interest in watching England play rugby under him.
Part of the fun in watching as a middle aged man is seeing the growth of young men as they fulfil their potential and dreams. Under Eddie, all the players seemed to get smaller and more scared. He seemed to have no sense of proportion.
He was always trying to prove he was smarter than everyone else. And the players (and fans) were collateral damage in him trying to fight old battles. I just didn’t like it. Even if he could have come good and won us the World Cup later this year, it wouldn’t have been worth it.
I am optimistic about the Borthwick era.
Bang on. Thank you.
I am delighted that a new poster gets praised for his condemnation of the horrible Australian's regime!
All well and good (and get the sentiment over how some players reacted to EJ) until you remember the terrible state our team was in, in 2015. We then went unbeaten under Eddie for ages (a calendar year, which is pretty rare), won a GS and a championship and got to the final of the RWC - so he actually performed a remarkable turnaround in 4 years. I will however acknowledge that from then I'd say he lost the plot a tad. PTSD from PSTD, and he should have fallen on his sword earlier.
Was the team in a worse state post-RWC 15 than when Borthwick took over? That's not my assertion, I'm genuinely just struggling to remember or be objective - given I liked Burt and didn't like Jones. Getting knocked out was awful, but it felt like something of a freak thing at the time, whereas we've currently all been ground down to the point that winning 1 from 5 against Scotland, getting booed at home etc. just seems normal.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:50 am
Eddie was good/acceptable until autumn 2020, imo. It was downhill from there, on and off the pitch.
yeah I was trying to pinpoint the moment and it was very covid at the time. As said, I think he became obsessed with beating SA and that shaped what he did.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:49 am
Was the team in a worse state post-RWC 15 than when Borthwick took over? That's not my assertion, I'm genuinely just struggling to remember or be objective - given I liked Burt and didn't like Jones. Getting knocked out was awful, but it felt like something of a freak thing at the time, whereas we've currently all been ground down to the point that winning 1 from 5 against Scotland, getting booed at home etc. just seems normal.
Yes- it was bad. Sam Burgess etc.
For all EJ's faults, he put a remarkable series of results together, especially early on. Even in his latter days we beat Oz away- yes they were pretty weak, but still away, and drew with NZ (freak ten minutes etc etc). But the antipathy towards him was inevitable- which I absolutely get....once we stopped winning consistently, his judge me by results approach with his eccentric demeanour was always going to annoy. As an aside, all the community coaches and club that Eddie has coached at, have nothing but praise for him. But he had to go- most coaches have a sell by date with teams, and his had passed, probably post 2019 RWC.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:49 am
Was the team in a worse state post-RWC 15 than when Borthwick took over? That's not my assertion, I'm genuinely just struggling to remember or be objective - given I liked Burt and didn't like Jones. Getting knocked out was awful, but it felt like something of a freak thing at the time, whereas we've currently all been ground down to the point that winning 1 from 5 against Scotland, getting booed at home etc. just seems normal.
Yes- it was bad. Sam Burgess etc.
For all EJ's faults, he put a remarkable series of results together, especially early on. Even in his latter days we beat Oz away- yes they were pretty weak, but still away, and drew with NZ (freak ten minutes etc etc). But the antipathy towards him was inevitable- which I absolutely get....once we stopped winning consistently, his judge me by results approach with his eccentric demeanour was always going to annoy. As an aside, all the community coaches and club that Eddie has coached at, have nothing but praise for him. But he had to go- most coaches have a sell by date with teams, and his had passed, probably post 2019 RWC.
That post/reply-exchange rather highlights the range of opinion. Jones's initial run of victories over-rode everything else in the RFU's attitude to him, IMO. It justified their mistake in appointing him in the first place. Was it high-class coaching that achieved that run, though? Obviously, the guy in charge gets praise for success and criticism for failure. As ever, none of us can have it both ways. Winning trumps style. Jones could claim absolutely zilch for me if he was NOT winning. Long-term, the hindsight view of him will be that he was not good for English rugby, I suspect.
The jury is out on his successor as it is on the true extent of the re-build job now necessary.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:49 am
Was the team in a worse state post-RWC 15 than when Borthwick took over? That's not my assertion, I'm genuinely just struggling to remember or be objective - given I liked Burt and didn't like Jones. Getting knocked out was awful, but it felt like something of a freak thing at the time, whereas we've currently all been ground down to the point that winning 1 from 5 against Scotland, getting booed at home etc. just seems normal.
Yes- it was bad. Sam Burgess etc.
I actually wrote 'bungled midfield selections aside' and then deleted it. That seemed almost entirely about this agreement to crowbar Burgess in the RWC team somewhere and Lancaster panicking. I just don't remember what else there was to it. Robshaw at 7 and making some dodgy decisions was one. We certainly didn't have the same quality of players available back then.
Last edited by Mikey Brown on Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:49 am
Was the team in a worse state post-RWC 15 than when Borthwick took over? That's not my assertion, I'm genuinely just struggling to remember or be objective - given I liked Burt and didn't like Jones. Getting knocked out was awful, but it felt like something of a freak thing at the time, whereas we've currently all been ground down to the point that winning 1 from 5 against Scotland, getting booed at home etc. just seems normal.
Yes- it was bad. Sam Burgess etc.
I actually wrote 'bungled midfield selections aside' and then deleted it. That seemed almost entirely about this agreement to crowbar Burgess in the RWC team somewhere and Lancaster panicking. I just don't remember what else there was to it. Robshaw at 7 and making some dodgy decisions was one. We certainly didn't have the same quality of players available back then.
It was more than just Burgess, hence etc...they weren't well coached, didn't really seem to have much of a plan. Which is odd when you look at what Burt, Farrell and Catt have done subsequently; they were all newbies relatively to intl rugby, so I guess it helped their development.
Eddie took a similar quality of players and group to a GS and a long winning streak. So I'd argue the 'team' was in a worse state and he made something of it; as you say, the players Eddie bequeathed to Staid Bundlefish are of a higher quality probably than he himself inherited; he did bring through a good crop of young uns.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:49 am
Was the team in a worse state post-RWC 15 than when Borthwick took over? That's not my assertion, I'm genuinely just struggling to remember or be objective - given I liked Burt and didn't like Jones. Getting knocked out was awful, but it felt like something of a freak thing at the time, whereas we've currently all been ground down to the point that winning 1 from 5 against Scotland, getting booed at home etc. just seems normal.
Yes- it was bad. Sam Burgess etc.
For all EJ's faults, he put a remarkable series of results together, especially early on. Even in his latter days we beat Oz away- yes they were pretty weak, but still away, and drew with NZ (freak ten minutes etc etc). But the antipathy towards him was inevitable- which I absolutely get....once we stopped winning consistently, his judge me by results approach with his eccentric demeanour was always going to annoy. As an aside, all the community coaches and club that Eddie has coached at, have nothing but praise for him. But he had to go- most coaches have a sell by date with teams, and his had passed, probably post 2019 RWC.
That post/reply-exchange rather highlights the range of opinion. Jones's initial run of victories over-rode everything else in the RFU's attitude to him, IMO. It justified their mistake in appointing him in the first place. Was it high-class coaching that achieved that run, though? Obviously, the guy in charge gets praise for success and criticism for failure. As ever, none of us can have it both ways. Winning trumps style. Jones could claim absolutely zilch for me if he was NOT winning. Long-term, the hindsight view of him will be that he was not good for English rugby, I suspect.
The jury is out on his successor as it is on the true extent of the re-build job now necessary.
Reversing a pretty long period of misery at intl level for England should not be sniffed at- I think he is/was a high class coach, and yes it was his galvanising effect that got results and an excellent period of achievement for England. As pointed out by our SH buddies in advance, eventually his attritional style wears thin with a given group of players. He's hard work and very demanding- and as I said before, most coaches run out of gas with the same team. I think he did a terrific job until mid 2020, when his time had maybe come.
So I sit in a more moderate position than some others, acknowledging the good results he obtained taking over at a difficult time, and well done on a very good World Cup....but then also acknowledging that I was wrong in holding out the hope for the last year or so of his reign that he could get us to peak again.
Other than Jones’s, erm, unique personality I think the problems of the two regimes were very similar, ie muddled thinking with tactics, untouchable players and random chopping and changing in the midfield. I think Jones’s legacy looks/feels worse because of his personality and that he was allowed to go on far too long.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:44 am
Other than Jones’s, erm, unique personality I think the problems of the two regimes were very similar, ie muddled thinking with tactics, untouchable players and random chopping and changing in the midfield. I think Jones’s legacy looks/feels worse because of his personality and that he was allowed to go on far too long.
Their records are not remotely comparable though. Eddie still has the highest win percentage of any England coach, inc SCW. He definitely got confused post RWC, and imo it was because he was trying and failing to find a winning formula for the next RWC.
Oh I forgot. Any slight against Big Dom is assumed to be ‘lazy narrative’. For the record, from the out I said he should be starting the first 3 games whatever. Do I want Billy back, no, do I wish Cannone had an English mum, yes.
