Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:44 am
Other than Jones’s, erm, unique personality I think the problems of the two regimes were very similar, ie muddled thinking with tactics, untouchable players and random chopping and changing in the midfield. I think Jones’s legacy looks/feels worse because of his personality and that he was allowed to go on far too long.
Their records are not remotely comparable though. Eddie still has the highest win percentage of any England coach, inc SCW. He definitely got confused post RWC, and imo it was because he was trying and failing to find a winning formula for the next RWC.
There's a point where it is true that he was experimenting to find a way to win the next WC and that saw results suffer, but I think there would have been much more sympathy for a drop off in results for that had he
A) actually been more open about it.
B) not apparently been planning to fight the last war in seemingly trying to find his own answer to PSDT and mucking lots of players about in the process.
C) apparently decided to neglect trying to build an even semi successful base game plan and set piece for his position less pods to build on.
D) not gotten into a weird position of hyper loyalty to a core of regulars but a revolving door for everyone else.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:44 am
Other than Jones’s, erm, unique personality I think the problems of the two regimes were very similar, ie muddled thinking with tactics, untouchable players and random chopping and changing in the midfield. I think Jones’s legacy looks/feels worse because of his personality and that he was allowed to go on far too long.
Their records are not remotely comparable though. Eddie still has the highest win percentage of any England coach, inc SCW. He definitely got confused post RWC, and imo it was because he was trying and failing to find a winning formula for the next RWC.
There's a point where it is true that he was experimenting to find a way to win the next WC and that saw results suffer, but I think there would have been much more sympathy for a drop off in results for that had he
A) actually been more open about it.
B) not apparently been planning to fight the last war in seemingly trying to find his own answer to PSDT and mucking lots of players about in the process.
C) apparently decided to neglect trying to build an even semi successful base game plan and set piece for his position less pods to build on.
D) not gotten into a weird position of hyper loyalty to a core of regulars but a revolving door for everyone else.
Yep, as i said before, he lost the plot........then the dressing room, then the crowd, then the RFU.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:44 am
Other than Jones’s, erm, unique personality I think the problems of the two regimes were very similar, ie muddled thinking with tactics, untouchable players and random chopping and changing in the midfield. I think Jones’s legacy looks/feels worse because of his personality and that he was allowed to go on far too long.
I don't think Borthwick has muddled tactics, you might not like the tactics and the team is still gelling but the tactics are pretty clear.
Untouchable players? Ask Ben Youngs how untouchable he was. Farrell is under a lot of pressure and would probably be riding the bench if Borthwick had a fully fit flyhalf he trusted.
Chopping and changing the midfield? Same midfield the last two games. Tried something on the first game it didn't work and then settled on what we have now.
I feel we have more direction under Borthwick and everything feels a bit calmer, the frustration is that team is taking time to gel and so we're seeing passages of play that are riddled with errors. Hopefully the stability in selection will help us improve again for the Ireland and France games. 10 is still a huge issue but I can live with Malins for now, the pack works and Slade did alright bar kicking away that overlap (an interview given since says he didn't hear Steward's call it was on in time and looking back at it, it was an error).
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:44 am
Other than Jones’s, erm, unique personality I think the problems of the two regimes were very similar, ie muddled thinking with tactics, untouchable players and random chopping and changing in the midfield. I think Jones’s legacy looks/feels worse because of his personality and that he was allowed to go on far too long.
I don't think Borthwick has muddled tactics, you might not like the tactics and the team is still gelling but the tactics are pretty clear.
Untouchable players? Ask Ben Youngs how untouchable he was. Farrell is under a lot of pressure and would probably be riding the bench if Borthwick had a fully fit flyhalf he trusted.
Chopping and changing the midfield? Same midfield the last two games. Tried something on the first game it didn't work and then settled on what we have now.
I feel we have more direction under Borthwick and everything feels a bit calmer, the frustration is that team is taking time to gel and so we're seeing passages of play that are riddled with errors. Hopefully the stability in selection will help us improve again for the Ireland and France games. 10 is still a huge issue but I can live with Malins for now, the pack works and Slade did alright bar kicking away that overlap (an interview given since says he didn't hear Steward's call it was on in time and looking back at it, it was an error).
all well and good, but he was talking about Lancaster I'd think
On Stove Brainware the kicking tourettes needs eliminating, Faz dropping and imo Malins too. But yes, work in progress.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:44 am
Other than Jones’s, erm, unique personality I think the problems of the two regimes were very similar, ie muddled thinking with tactics, untouchable players and random chopping and changing in the midfield. I think Jones’s legacy looks/feels worse because of his personality and that he was allowed to go on far too long.
Their records are not remotely comparable though. Eddie still has the highest win percentage of any England coach, inc SCW. He definitely got confused post RWC, and imo it was because he was trying and failing to find a winning formula for the next RWC.
Depends which timeframe you use for their record. I couldn’t care less about anything from the previous RWC cycle… whilst very happy to give him the kudos those first four years deserve.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:44 am
Other than Jones’s, erm, unique personality I think the problems of the two regimes were very similar, ie muddled thinking with tactics, untouchable players and random chopping and changing in the midfield. I think Jones’s legacy looks/feels worse because of his personality and that he was allowed to go on far too long.
Their records are not remotely comparable though. Eddie still has the highest win percentage of any England coach, inc SCW. He definitely got confused post RWC, and imo it was because he was trying and failing to find a winning formula for the next RWC.
Depends which timeframe you use for their record. I couldn’t care less about anything from the previous RWC cycle… whilst very happy to give him the kudos those first four years deserve.
Also not comparable therefore, as Burt only had one cycle. But compares well in the round to any coach- even his bad times had some decent results, if pants in style.
Not sure why I'm defending him either, because the last year was plain annoying
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:44 am
Other than Jones’s, erm, unique personality I think the problems of the two regimes were very similar, ie muddled thinking with tactics, untouchable players and random chopping and changing in the midfield. I think Jones’s legacy looks/feels worse because of his personality and that he was allowed to go on far too long.
I don't think Borthwick has muddled tactics, you might not like the tactics and the team is still gelling but the tactics are pretty clear.
Untouchable players? Ask Ben Youngs how untouchable he was. Farrell is under a lot of pressure and would probably be riding the bench if Borthwick had a fully fit flyhalf he trusted.
Chopping and changing the midfield? Same midfield the last two games. Tried something on the first game it didn't work and then settled on what we have now.
I feel we have more direction under Borthwick and everything feels a bit calmer, the frustration is that team is taking time to gel and so we're seeing passages of play that are riddled with errors. Hopefully the stability in selection will help us improve again for the Ireland and France games. 10 is still a huge issue but I can live with Malins for now, the pack works and Slade did alright bar kicking away that overlap (an interview given since says he didn't hear Steward's call it was on in time and looking back at it, it was an error).
all well and good, but he was talking about Lancaster I'd think
On Stove Brainware the kicking tourettes needs eliminating, Faz dropping and imo Malins too. But yes, work in progress.
Ah ok. Yes I'd agree Lancaster's thinking was very muddled.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:44 am
Other than Jones’s, erm, unique personality I think the problems of the two regimes were very similar, ie muddled thinking with tactics, untouchable players and random chopping and changing in the midfield. I think Jones’s legacy looks/feels worse because of his personality and that he was allowed to go on far too long.
I don't think Borthwick has muddled tactics, you might not like the tactics and the team is still gelling but the tactics are pretty clear.
Untouchable players? Ask Ben Youngs how untouchable he was. Farrell is under a lot of pressure and would probably be riding the bench if Borthwick had a fully fit flyhalf he trusted.
Chopping and changing the midfield? Same midfield the last two games. Tried something on the first game it didn't work and then settled on what we have now.
I feel we have more direction under Borthwick and everything feels a bit calmer, the frustration is that team is taking time to gel and so we're seeing passages of play that are riddled with errors. Hopefully the stability in selection will help us improve again for the Ireland and France games. 10 is still a huge issue but I can live with Malins for now, the pack works and Slade did alright bar kicking away that overlap (an interview given since says he didn't hear Steward's call it was on in time and looking back at it, it was an error).
all well and good, but he was talking about Lancaster I'd think
On Stove Brainware the kicking tourettes needs eliminating, Faz dropping and imo Malins too. But yes, work in progress.
I suppose it is not unheard of to drop the captain, but it's quite rare. Borthwick made himself look a bit daft when the first thing he did was to anoint a poorly-performing Faz, who continues his exponential downhill progress. So the question is whether Sore Bentnose will have the cojones to cut him adrift. Ultimately, he may have no choice if Faz keeps playing his current dross, but it will probably be later than sooner.
I don't think Borthwick has muddled tactics, you might not like the tactics and the team is still gelling but the tactics are pretty clear.
Untouchable players? Ask Ben Youngs how untouchable he was. Farrell is under a lot of pressure and would probably be riding the bench if Borthwick had a fully fit flyhalf he trusted.
Chopping and changing the midfield? Same midfield the last two games. Tried something on the first game it didn't work and then settled on what we have now.
I feel we have more direction under Borthwick and everything feels a bit calmer, the frustration is that team is taking time to gel and so we're seeing passages of play that are riddled with errors. Hopefully the stability in selection will help us improve again for the Ireland and France games. 10 is still a huge issue but I can live with Malins for now, the pack works and Slade did alright bar kicking away that overlap (an interview given since says he didn't hear Steward's call it was on in time and looking back at it, it was an error).
all well and good, but he was talking about Lancaster I'd think
On Stove Brainware the kicking tourettes needs eliminating, Faz dropping and imo Malins too. But yes, work in progress.
I suppose it is not unheard of to drop the captain, but it's quite rare. Borthwick made himself look a bit daft when the first thing he did was to anoint a poorly-performing Faz, who continues his exponential downhill progress. So the question is whether Sore Bentnose will have the cojones to cut him adrift. Ultimately, he may have no choice if Faz keeps playing his current dross, but it will probably be later than sooner.
But does Scabby Bentnostril even think Faz is playing poorly? I’ve read a number of pundits who think he’s playing well bar the place kicking.
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:24 am
all well and good, but he was talking about Lancaster I'd think
On Stove Brainware the kicking tourettes needs eliminating, Faz dropping and imo Malins too. But yes, work in progress.
I suppose it is not unheard of to drop the captain, but it's quite rare. Borthwick made himself look a bit daft when the first thing he did was to anoint a poorly-performing Faz, who continues his exponential downhill progress. So the question is whether Sore Bentnose will have the cojones to cut him adrift. Ultimately, he may have no choice if Faz keeps playing his current dross, but it will probably be later than sooner.
But does Scabby Bentnostril even think Faz is playing poorly? I’ve read a number of pundits who think he’s playing well bar the place kicking.
I do worry that Scarry Bustseptum - like ALL forwards on the planet- thinks that Farrell is playing well because he runs around like a demented bluebottle.
I suppose it is not unheard of to drop the captain, but it's quite rare. Borthwick made himself look a bit daft when the first thing he did was to anoint a poorly-performing Faz, who continues his exponential downhill progress. So the question is whether Sore Bentnose will have the cojones to cut him adrift. Ultimately, he may have no choice if Faz keeps playing his current dross, but it will probably be later than sooner.
But does Scabby Bentnostril even think Faz is playing poorly? I’ve read a number of pundits who think he’s playing well bar the place kicking.
I do worry that Scarry Bustseptum - like ALL forwards on the planet- thinks that Farrell is playing well because he runs around like a demented bluebottle.
Bill McLaren is alive and well and living in the shires!
I don't think Borthwick has muddled tactics, you might not like the tactics and the team is still gelling but the tactics are pretty clear.
Untouchable players? Ask Ben Youngs how untouchable he was. Farrell is under a lot of pressure and would probably be riding the bench if Borthwick had a fully fit flyhalf he trusted.
Chopping and changing the midfield? Same midfield the last two games. Tried something on the first game it didn't work and then settled on what we have now.
I feel we have more direction under Borthwick and everything feels a bit calmer, the frustration is that team is taking time to gel and so we're seeing passages of play that are riddled with errors. Hopefully the stability in selection will help us improve again for the Ireland and France games. 10 is still a huge issue but I can live with Malins for now, the pack works and Slade did alright bar kicking away that overlap (an interview given since says he didn't hear Steward's call it was on in time and looking back at it, it was an error).
all well and good, but he was talking about Lancaster I'd think
On Stove Brainware the kicking tourettes needs eliminating, Faz dropping and imo Malins too. But yes, work in progress.
I suppose it is not unheard of to drop the captain, but it's quite rare. Borthwick made himself look a bit daft when the first thing he did was to anoint a poorly-performing Faz, who continues his exponential downhill progress. So the question is whether Sore Bentnose will have the cojones to cut him adrift. Ultimately, he may have no choice if Faz keeps playing his current dross, but it will probably be later than sooner.
I agree in part. Although, the most recent captain (Lawes) was unavailable at the time which I would assume played a part in the decision. He might have also wanted the continuity of someone having done the role before? Lastly Farrell was in good form for Saracens going into the 6N. That doesn’t mean I’d have picked him to play, let alone as skipper, but it’s not true to say he was ‘poorly performing’ when selected as captain.
I’d like to think Borthwick has the ‘cojones to cut him adrift’, but I’m not sure? He has a reputation for being pretty brutal, but leaving Farrell out would be a big statement and I’m not sure he’s brave enough to make it …
OTOH, if we lose (as expected) the final 2 games and Farrell is individually poor, there is a decent reason to do it …
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:24 am
all well and good, but he was talking about Lancaster I'd think
On Stove Brainware the kicking tourettes needs eliminating, Faz dropping and imo Malins too. But yes, work in progress.
I suppose it is not unheard of to drop the captain, but it's quite rare. Borthwick made himself look a bit daft when the first thing he did was to anoint a poorly-performing Faz, who continues his exponential downhill progress. So the question is whether Sore Bentnose will have the cojones to cut him adrift. Ultimately, he may have no choice if Faz keeps playing his current dross, but it will probably be later than sooner.
I agree in part. Although, the most recent captain (Lawes) was unavailable at the time which I would assume played a part in the decision. He might have also wanted the continuity of someone having done the role before? Lastly Farrell was in good form for Saracens going into the 6N. That doesn’t mean I’d have picked him to play, let alone as skipper, but it’s not true to say he was ‘poorly performing’ when selected as captain.
I’d like to think Borthwick has the ‘cojones to cut him adrift’, but I’m not sure? He has a reputation for being pretty brutal, but leaving Farrell out would be a big statement and I’m not sure he’s brave enough to make it …
OTOH, if we lose (as expected) the final 2 games and Farrell is individually poor, there is a decent reason to do it …
Trouble is we are then even fewer games from the world cup. I suppose realistically we probably haven't much hope there anyway. And Faz was doing what he has always done for Sarries- albeit in a team with a bit more ambition,( despite having two terrible scrum halves by high standards)- he's always looked a good club 10.
Is Sandra Bullock that worried - at this stage of development - who plays 10? The only time that will be a major concern is if we have back to back games of failing to split the posts. I suppose he could get Slade to have a go once he has finished dribbling the ball up field with his touch finders.
p/d wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:52 pm
Is Sandra Bullock that worried - at this stage of development - who plays 10? The only time that will be a major concern is if we have back to back games of failing to split the posts. I suppose he could get Slade to have a go once he has finished dribbling the ball up field with his touch finders.
he bloody nose should be. If Sheila B Devotion can't see how much its hampering this team....then I don't know what he be looking at. Even Shirley Bassey would know.
I suppose it is not unheard of to drop the captain, but it's quite rare. Borthwick made himself look a bit daft when the first thing he did was to anoint a poorly-performing Faz, who continues his exponential downhill progress. So the question is whether Sore Bentnose will have the cojones to cut him adrift. Ultimately, he may have no choice if Faz keeps playing his current dross, but it will probably be later than sooner.
I agree in part. Although, the most recent captain (Lawes) was unavailable at the time which I would assume played a part in the decision. He might have also wanted the continuity of someone having done the role before? Lastly Farrell was in good form for Saracens going into the 6N. That doesn’t mean I’d have picked him to play, let alone as skipper, but it’s not true to say he was ‘poorly performing’ when selected as captain.
I’d like to think Borthwick has the ‘cojones to cut him adrift’, but I’m not sure? He has a reputation for being pretty brutal, but leaving Farrell out would be a big statement and I’m not sure he’s brave enough to make it …
OTOH, if we lose (as expected) the final 2 games and Farrell is individually poor, there is a decent reason to do it …
Trouble is we are then even fewer games from the world cup. I suppose realistically we probably haven't much hope there anyway. And Faz was doing what he has always done for Sarries- albeit in a team with a bit more ambition,( despite having two terrible scrum halves by high standards)- he's always looked a good club 10.
Yeah - I’m putting all my hopes on the unlikely possibility of Farrell being dropped, but here’s my logic …
As a new head coach, dropping Farrell would have generated a huge amount of heat. More heat that Borthwick might have been prepared to handle (particularly knowing that the squad was in a bad place).
Dropping Farrell after a 6 Nations campaign where he’s performed notably poorly and the media are no longer completely blind to his faults would a very different proposition.
Smith might still be finding his feet at test level, but he’s not a rookie anymore. I expect him to fight for his place and with a fit again Ford, the case for picking Farrell (at 10 anyway) becomes weaker and weaker.
I agree in part. Although, the most recent captain (Lawes) was unavailable at the time which I would assume played a part in the decision. He might have also wanted the continuity of someone having done the role before? Lastly Farrell was in good form for Saracens going into the 6N. That doesn’t mean I’d have picked him to play, let alone as skipper, but it’s not true to say he was ‘poorly performing’ when selected as captain.
I’d like to think Borthwick has the ‘cojones to cut him adrift’, but I’m not sure? He has a reputation for being pretty brutal, but leaving Farrell out would be a big statement and I’m not sure he’s brave enough to make it …
OTOH, if we lose (as expected) the final 2 games and Farrell is individually poor, there is a decent reason to do it …
Trouble is we are then even fewer games from the world cup. I suppose realistically we probably haven't much hope there anyway. And Faz was doing what he has always done for Sarries- albeit in a team with a bit more ambition,( despite having two terrible scrum halves by high standards)- he's always looked a good club 10.
Yeah - I’m putting all my hopes on the unlikely possibility of Farrell being dropped, but here’s my logic …
As a new head coach, dropping Farrell would have generated a huge amount of heat. More heat that Borthwick might have been prepared to handle (particularly knowing that the squad was in a bad place).
Dropping Farrell after a 6 Nations campaign where he’s performed notably poorly and the media are no longer completely blind to his faults would a very different proposition.
Smith might still be finding his feet at test level, but he’s not a rookie anymore. I expect him to fight for his place and with a fit again Ford, the case for picking Farrell (at 10 anyway) becomes weaker and weaker.
