Snap General Election called

[Sandydragon]

Sunak should probably do what Johnson did with dissenters, kick them out. Sunak probably doesn’t feel strong enough to do that, but this constant undermining just lends credibility to the argument that the Tories are in chaos and can’t govern.

Apparently Boris was told on the radio today that Sunaks success with the EU means Johnson’s goose is well and truly cooked with regards to a comeback.

[Which Tyler]

[morepork]

What a repugnant individual. Resorting to soundbites and retreating to a safe place those she is demonising have not the luxury of.

[Which Tyler]

What a repugnant individual. Resorting to soundbites and retreating to a safe place those she is demonising have not the luxury of.

Fortunately, she's not empowering any idiots out there.

No wait...

[Son of Mathonwy]

What a repugnant individual. Resorting to soundbites and retreating to a safe place those she is demonising have not the luxury of.

Fortunately, she's not empowering any idiots out there.

No wait...

What a shame the presenter didn't quiz him on how exactly the SAS would know which people to assassinate, how to tell the smugglers from the smuggled? Or why, if the SAS could get close enough to do this would they not simply apprehend them?

But then he was too busy agreeing with MacKenzie to apply any logic to the sick shit his guest was coming up with.

As for MacKenzie, he seems terrified of socialism, which is on the way, apparently. Hopefully, when it does arrive he'll fuck off to the USA or Israel since he's such a fan of the way they operate.

[Sandydragon]

What a repugnant individual. Resorting to soundbites and retreating to a safe place those she is demonising have not the luxury of.

Fortunately, she's not empowering any idiots out there.

No wait...

Bloody hell! Whilst I hold precisely zero sympathy for people smugglers and they do deserve locking up, the suggestion that the SAS is about to go and assassinate them outside of the rule of law is just incredible. The legal disclaimer, several minutes after he spoke, was just pathetic. Any sensible new channel would have stopped the interview and not aired it.

[Which Tyler]

Bloody hell! Whilst I hold precisely zero sympathy for people smugglers and they do deserve locking up, the suggestion that the SAS is about to go and assassinate them outside of the rule of law is just incredible. The legal disclaimer, several minutes after he spoke, was just pathetic. Any sensible new channel would have stopped the interview and not aired it.

What about tweeting it with apparent pride, after the event?

[Sandydragon]

Bloody hell! Whilst I hold precisely zero sympathy for people smugglers and they do deserve locking up, the suggestion that the SAS is about to go and assassinate them outside of the rule of law is just incredible. The legal disclaimer, several minutes after he spoke, was just pathetic. Any sensible new channel would have stopped the interview and not aired it.

What about tweeting it with apparent pride, after the event?

Yeah but they aren’t condoning violence.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Love the Tories looking after the richest with their pension giveaways. And the explanation - to persuade NHS consultants not to retire. Total BS - if this this the rationale, why not target it at doctors (or just pay them more)? Why give it to all high earners? Another big tax break for the rich - thankfully Labour have promised to reverse it.

[Banquo]

Love the Tories looking after the richest with their pension giveaways. And the explanation - to persuade NHS consultants not to retire. Total BS - if this this the rationale, why not target it at doctors (or just pay them more)? Why give it to all high earners? Another big tax break for the rich - thankfully Labour have promised to reverse it.

Its not just consultants, but also GPs and esp getting them to work full time- and they have been very publicly whinging about the issue, and anecdotally I do know some consultants and one GP who have cut back their hours because of this. Also, personally, I retired from corp life and pension contributions on this basis. 1st world problem I know, and it does seem like a massive sledgehammer to crack a nut.

[Puja]

Love the Tories looking after the richest with their pension giveaways. And the explanation - to persuade NHS consultants not to retire. Total BS - if this this the rationale, why not target it at doctors (or just pay them more)? Why give it to all high earners? Another big tax break for the rich - thankfully Labour have promised to reverse it.

Its not just consultants, but also GPs and esp getting them to work full time- and they have been very publicly whinging about the issue, and anecdotally I do know some consultants and one GP who have cut back their hours because of this. Also, personally, I retired from corp life and pension contributions on this basis. 1st world problem I know, and it does seem like a massive sledgehammer to crack a nut.

It's attacking the wrong end of the problem as well. Rather than chucking money at persuading a few doctors to delay retirement for a couple of years and push back the very edge of the precipice, surely the answer is to engage in a massive subsidised training program of doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc. There are so many people in this country who have the brains to retrain into the medical profession, but don't have the financial freedom to do it. It would be a longer term solution (and thus utterly unpalatable to any government looking to gain votes), but it's the only way to stop the endemic personnel shortage.

It would also need to be accompanied by a golden handcuffs arrangement to stop the newly qualified from just pissing off to the private sector. Ten years working for the NHS or you have to repay your training, perhaps? Idk.

Puja

[Banquo]

Love the Tories looking after the richest with their pension giveaways. And the explanation - to persuade NHS consultants not to retire. Total BS - if this this the rationale, why not target it at doctors (or just pay them more)? Why give it to all high earners? Another big tax break for the rich - thankfully Labour have promised to reverse it.

Its not just consultants, but also GPs and esp getting them to work full time- and they have been very publicly whinging about the issue, and anecdotally I do know some consultants and one GP who have cut back their hours because of this. Also, personally, I retired from corp life and pension contributions on this basis. 1st world problem I know, and it does seem like a massive sledgehammer to crack a nut.

It's attacking the wrong end of the problem as well. Rather than chucking money at persuading a few doctors to delay retirement for a couple of years and push back the very edge of the precipice, surely the answer is to engage in a massive subsidised training program of doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc. There are so many people in this country who have the brains to retrain into the medical profession, but don't have the financial freedom to do it. It would be a longer term solution (and thus utterly unpalatable to any government looking to gain votes), but it's the only way to stop the endemic personnel shortage.

It would also need to be accompanied by a golden handcuffs arrangement to stop the newly qualified from just pissing off to the private sector. Ten years working for the NHS or you have to repay your training, perhaps? Idk.

Puja

yep, good plan.

[Sandydragon]

Love the Tories looking after the richest with their pension giveaways. And the explanation - to persuade NHS consultants not to retire. Total BS - if this this the rationale, why not target it at doctors (or just pay them more)? Why give it to all high earners? Another big tax break for the rich - thankfully Labour have promised to reverse it.

Its not just consultants, but also GPs and esp getting them to work full time- and they have been very publicly whinging about the issue, and anecdotally I do know some consultants and one GP who have cut back their hours because of this. Also, personally, I retired from corp life and pension contributions on this basis. 1st world problem I know, and it does seem like a massive sledgehammer to crack a nut.

It's attacking the wrong end of the problem as well. Rather than chucking money at persuading a few doctors to delay retirement for a couple of years and push back the very edge of the precipice, surely the answer is to engage in a massive subsidised training program of doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc. There are so many people in this country who have the brains to retrain into the medical profession, but don't have the financial freedom to do it. It would be a longer term solution (and thus utterly unpalatable to any government looking to gain votes), but it's the only way to stop the endemic personnel shortage.

It would also need to be accompanied by a golden handcuffs arrangement to stop the newly qualified from just pissing off to the private sector. Ten years working for the NHS or you have to repay your training, perhaps? Idk.

Puja

That’s a good medium term plan. Short term, allowing doctors this is probably the only option

[Puja]

Its not just consultants, but also GPs and esp getting them to work full time- and they have been very publicly whinging about the issue, and anecdotally I do know some consultants and one GP who have cut back their hours because of this. Also, personally, I retired from corp life and pension contributions on this basis. 1st world problem I know, and it does seem like a massive sledgehammer to crack a nut.

It's attacking the wrong end of the problem as well. Rather than chucking money at persuading a few doctors to delay retirement for a couple of years and push back the very edge of the precipice, surely the answer is to engage in a massive subsidised training program of doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc. There are so many people in this country who have the brains to retrain into the medical profession, but don't have the financial freedom to do it. It would be a longer term solution (and thus utterly unpalatable to any government looking to gain votes), but it's the only way to stop the endemic personnel shortage.

It would also need to be accompanied by a golden handcuffs arrangement to stop the newly qualified from just pissing off to the private sector. Ten years working for the NHS or you have to repay your training, perhaps? Idk.

Puja

That’s a good medium term plan. Short term, allowing doctors this is probably the only option

I can think of others. Require doctors and nurses to work a certain percentage of hours in the NHS or lose their right to NHS-paid training and development. Go a-poaching abroad for doctors and nurses with liberalised visas and golden handshakes for working exclusively for the NHS, and pay for it with increased tax on private hospital groups. Proffer golden handcuffs to the next graduating class of medical students to keep them in the NHS for 10 years.

The pensions thing is a good idea, were it targetted solely towards medical professionals. As it is, it just feels like a blatant bribe to affluent voters, under the figleaf of helping the health service.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

It's attacking the wrong end of the problem as well. Rather than chucking money at persuading a few doctors to delay retirement for a couple of years and push back the very edge of the precipice, surely the answer is to engage in a massive subsidised training program of doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc. There are so many people in this country who have the brains to retrain into the medical profession, but don't have the financial freedom to do it. It would be a longer term solution (and thus utterly unpalatable to any government looking to gain votes), but it's the only way to stop the endemic personnel shortage.

It would also need to be accompanied by a golden handcuffs arrangement to stop the newly qualified from just pissing off to the private sector. Ten years working for the NHS or you have to repay your training, perhaps? Idk.

Puja

That’s a good medium term plan. Short term, allowing doctors this is probably the only option

I can think of others. Require doctors and nurses to work a certain percentage of hours in the NHS or lose their right to NHS-paid training and development. Go a-poaching abroad for doctors and nurses with liberalised visas and golden handshakes for working exclusively for the NHS, and pay for it with increased tax on private hospital groups. Proffer golden handcuffs to the next graduating class of medical students to keep them in the NHS for 10 years.

The pensions thing is a good idea, were it targetted solely towards medical professionals. As it is, it just feels like a blatant bribe to affluent voters, under the figleaf of helping the health service.

Puja

Phase out private health entirely. This should be the goal, if we want to live in a fair society.

[Puja]

That’s a good medium term plan. Short term, allowing doctors this is probably the only option

I can think of others. Require doctors and nurses to work a certain percentage of hours in the NHS or lose their right to NHS-paid training and development. Go a-poaching abroad for doctors and nurses with liberalised visas and golden handshakes for working exclusively for the NHS, and pay for it with increased tax on private hospital groups. Proffer golden handcuffs to the next graduating class of medical students to keep them in the NHS for 10 years.

The pensions thing is a good idea, were it targetted solely towards medical professionals. As it is, it just feels like a blatant bribe to affluent voters, under the figleaf of helping the health service.

Puja

Phase out private health entirely. This should be the goal, if we want to live in a fair society.

Bang on. Same for private schools. There shouldn't be a higher tier in education or health for the privileged.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

It's attacking the wrong end of the problem as well. Rather than chucking money at persuading a few doctors to delay retirement for a couple of years and push back the very edge of the precipice, surely the answer is to engage in a massive subsidised training program of doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc. There are so many people in this country who have the brains to retrain into the medical profession, but don't have the financial freedom to do it. It would be a longer term solution (and thus utterly unpalatable to any government looking to gain votes), but it's the only way to stop the endemic personnel shortage.

It would also need to be accompanied by a golden handcuffs arrangement to stop the newly qualified from just pissing off to the private sector. Ten years working for the NHS or you have to repay your training, perhaps? Idk.

Puja

That’s a good medium term plan. Short term, allowing doctors this is probably the only option

I can think of others. Require doctors and nurses to work a certain percentage of hours in the NHS or lose their right to NHS-paid training and development. Go a-poaching abroad for doctors and nurses with liberalised visas and golden handshakes for working exclusively for the NHS, and pay for it with increased tax on private hospital groups. Proffer golden handcuffs to the next graduating class of medical students to keep them in the NHS for 10 years.

The pensions thing is a good idea, were it targetted solely towards medical professionals. As it is, it just feels like a blatant bribe to affluent voters, under the figleaf of helping the health service.

Puja

I really hate the idea of poaching medical staff from overseas, and yes I know it happens to us , but trying to fill a large gap by screwing over other countries seems the wrong approach to me.

I’m equally not sure that mandating that people have to work I the NHS after training (which they are already paying for themselves) will work. If private medicine were abolished tomorrow that would just add to the NHS strain n the short term. You need to get the NHS working in its current form before trying to increase the population numbers using it.

[Puja]

That’s a good medium term plan. Short term, allowing doctors this is probably the only option

I can think of others. Require doctors and nurses to work a certain percentage of hours in the NHS or lose their right to NHS-paid training and development. Go a-poaching abroad for doctors and nurses with liberalised visas and golden handshakes for working exclusively for the NHS, and pay for it with increased tax on private hospital groups. Proffer golden handcuffs to the next graduating class of medical students to keep them in the NHS for 10 years.

The pensions thing is a good idea, were it targetted solely towards medical professionals. As it is, it just feels like a blatant bribe to affluent voters, under the figleaf of helping the health service.

Puja

I really hate the idea of poaching medical staff from overseas, and yes I know it happens to us , but trying to fill a large gap by screwing over other countries seems the wrong approach to me.

I’m equally not sure that mandating that people have to work I the NHS after training (which they are already paying for themselves) will work. If private medicine were abolished tomorrow that would just add to the NHS strain n the short term. You need to get the NHS working in its current form before trying to increase the population numbers using it.

Agreed on the ethics of poaching - it's amoral, especially when done to developing countries, but it might be the only way out of the mess we've ended up in and, as long as it's not being touted as a long-term solution, I'm okay with it as a very short-term fix.

On the private sector, they will always find more staff, whether by poaching themselves, increasing costs and increasing salaries, whatever. They're like the Top 14 - they've got the money and will survive on their own merits. You're right that any reduced private capacity will go back onto the NHS, but at the moment, we have one system with the capacity to do an operation next week, and one which can't do it for 14 months - there's a lot of spare capacity in the private sector and, even if we massively strangle their worker supply, it's not going to result in a large number of patients coming back onto the NHS.

As for "workers have already paid for the NHS", the NHS is paying for their professional development and they're working one day there and four days in private, often then getting loaned back to the NHS at extortionate rates when the country pays for overflow to go to private hospitals. One of the major benefits of having a health service is to have a single employer that gets efficiencies by being the only game in town, yet we've somehow managed to fuck that up, because we wanted to have a fast lane for posh people.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

I can think of others. Require doctors and nurses to work a certain percentage of hours in the NHS or lose their right to NHS-paid training and development. Go a-poaching abroad for doctors and nurses with liberalised visas and golden handshakes for working exclusively for the NHS, and pay for it with increased tax on private hospital groups. Proffer golden handcuffs to the next graduating class of medical students to keep them in the NHS for 10 years.

The pensions thing is a good idea, were it targetted solely towards medical professionals. As it is, it just feels like a blatant bribe to affluent voters, under the figleaf of helping the health service.

Puja

I really hate the idea of poaching medical staff from overseas, and yes I know it happens to us , but trying to fill a large gap by screwing over other countries seems the wrong approach to me.

I’m equally not sure that mandating that people have to work I the NHS after training (which they are already paying for themselves) will work. If private medicine were abolished tomorrow that would just add to the NHS strain n the short term. You need to get the NHS working in its current form before trying to increase the population numbers using it.

Agreed on the ethics of poaching - it's amoral, especially when done to developing countries, but it might be the only way out of the mess we've ended up in and, as long as it's not being touted as a long-term solution, I'm okay with it as a very short-term fix.

On the private sector, they will always find more staff, whether by poaching themselves, increasing costs and increasing salaries, whatever. They're like the Top 14 - they've got the money and will survive on their own merits. You're right that any reduced private capacity will go back onto the NHS, but at the moment, we have one system with the capacity to do an operation next week, and one which can't do it for 14 months - there's a lot of spare capacity in the private sector and, even if we massively strangle their worker supply, it's not going to result in a large number of patients coming back onto the NHS.

As for "workers have already paid for the NHS", the NHS is paying for their professional development and they're working one day there and four days in private, often then getting loaned back to the NHS at extortionate rates when the country pays for overflow to go to private hospitals. One of the major benefits of having a health service is to have a single employer that gets efficiencies by being the only game in town, yet we've somehow managed to fuck that up, because we wanted to have a fast lane for posh people.

Puja

A lot of people have private health insurance, not just the upper class. Thats just a socialist trope.

NHS junior doctors complaining about ending up 100k in debt. If that training is free then you have a point; but clearly it isnt so you can't deny them the option to take abetter wage (here or abroad) to pay that off. Morale is already shyte, your plan would make it worse.

The best option is to train a greater number of doctors and nurses and in time that will pay dividends. Until then, tempting (but not forcing) medical staff back to, or to remain in the NHS is the best short term option. And yes, this pension allow issue should have been for NHS pensions only.

[Puja]

A lot of people have private health insurance, not just the upper class. Thats just a socialist trope.

NHS junior doctors complaining about ending up 100k in debt. If that training is free then you have a point; but clearly it isnt so you can't deny them the option to take abetter wage (here or abroad) to pay that off. Morale is already shyte, your plan would make it worse.

The best option is to train a greater number of doctors and nurses and in time that will pay dividends. Until then, tempting (but not forcing) medical staff back to, or to remain in the NHS is the best short term option. And yes, this pension allow issue should have been for NHS pensions only.

A lot of people have private health insurance because the NHS has been utterly broken and, if you can get out of it, it makes sense to. I would be one of them if it wasn't for my medical issues making me thoroughly uninsurable. If we had a working system, most of them wouldn't.

The training I'm talking about is their ongoing professional development, not the initial training (which I had said as an earlier point, I would be looking to subsidise to create a new generation of health workers). I'd also be in favour of cancelling the student loans (while the Conservatives bay, "How much would that cost?!?!" whenever it's suggested, student loans are largely imaginary money and would not require a capital lump sum to "repay", just a reduction in future income like removing any tax), which wouldn't hurt morale. Most of my suggestions are golden handcuffs, not diktats and deprivations - I'm aware that we can't come in with draconian measures. Even so, it's galling that we're paying for their professional development, which they then immediately take to the private sector.

We're in agreement on the best option. I'm just enervated that no-one in government seems to be interested in doing it.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

A lot of people have private health insurance, not just the upper class. Thats just a socialist trope.

NHS junior doctors complaining about ending up 100k in debt. If that training is free then you have a point; but clearly it isnt so you can't deny them the option to take abetter wage (here or abroad) to pay that off. Morale is already shyte, your plan would make it worse.

The best option is to train a greater number of doctors and nurses and in time that will pay dividends. Until then, tempting (but not forcing) medical staff back to, or to remain in the NHS is the best short term option. And yes, this pension allow issue should have been for NHS pensions only.

A lot of people have private health insurance because the NHS has been utterly broken and, if you can get out of it, it makes sense to. I would be one of them if it wasn't for my medical issues making me thoroughly uninsurable. If we had a working system, most of them wouldn't.

The training I'm talking about is their ongoing professional development, not the initial training (which I had said as an earlier point, I would be looking to subsidise to create a new generation of health workers). I'd also be in favour of cancelling the student loans (while the Conservatives bay, "How much would that cost?!?!" whenever it's suggested, student loans are largely imaginary money and would not require a capital lump sum to "repay", just a reduction in future income like removing any tax), which wouldn't hurt morale. Most of my suggestions are golden handcuffs, not diktats and deprivations - I'm aware that we can't come in with draconian measures. Even so, it's galling that we're paying for their professional development, which they then immediately take to the private sector.

We're in agreement on the best option. I'm just enervated that no-one in government seems to be interested in doing it.

Puja

OK, so many who use private NHS aren't posh. Agreed.

Ongoing professional development happens in most occupations. Doesn't stop me for example from changing employer, and yet my skills have very much been developed in the public sector (still in it actually but in theory I can walk any time I want). Ive seen employers apply salary returns for training which then results in an employee leaving. Its somewhat dubious, so I can't see it being enforced.

[Puja]

OK, so many who use private NHS aren't posh. Agreed.

Okay, I see where the disconnect is - the reason why we kept having a private health service at all when the NHS was formed was because the posh wanted their own lane, same as why public schools survived the national education system. My original point was that private health's existence is because of posh people. It's clearly not just used by them now, cause the NHS is so broken that people feel they have to.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

OK, so many who use private NHS aren't posh. Agreed.

Okay, I see where the disconnect is - the reason why we kept having a private health service at all when the NHS was formed was because the posh wanted their own lane, same as why public schools survived the national education system. My original point was that private health's existence is because of posh people. It's clearly not just used by them now, cause the NHS is so broken that people feel they have to.

Puja

That’s fair, but the issue today is that removing private care would be detrimental to a lot of people without actually making the actual NHS better. I get, through work, an app where I can get doctors appointments online (free, work pays) although I then need to pay for any prescriptions (No difference there). Now I agree that many employers are looking at things like this because it’s cheaper than waiting for staff to be seen and cured on the actual NHS. But removing private services like that won’t help the people who are also waiting to see a GP and who now have me in the queue as well. Which is why class based debates should be consigned to the NHS of the 1940s and not today.

[Puja]

OK, so many who use private NHS aren't posh. Agreed.

Okay, I see where the disconnect is - the reason why we kept having a private health service at all when the NHS was formed was because the posh wanted their own lane, same as why public schools survived the national education system. My original point was that private health's existence is because of posh people. It's clearly not just used by them now, cause the NHS is so broken that people feel they have to.

Puja

That’s fair, but the issue today is that removing private care would be detrimental to a lot of people without actually making the actual NHS better. I get, through work, an app where I can get doctors appointments online (free, work pays) although I then need to pay for any prescriptions (No difference there). Now I agree that many employers are looking at things like this because it’s cheaper than waiting for staff to be seen and cured on the actual NHS. But removing private services like that won’t help the people who are also waiting to see a GP and who now have me in the queue as well. Which is why class based debates should be consigned to the NHS of the 1940s and not today.

I disagree - the private sector has got a ridiculous amount of spare capacity compared to the NHS, so moving the burden and the resources across to the National Health Service will result in overall reductions in time spent waiting for care (note, before I'm accused of anything, I'm not talking about shutting down private (yet), but still about incentivising medical professionals to stay in the NHS rather than shuttling across at the first opportunity).

In addition, the cost savings for the NHS would be something incredible - the money spent on placing NHS patients through private care, because the NHS can't cope, is incredible. Not to mention the cost of hiring agency nurses and locums.

Puja

[J Dory]

Agreed on the ethics of poaching - it's amoral, especially when done to developing countries, but it might be the only way out of the mess we've ended up in and, as long as it's not being touted as a long-term solution, I'm okay with it as a very short-term fix.

Puja

Yes folks, it's ok to fuck over poor countries as long as it's only for a little while.