Ireland to finish

[Puja]

We know it’s desperate times when the likes of T Willy, D Kelly, T Pearsy and Z Mercy are all definite, indisputable, surefire improvements on what we have.
I’d like Salmon Bouillabaisse to make a few selectoral tweaks but the idea that were just picking the wrong players and a phalanx of better players are waiting in the wings is for the birds, imo.

Agreed. We have a cadre of "quite good" players in the wings, but I don't think any of them are going to be game-changers. Dan Kelly especially, whom I've seen metamorphose into a guaranteed capable international option every time he's been injured and unable to be selected.

Puja

[Banquo]

We know it’s desperate times when the likes of T Willy, D Kelly, T Pearsy and Z Mercy are all definite, indisputable, surefire improvements on what we have.
I’d like Salmon Bouillabaisse to make a few selectoral tweaks but the idea that were just picking the wrong players and a phalanx of better players are waiting in the wings is for the birds, imo.

Beat me to it (and Colliery). Saffron Burrows has a big job to get us remotely competitive from what we've seen of top oppo to date.

[FKAS]

We know it’s desperate times when the likes of T Willy, D Kelly, T Pearsy and Z Mercy are all definite, indisputable, surefire improvements on what we have.
I’d like Salmon Bouillabaisse to make a few selectoral tweaks but the idea that were just picking the wrong players and a phalanx of better players are waiting in the wings is for the birds, imo.

Agreed. We have a cadre of "quite good" players in the wings, but I don't think any of them are going to be game-changers. Dan Kelly especially, whom I've seen metamorphose into a guaranteed capable international option every time he's been injured and unable to be selected.

Puja

Accurate.

I do think some of the quite good players might slot in and play well within the game plan we have.

Being able to bring back TCurry and Lawes will be a significant boost in terms of leadership and experience. As boring as those things are we are quite short on caps in the back five of the scrum if you exclude Itoje. Next highest is Ludlam with 19 caps.

[Banquo]

We know it’s desperate times when the likes of T Willy, D Kelly, T Pearsy and Z Mercy are all definite, indisputable, surefire improvements on what we have.
I’d like Salmon Bouillabaisse to make a few selectoral tweaks but the idea that were just picking the wrong players and a phalanx of better players are waiting in the wings is for the birds, imo.

Agreed. We have a cadre of "quite good" players in the wings, but I don't think any of them are going to be game-changers. Dan Kelly especially, whom I've seen metamorphose into a guaranteed capable international option every time he's been injured and unable to be selected.

Puja

Accurate.

I do think some of the quite good players might slot in and play well within the game plan we have.

Being able to bring back TCurry and Lawes will be a significant boost in terms of leadership and experience. As boring as those things are we are quite short on caps in the back five of the scrum if you exclude Itoje. Next highest is Ludlam with 19 caps.

We have a game plan? . Not sure its the right one tbh- maybe if we eliminate kadabbi, get throught the tackle line ball in hand and smarten up the breakdown it has more of a chance. Oh, and get fitter.

I agree on the leadership and experience......but we also need quality, every unit, once more.

[Mikey Brown]

A pointless contribution probably but I saw a clip posted of the 2019 final and, although the focus of it was the incredible springboks defence, it was crazy to see the way the Vunipolas both moved. They really looked like completely different players.

I feel like Billy might well have another burst of quality, but he’s so unreliable even when playing well for Saracens and sounds like he’s had a pretty major bust up with Steve-o. Mako just looks completely done.

[Banquo]

A pointless contribution probably but I saw a clip posted of the 2019 final and, although the focus of it was the incredible springboks defence, it was crazy to see the way the Vunipolas both moved. They really looked like completely different players.

I feel like Billy might well have another burst of quality, but he’s so unreliable even when playing well for Saracens and sounds like he’s had a pretty major bust up with Steve-o. Mako just looks completely done.

Billy seems to be losing the ball in contact a lot, its strange.

[badback]

Not a bad side given options. But biggest concerns to me are whether slade will defend well enough in wide channels. And the backrow looks inexperienced and callow. Glad Ribbans is there.

[Puja]

A pointless contribution probably but I saw a clip posted of the 2019 final and, although the focus of it was the incredible springboks defence, it was crazy to see the way the Vunipolas both moved. They really looked like completely different players.

I feel like Billy might well have another burst of quality, but he’s so unreliable even when playing well for Saracens and sounds like he’s had a pretty major bust up with Steve-o. Mako just looks completely done.

Billy seems to be losing the ball in contact a lot, its strange.

It was always a weakness of his, right back from his Wasps days. I think the difference was that, at his peak, he was dominating the contact hard enough that the ball wasn't under any pressure. Now that he's slowed down a yard or two, it's more likely that a defender can get in a decent hit or a strip on the ball.

Puja

[FKAS]

Agreed. We have a cadre of "quite good" players in the wings, but I don't think any of them are going to be game-changers. Dan Kelly especially, whom I've seen metamorphose into a guaranteed capable international option every time he's been injured and unable to be selected.

Puja

Accurate.

I do think some of the quite good players might slot in and play well within the game plan we have.

Being able to bring back TCurry and Lawes will be a significant boost in terms of leadership and experience. As boring as those things are we are quite short on caps in the back five of the scrum if you exclude Itoje. Next highest is Ludlam with 19 caps.

We have a game plan? . Not sure its the right one tbh- maybe if we eliminate kadabbi, get throught the tackle line ball in hand and smarten up the breakdown it has more of a chance. Oh, and get fitter.

I agree on the leadership and experience......but we also need quality, every unit, once more.

Yeah I mean rugby is a fairly easy game when you get over the tackle line ball in hand. Unfortunately international defences don't generally make it that easy, if they did Nick Evans wouldn't be required.

The game plan is the Borthwick game plan. We knew what we were getting. It does give scope for the players to make decisions though which isn't working out so well

[SixAndAHalf]

We know it’s desperate times when the likes of T Willy, D Kelly, T Pearsy and Z Mercy are all definite, indisputable, surefire improvements on what we have.
I’d like Salmon Bouillabaisse to make a few selectoral tweaks but the idea that were just picking the wrong players and a phalanx of better players are waiting in the wings is for the birds, imo.

Agreed. We have a cadre of "quite good" players in the wings, but I don't think any of them are going to be game-changers. Dan Kelly especially, whom I've seen metamorphose into a guaranteed capable international option every time he's been injured and unable to be selected.

Puja

Accurate.

I do think some of the quite good players might slot in and play well within the game plan we have.

Being able to bring back TCurry and Lawes will be a significant boost in terms of leadership and experience. As boring as those things are we are quite short on caps in the back five of the scrum if you exclude Itoje. Next highest is Ludlam with 19 caps.

I'm assuming it is due to squad issues (which is ridiculous) but we have stuck with a number of players who don't appear to be international class through this series: Mako; Dombrandt; BYoungs; Isiekwe (maybe Walker but we have barely seen him, which I suppose says everything) plus the likes of Sinckler; George; Ludlam; Malins; Slade who don't appear consistent enough to be top tier internationals.

The elephant in the room is Farrell who has been re-instated as captain despite being fairly limited - sets quite a low ceiling on the team having him as 10.

The addition of TCurry, Lawes and Ford plus the integration of Arundell should see an improvement. Also personally a big fan of Freeman as he looked a natural international when he played and I'd also still have a look at Jonny Hill as he's a big unit who had started to impose himself on games.

Unsure if there will be time to integrate all of these pre World Cup but I think VRR, Mercer and Kelly could all be good internationals. Martin and / or Ted Hill are good big blindsides if Lawes is unavailable. Our 9s building experience will be helpful though I think Quirke has the highest ceiling and hes barely featured due to injury.

Tighthead and Hooker (unless LCD is available) look like key issues in the short and medium term - any chance Barbeary goes back to hooker when returning from injury otherwise I think we are pining over barely tested options at Prem level like Theo Dan!

[fivepointer]

If we're serious about raising our bar we have to compare ourselves with the best teams. Sure, we have a lot of good players but standouts are few and far between.
If you want to look at how far we've fallen look at the line ups for last weekend and this.
How many England players get picked ahead of their French and Irish counterparts?
SB's challenge - and i would say Prem rugby and the RFU too - is to get our very good players to reach the next level. Plus, we have to start producing more players in certain positions (12, 2 and 3 in particular) and get the ones we have a whole lot better.

[jngf]

Agreed. We have a cadre of "quite good" players in the wings, but I don't think any of them are going to be game-changers. Dan Kelly especially, whom I've seen metamorphose into a guaranteed capable international option every time he's been injured and unable to be selected.

Puja

Accurate.

I do think some of the quite good players might slot in and play well within the game plan we have.

Being able to bring back TCurry and Lawes will be a significant boost in terms of leadership and experience. As boring as those things are we are quite short on caps in the back five of the scrum if you exclude Itoje. Next highest is Ludlam with 19 caps.

I'm assuming it is due to squad issues (which is ridiculous) but we have stuck with a number of players who don't appear to be international class through this series: Mako; Dombrandt; BYoungs; Isiekwe (maybe Walker but we have barely seen him, which I suppose says everything) plus the likes of Sinckler; George; Ludlam; Malins; Slade who don't appear consistent enough to be top tier internationals.

The elephant in the room is Farrell who has been re-instated as captain despite being fairly limited - sets quite a low ceiling on the team having him as 10.

The addition of TCurry, Lawes and Ford plus the integration of Arundell should see an improvement. Also personally a big fan of Freeman as he looked a natural international when he played and I'd also still have a look at Jonny Hill as he's a big unit who had started to impose himself on games.

Unsure if there will be time to integrate all of these pre World Cup but I think VRR, Mercer and Kelly could all be good internationals. Martin and / or Ted Hill are good big blindsides if Lawes is unavailable. Our 9s building experience will be helpful though I think Quirke has the highest ceiling and hes barely featured due to injury.

Tighthead and Hooker (unless LCD is available) look like key issues in the short and medium term - any chance Barbeary goes back to hooker when returning from injury otherwise I think we are pining over barely tested options at Prem level like Theo Dan!

Have to disagree with you about Ludlam’s consistency I think he’s shown this 6 Nations that he’s our best test 6 (or blindside flanker for those who don’t like shirt numbers) by a significant margin. Massive improvement on Lawtoje!

[Which Tyler]

Pleased for Arundell. Lets hope he gets the odd pass.

Outside Fazlet and Manu, the passes will be "odd"

[Mikey Brown]

My turn.

Faz is the odd pass player.

[Mellsblue]

Interesting. Itoje the work horse. George key to our attack and Dombrandt a defensive ruck monster (that effectiveness stat…). Who’d have thunk it.

[Mellsblue]

This OPTA thread is brilliant.
kaBADdi

[FKAS]

This OPTA thread is brilliant.
kaBADdi

Will probably be the only thing Wales finish top of this 6N.

[TheDasher]

We know it’s desperate times when the likes of T Willy, D Kelly, T Pearsy and Z Mercy are all definite, indisputable, surefire improvements on what we have.
I’d like Salmon Bouillabaisse to make a few selectoral tweaks but the idea that were just picking the wrong players and a phalanx of better players are waiting in the wings is for the birds, imo.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that they're definite, indisputable, surefire improvements, that would be an odd thing to do... not sure anyone is.

I was making the point that he does have talented, interesting options to look at post 6ns, players with talent, presumably drive and motivation to wear a white shirt and who have at times excelled or stood out in club rugby at a young age.

Not for one minute suggesting they'll take us to immediate glory, but that in what is a relatively weak talent pool, there are still some potentially very interesting options.

Not sure that's an outlandish claim.

[Puja]

This OPTA thread is brilliant.
kaBADdi

Considering the number of aimless kicks they sent down Steward's throat in the England game, that's quite impressive!

Cannone is a beast on those ruck marks. 7th highest in the whole 6N and 93.3% effectiveness rate.

Puja

[Banquo]

Accurate.

I do think some of the quite good players might slot in and play well within the game plan we have.

Being able to bring back TCurry and Lawes will be a significant boost in terms of leadership and experience. As boring as those things are we are quite short on caps in the back five of the scrum if you exclude Itoje. Next highest is Ludlam with 19 caps.

We have a game plan? . Not sure its the right one tbh- maybe if we eliminate kadabbi, get throught the tackle line ball in hand and smarten up the breakdown it has more of a chance. Oh, and get fitter.

I agree on the leadership and experience......but we also need quality, every unit, once more.

Yeah I mean rugby is a fairly easy game when you get over the tackle line ball in hand. Unfortunately international defences don't generally make it that easy, if they did Nick Evans wouldn't be required.

The game plan is the Borthwick game plan. We knew what we were getting. It does give scope for the players to make decisions though which isn't working out so well

Thanks for that insight , I'd be lost without you The fact is that we aren't, so what's your point, as Evans is in place.

Then you have to ask a question- do coaches automatically bring a copyrighted game plan, or do they actually look at the players they have and decide? (a- does my patented plan work with these players, or b- do I need a different one. Jones had a very different game plan with us at day 1, to what he had with Japan, which again was different to the Brumbies and Oz).

[Banquo]

If we're serious about raising our bar we have to compare ourselves with the best teams. Sure, we have a lot of good players but standouts are few and far between.
If you want to look at how far we've fallen look at the line ups for last weekend and this.
How many England players get picked ahead of their French and Irish counterparts?
SB's challenge - and i would say Prem rugby and the RFU too - is to get our very good players to reach the next level. Plus, we have to start producing more players in certain positions (12, 2 and 3 in particular) and get the ones we have a whole lot better.

Its been true for quite a long time- I might have mentioned it before - and you are right, its a combination of things that need doing. It seems esp bad at the mo, because some of our established players are underperforming, there's a lot of inexperience in the back row, and some players are just struggling. I've said for ages that we produce plenty of young skilled talent, but it doesn't get converted into top talent when transitioning to adult rugby- multiple reasons, but alignment between RFU and PRL, plus pressure on results...and imo the nature of the Prem (which is entertaining tbf, but how tough is it in intensity terms- its physically attritional, but that's not the same thing). Lots to sort out- needs leadership from both the RFU and the clubs.

[Mellsblue]

We know it’s desperate times when the likes of T Willy, D Kelly, T Pearsy and Z Mercy are all definite, indisputable, surefire improvements on what we have.
I’d like Salmon Bouillabaisse to make a few selectoral tweaks but the idea that were just picking the wrong players and a phalanx of better players are waiting in the wings is for the birds, imo.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that they're definite, indisputable, surefire improvements, that would be an odd thing to do... not sure anyone is.

I was making the point that he does have talented, interesting options to look at post 6ns, players with talent, presumably drive and motivation to wear a white shirt and who have at times excelled or stood out in club rugby at a young age.

Not for one minute suggesting they'll take us to immediate glory, but that in what is a relatively weak talent pool, there are still some potentially very interesting options.

Not sure that's an outlandish claim.

Yeah, it’s a just reaction to this idea that if you list the next cabs off the rank they’ll def be better than the incumbents when 9/10 there’s a reason the incumbent is playing and the next cab off the rank isn’t.
You mention Underhill who spends more time concussed than playing, Collier who I think is an average Prem player, Stuart who has had more bad than good games for Eng albeit his most recent ones are his good ones, OHC who has looked poor so far and then a bunch with potential but who have proved nothing.
Who is not in the squad who you look at and think he could be world class? Quirke at a push maybe…

[Banquo]

A pointless contribution probably but I saw a clip posted of the 2019 final and, although the focus of it was the incredible springboks defence, it was crazy to see the way the Vunipolas both moved. They really looked like completely different players.

I feel like Billy might well have another burst of quality, but he’s so unreliable even when playing well for Saracens and sounds like he’s had a pretty major bust up with Steve-o. Mako just looks completely done.

Billy seems to be losing the ball in contact a lot, its strange.

It was always a weakness of his, right back from his Wasps days. I think the difference was that, at his peak, he was dominating the contact hard enough that the ball wasn't under any pressure. Now that he's slowed down a yard or two, it's more likely that a defender can get in a decent hit or a strip on the ball.

Puja

it was a weakness at wasps, tru dat, but definitely disappeared in his heyday, so you may be right....may also be that Sarries are looking for a bit more fluidity, so looking for offloads. Either way, a shame, because I think he'd be a handy player instead of AD frankly.

[Banquo]

Not a bad side given options. But biggest concerns to me are whether slade will defend well enough in wide channels. And the backrow looks inexperienced and callow. Glad Ribbans is there.

Same concerns as last week, so I think you may have your answer.

[Banquo]

Accurate.

I do think some of the quite good players might slot in and play well within the game plan we have.

Being able to bring back TCurry and Lawes will be a significant boost in terms of leadership and experience. As boring as those things are we are quite short on caps in the back five of the scrum if you exclude Itoje. Next highest is Ludlam with 19 caps.

I'm assuming it is due to squad issues (which is ridiculous) but we have stuck with a number of players who don't appear to be international class through this series: Mako; Dombrandt; BYoungs; Isiekwe (maybe Walker but we have barely seen him, which I suppose says everything) plus the likes of Sinckler; George; Ludlam; Malins; Slade who don't appear consistent enough to be top tier internationals.

The elephant in the room is Farrell who has been re-instated as captain despite being fairly limited - sets quite a low ceiling on the team having him as 10.

The addition of TCurry, Lawes and Ford plus the integration of Arundell should see an improvement. Also personally a big fan of Freeman as he looked a natural international when he played and I'd also still have a look at Jonny Hill as he's a big unit who had started to impose himself on games.

Unsure if there will be time to integrate all of these pre World Cup but I think VRR, Mercer and Kelly could all be good internationals. Martin and / or Ted Hill are good big blindsides if Lawes is unavailable. Our 9s building experience will be helpful though I think Quirke has the highest ceiling and hes barely featured due to injury.

Tighthead and Hooker (unless LCD is available) look like key issues in the short and medium term - any chance Barbeary goes back to hooker when returning from injury otherwise I think we are pining over barely tested options at Prem level like Theo Dan!

Have to disagree with you about Ludlam’s consistency I think he’s shown this 6 Nations that he’s our best test 6 (or blindside flanker for those who don’t like shirt numbers) by a significant margin. Massive improvement on Lawtoje!

Mate, you are the one obsessed with shirt numbers, I'm trying to get you to define the jobs that you expect these players to do. Blindside flanker meant something when you played about three phases...now, it means jack, other than packing down, and even then breaks down when in France.
Ludlam was out of his depth by a significant margin v France, and not a patch on the latter day Lawes at 6 ( I have ripped into Lawes for years as a 6, but his last few appearances he's been very good, which is why he played there for the Lions).