Transfer gossip - sometimes even accurate (accidentally) - Season 2022/23

[Oakboy]

No chance of Marcus Smith usurping OF now.

Do you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.

[Which Tyler]

No chance of Marcus Smith usurping OF now.

Rightly so at the moment.
He had his chance during the 6N, complete with the #8 we were told he has to have to hold his hand, and the closest thing we have to the type of IC we're told he has to have to hold his hand.

He'll be in poll position for 2024, but he'll have to wait until then to have another shot at first choice (unless he REALLY rips it up during the warm-ups & pool stages, and even then...).

[Mikey Brown]

I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which. It feels out of character. Were people claiming he wasn’t good because Dombrandt hadn’t been playing? We’re just a bit of a shit team at the moment, in a constant state of flux in basically every single department.

I don’t object to the idea that Smith didn’t take his chance, I just object to the idea that Farrell is doing a whole lot more to actually deserve the shirt.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we can probably count the number of good, commanding fly-half performances for England in the last few years on one hand.

God I’ve not missed discussing Farrell/Smith. I really don’t know why I responded to this. As you were.

[Oakboy]

I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which. It feels out of character. Were people claiming he wasn’t good because Dombrandt hadn’t been playing? We’re just a bit of a shit team at the moment, in a constant state of flux in basically every single department.

I don’t object to the idea that Smith didn’t take his chance, I just object to the idea that Farrell is doing a whole lot more to actually deserve the shirt.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we can probably count the number of good, commanding fly-half performances for England in the last few years on one hand.

God I’ve not missed discussing Farrell/Smith. I really don’t know why I responded to this. As you were.

MB, the snag is highlighted in your 3rd paragraph. That's why we can't leave it alone. Remember, according to Jones, in his time with England, he only worked with two world class players: Itoje and Farrell. Let's get positive vibes going in support of Atkinson (assuming bloody Leicester ever put him in the 10 shirt) or anybody, come to that.

[Which Tyler]

I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which.

I'm not, I'm just not on the Smith-Messiah bandwagon.

If it helps, I'm still anti-Farrell; but at this moment in time, he's rightly ahead of Smith, especially if the pressure's on.

[Mellsblue]

Did Farrell play better than Smith? I certainly didn’t think he did. They were both average but surely we can all agree who has the higher ceiling.
JVP was poor, bring back Ben Youngs!

[Mikey Brown]

I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which.

I'm not, I'm just not on the Smith-Messiah bandwagon.

If it helps, I'm still anti-Farrell; but at this moment in time, he's rightly ahead of Smith, especially if the pressure's on.

I guess I’m just struggling not to associate the “hand-holding” rhetoric with all the bleating Farrelite Twitter morons, apologies, but it’s a reasonable assessment that all our options need accommodations made elsewhere in the side, as it stands.

At the same time I really don’t think dropping Atkinson or Ford in will necessarily take us up a gear without sorting out a hell of a load of other stuff too.

Is that quote about Itoje and Farrell being the only world class players (that Jones coached) a new-ish one?

[Banquo]

No chance of Marcus Smith usurping OF now.

Do you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.

How do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...

[FKAS]

No chance of Marcus Smith usurping OF now.

Do you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.

How do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...

Even when we weren't getting murdered up front neither flyhalf did much.

It's why I have quite a bit of sympathy for JVP who took the brunt of the opposition forwards pressure whilst our pack was getting as you say murdered.

At least the scrum and lineouts worked...

[Oakboy]

No chance of Marcus Smith usurping OF now.

Do you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.

How do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...

you tell me? Take out 'controlling the attacking shape' and substitute 'backing him in all areas' if you like. The point remains that Smith had his club no 8, a 12 to play similarly to the Quins way AND his club coach to encourage/help/guide.

We can go round and round in circles on this. The fact remains that SB and his predecessor see Farrell as the safest FH selection [OR (even worse, IMO) the option is Farrell at 12 if anyone else is picked at 10].

I wanted Smith to succeed at 10 without Farrell at 12. He failed - arguing about the extent to which it was his fault is irrelevant IF the head coach is convinced that in any given situation Farrell would have been better (define 'better' ??????).

[Banquo]

Do you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.

How do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...

you tell me? Take out 'controlling the attacking shape' and substitute 'backing him in all areas' if you like. The point remains that Smith had his club no 8, a 12 to play similarly to the Quins way AND his club coach to encourage/help/guide.

We can go round and round in circles on this. The fact remains that SB and his predecessor see Farrell as the safest FH selection [OR (even worse, IMO) the option is Farrell at 12 if anyone else is picked at 10].

I wanted Smith to succeed at 10 without Farrell at 12. He failed - arguing about the extent to which it was his fault is irrelevant IF the head coach is convinced that in any given situation Farrell would have been better (define 'better' ??????).

I think if you are starting from the point of view that 10's can win games when all around them is a bit sh8t then we can't really take the discussion further.

On the play like quins front, we do bits of it.....but imo don't look fit enough to sustain it at intl level.

[Mellsblue]

Do you still think he is capable of it? Just asking. If Smith could not do it with Evans controlling the attacking shape (presumably), might he just not be up to it? It may sound defeatist but if Ford cannot find a renaissance and go past his previous international standard, I suspect we need a better FH than any of the three of them. Meanwhile, we are stuck with OF.

How do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...

you tell me? Take out 'controlling the attacking shape' and substitute 'backing him in all areas' if you like. The point remains that Smith had his club no 8, a 12 to play similarly to the Quins way AND his club coach to encourage/help/guide.

We can go round and round in circles on this. The fact remains that SB and his predecessor see Farrell as the safest FH selection [OR (even worse, IMO) the option is Farrell at 12 if anyone else is picked at 10].

I wanted Smith to succeed at 10 without Farrell at 12. He failed - arguing about the extent to which it was his fault is irrelevant IF the head coach is convinced that in any given situation Farrell would have been better (define 'better' ??????).

Having your club no8, who is also (fairly) being derided for playing terribly, and a similar 12 doesn’t automatically equal a good platform - and the rest of the backline that bears virtually no resemblance to his club setup. It can help towards it but if your forwards are getting humped by the second best team in the world and your attack ‘patterns’ are kick for pressure then a flyhalf like Smith will fail. He’s further hampered buy a kick return that is light years from that employed by Quins and that fails to induce the unstructured defences that, imo, he exploits better than any other England no10.
I think we need to pray that Ford returns to form otherwise the RWC could be painful viewing.

[stepsider]

I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which. It feels out of character. Were people claiming he wasn’t good because Dombrandt hadn’t been playing? We’re just a bit of a shit team at the moment, in a constant state of flux in basically every single department.

I don’t object to the idea that Smith didn’t take his chance, I just object to the idea that Farrell is doing a whole lot more to actually deserve the shirt.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we can probably count the number of good, commanding fly-half performances for England in the last few years on one hand.

God I’ve not missed discussing Farrell/Smith. I really don’t know why I responded to this. As you were.

MB, the snag is highlighted in your 3rd paragraph. That's why we can't leave it alone. Remember, according to Jones, in his time with England, he only worked with two world class players: Itoje and Farrell. Let's get positive vibes going in support of Atkinson (assuming bloody Leicester ever put him in the 10 shirt) or anybody, come to that.

Atkinson not even on bench for Leicester today. Maybe he'll be offered a wing slot (as with Malins) now Ashton is finally packing up. But apart from those in the EPS, the fly-half factory currently looks out of stock. I now know how the Welsh must be feeling when they see Biggar/Williams on the national team sheet.

The huge disappointment here is that Atkinson has impressed when actually given a chance by Tigers. Part of the fallout from Wasps' demise. At least Haydon-Wood's move to Chiefs is one potential bright light, though he'll take time to adapt to Exeter's playing style.

[FKAS]

I hadn’t realised you were on the anti-Smith bitterness train too, Which. It feels out of character. Were people claiming he wasn’t good because Dombrandt hadn’t been playing? We’re just a bit of a shit team at the moment, in a constant state of flux in basically every single department.

I don’t object to the idea that Smith didn’t take his chance, I just object to the idea that Farrell is doing a whole lot more to actually deserve the shirt.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we can probably count the number of good, commanding fly-half performances for England in the last few years on one hand.

God I’ve not missed discussing Farrell/Smith. I really don’t know why I responded to this. As you were.

MB, the snag is highlighted in your 3rd paragraph. That's why we can't leave it alone. Remember, according to Jones, in his time with England, he only worked with two world class players: Itoje and Farrell. Let's get positive vibes going in support of Atkinson (assuming bloody Leicester ever put him in the 10 shirt) or anybody, come to that.

Atkinson not even on bench for Leicester today. Maybe he'll be offered a wing slot (as with Malins) now Ashton is finally packing up. But apart from those in the EPS, the fly-half factory currently looks out of stock. I now know how the Welsh must be feeling when they see Biggar/Williams on the national team sheet.

The huge disappointment here is that Atkinson has impressed when actually given a chance by Tigers. Part of the fallout from Wasps' demise. At least Haydon-Wood's move to Chiefs is one potential bright light, though he'll take time to adapt to Exeter's playing style.

Tigers have a friendly with Saints on Monday, it's likely that Atkinson will be given the full 80 mins then and possibly next Saturday in the friendly reversal fixture (though Walsh or Meredith might also get a chance). Get a good chunk of minutes into his legs in case we need him at the business end of the season. He'll get plenty of game time at the start of next season as well.

Next season we'll have Fin Smith, Ford, Farrell, Marcus Smith and Haydon-Wood as starters at their clubs. Orlando Bailey being bumped down to back up to accommodate Russell is a blow and George Barton not getting a look in at Glaws doesn't help. Sale have Curtis and Wilkinson where one of them really needs to leave as soon as possible in order to get game time. We might see Louie Johnson come through at Falcons.

[Oakboy]

How do you control attacking shape when you are getting murdered up front? Asking for a friend...

you tell me? Take out 'controlling the attacking shape' and substitute 'backing him in all areas' if you like. The point remains that Smith had his club no 8, a 12 to play similarly to the Quins way AND his club coach to encourage/help/guide.

We can go round and round in circles on this. The fact remains that SB and his predecessor see Farrell as the safest FH selection [OR (even worse, IMO) the option is Farrell at 12 if anyone else is picked at 10].

I wanted Smith to succeed at 10 without Farrell at 12. He failed - arguing about the extent to which it was his fault is irrelevant IF the head coach is convinced that in any given situation Farrell would have been better (define 'better' ??????).

I think if you are starting from the point of view that 10's can win games when all around them is a bit sh8t then we can't really take the discussion further.

On the play like quins front, we do bits of it.....but imo don't look fit enough to sustain it at intl level.

I agree FHs can't win games in poor teams etc. However, that does not stop them playing effectively with what decent ball they do get. Currently and regrettably, I agree with SB that Farrell can do a better job of it than Smith. In effect, we are all saying that Smith can't do it without a better team around him. I simply argue that he was given the best chance possible with the other factors mentioned. I'd not pick him for the RWC, if only two FHs go and if Ford and Farrell are fit. It gives me no pleasure to say that.

[Puja]

The huge disappointment here is that Atkinson has impressed when actually given a chance by Tigers.

He has?

I'd be much happier with him getting proper game time, but I'm taking the consolation that next year he'll have a full pre-season, with a new coach in charge of selection, and will be able to hit the ground running with Pollard away for the RWC. With luck, he'll seize the opportunity and kick on.

Puja

[stepsider]

MB, the snag is highlighted in your 3rd paragraph. That's why we can't leave it alone. Remember, according to Jones, in his time with England, he only worked with two world class players: Itoje and Farrell. Let's get positive vibes going in support of Atkinson (assuming bloody Leicester ever put him in the 10 shirt) or anybody, come to that.

Atkinson not even on bench for Leicester today. Maybe he'll be offered a wing slot (as with Malins) now Ashton is finally packing up. But apart from those in the EPS, the fly-half factory currently looks out of stock. I now know how the Welsh must be feeling when they see Biggar/Williams on the national team sheet.

The huge disappointment here is that Atkinson has impressed when actually given a chance by Tigers. Part of the fallout from Wasps' demise. At least Haydon-Wood's move to Chiefs is one potential bright light, though he'll take time to adapt to Exeter's playing style.

Tigers have a friendly with Saints on Monday, it's likely that Atkinson will be given the full 80 mins then and possibly next Saturday in the friendly reversal fixture (though Walsh or Meredith might also get a chance). Get a good chunk of minutes into his legs in case we need him at the business end of the season. He'll get plenty of game time at the start of next season as well.

Next season we'll have Fin Smith, Ford, Farrell, Marcus Smith and Haydon-Wood as starters at their clubs. Orlando Bailey being bumped down to back up to accommodate Russell is a blow and George Barton not getting a look in at Glaws doesn't help. Sale have Curtis and Wilkinson where one of them really needs to leave as soon as possible in order to get game time. We might see Louie Johnson come through at Falcons.

I'm assuming that Fin Smith will be poached by Scotland, though maybe I'm being too pessimistic there.

[stepsider]

The huge disappointment here is that Atkinson has impressed when actually given a chance by Tigers.

He has?

I'd be much happier with him getting proper game time, but I'm taking the consolation that next year he'll have a full pre-season, with a new coach in charge of selection, and will be able to hit the ground running with Pollard away for the RWC. With luck, he'll seize the opportunity and kick on.

Puja

To my eyes, yes, but I know you don't agree.

[FKAS]

Atkinson not even on bench for Leicester today. Maybe he'll be offered a wing slot (as with Malins) now Ashton is finally packing up. But apart from those in the EPS, the fly-half factory currently looks out of stock. I now know how the Welsh must be feeling when they see Biggar/Williams on the national team sheet.

The huge disappointment here is that Atkinson has impressed when actually given a chance by Tigers. Part of the fallout from Wasps' demise. At least Haydon-Wood's move to Chiefs is one potential bright light, though he'll take time to adapt to Exeter's playing style.

Tigers have a friendly with Saints on Monday, it's likely that Atkinson will be given the full 80 mins then and possibly next Saturday in the friendly reversal fixture (though Walsh or Meredith might also get a chance). Get a good chunk of minutes into his legs in case we need him at the business end of the season. He'll get plenty of game time at the start of next season as well.

Next season we'll have Fin Smith, Ford, Farrell, Marcus Smith and Haydon-Wood as starters at their clubs. Orlando Bailey being bumped down to back up to accommodate Russell is a blow and George Barton not getting a look in at Glaws doesn't help. Sale have Curtis and Wilkinson where one of them really needs to leave as soon as possible in order to get game time. We might see Louie Johnson come through at Falcons.

I'm assuming that Fin Smith will be poached by Scotland, though maybe I'm being too pessimistic there.

As we was in the England 6N sides and Ben Healey has just announced he's picked Scotland over Ireland and agreed to join Edinburgh I think we should be ok. I'd still get him capped in the summer though.

[Mikey Brown]

Sorry am I going completely mad or was this roughly how it played out in the 6 nations?

A game at 10 with Farrell outside,
20 minutes with Farrell at 12,
16 seconds off the bench with Lawrence at 12,
47 minutes with Lawrence at 12 (the rookie being framed as close in quality/impact to Esterhuizen) behind literally the worst forward pack domination we’ve seen for 10 years,
80 minutes on the bench?

[Banquo]

Sorry am I going completely mad or was this roughly how it played out in the 6 nations?

A game at 10 with Farrell outside,
20 minutes with Farrell at 12,
16 seconds off the bench with Lawrence at 12,
47 minutes with Lawrence at 12 (the rookie being framed as close in quality/impact to Esterhuizen) behind literally the worst forward pack domination we’ve seen for 10 years,
80 minutes on the bench?

It’s kinda comedic innit

[Oakboy]

Sorry am I going completely mad or was this roughly how it played out in the 6 nations?

A game at 10 with Farrell outside,
20 minutes with Farrell at 12,
16 seconds off the bench with Lawrence at 12,
47 minutes with Lawrence at 12 (the rookie being framed as close in quality/impact to Esterhuizen) behind literally the worst forward pack domination we’ve seen for 10 years,
80 minutes on the bench?

I think most issues/problems/weaknesses became apparent long before the 6N. Smith as single-handed saviour was far-fetched, to say the least. Debating whether he was given the best chance or not might sound a bit hollow to Tom Willis who was given none while Dombrandt was persevered with.

The only question now is where do we go from here? What is our best XV for the opening RWC match? SB, presumably, has more information on who should be in/out after the 6N. I'd guess that most of his selection decisions will edge on the side of solidity/low-risk rather than flair.

[Mellsblue]

SB, presumably, has more information on who should be in/out after the 6N. I'd guess that most of his selection decisions will edge on the side of solidity/low-risk rather than flair.

I think you are bang on, sadly, albeit I can see why Steaming Blackpudding (yes, I’m had a lovely breakfast this morning) would need to be prosaic for the RWC given time constraints. I’m more interested in where he goes post World Cup… I expect to be disappointed.

[jimKRFC]

Ioan Lloyd leaving Bris at the end of the season to join Scarlets.

Jeff Reece leaving for "over seas" opportunity. Can't blame him given his injury history.

Bristol better have some decent signings to announce or next season is going to be even worse than the last two... Is there relegation next year??

[Mellsblue]

Jeff Reece also gone. Might as well shut the whole operation down.